JGozzo wrote: I got some really good feedback from this thread. Thanks again Cheifeagles and others, and wanted to attemp my smoke unit today. However, the thing that has really stood out here from all of you is, no matter wheather a person uses insulation or wicking, the hole in the bottom needs to be kept clear for the air coming through. my question is, how does one do this by keeping the hole clear, but yet surrounding the element/resistor, with the packing material?Thanks,Joe Gozzo
Thanks,
Joe Gozzo
Joe,The hole needs to be unobstructed and I found having good physical contact between the element and the wicking material to be crucial. You have to pack enough wicking so the element kinda pushes it down when you reinstall the cap but not so much wicking that air can't move around the element. I've never had wicking on top of the element however...can anyone say whether that would be desirable?
I find most of the time with the PE stopped in nuetral the heavier-than-air smoke seeps down the vent holes and around the loose fitting puff piston and comes out the sides of the loco much like a prototype! Love it when it's that good.
Roland
Jumiho,
Thanks for the tip!!
Joe
There are two air holes in the PE smoke unit. Don't let them got covered over with insulation. The air holes are raised, so it's easy to put the insulation around them. I just placed my insulation between them.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I got some really good feedback from this thread. Thanks again Cheifeagles and others, and wanted to attemp my smoke unit today. However, the thing that has really stood out here from all of you is, no matter wheather a person uses insulation or wicking, the hole in the bottom needs to be kept clear for the air coming through. my question is, how does one do this by keeping the hole clear, but yet surrounding the element/resistor, with the packing material?
cheifeagles and Bob,
I really appreciate the quick replies. Thanks so much!
Owens-Corning fiberglass would be yellow if not dyed pink. The color is simply a trademark.
Bob Nelson
JGozzo wrote: WOW!! I have learned some much from this thread, thanks to everyone. I know this has been beaten to death, however, since I have never taken a smoke unit apart. I have a few questions for you experts. 1) How does one remove the cap?Unless it is one of the plastic sealed ones, the metal or plastic top can be removed by bending the tabs back and prying of the top. 2) Does the sock over the resistor have to be replaced, after it has been removed?NO, a big NO. Works better without it.3) Is the fiberglass in the insulation toxic?nope4) Is it just good practice to overlay solder on the heating element before closing and does the cover just snap on?never heard of overlaying element with solder. windings on eleemnt heat up and cause the smoke. I don't and I can make it smoke. Cover [metal for older ones, plastic for new ones] goes back on and "snaps" into place. Now if it is the Polar Express type or older post war type, the lead from the power side can not touch metal. The other side needs a good ground. I've actually taken a small wire and extended the common [referred to by some as ground] side down to the frame on some engines. 5) Did anyone ever post a picture of what it is supposed to look like, after it has been repacked with the insulation?Think Buckeye did on a Polar Express unit several years ago.6) is the yellowish insulation the same as the pink stuff?not the same material. replace it with pink. Also teeky lantern wick has been suggeted. Personally, never tried the wick.7)Why can't Lionel do this BEFORE they ship these things out??too hard headed. Just like their fan driven units. Lots of them have the fan turning counter clockwise. Should turn clockwise. They've been told but seems no one listens. Thanks, Joe
WOW!! I have learned some much from this thread, thanks to everyone. I know this has been beaten to death, however, since I have never taken a smoke unit apart. I have a few questions for you experts.
1) How does one remove the cap?
Unless it is one of the plastic sealed ones, the metal or plastic top can be removed by bending the tabs back and prying of the top.
2) Does the sock over the resistor have to be replaced, after it has been removed?
NO, a big NO. Works better without it.
3) Is the fiberglass in the insulation toxic?
nope
4) Is it just good practice to overlay solder on the heating element before closing and does the cover just snap on?
never heard of overlaying element with solder. windings on eleemnt heat up and cause the smoke. I don't and I can make it smoke. Cover [metal for older ones, plastic for new ones] goes back on and "snaps" into place. Now if it is the Polar Express type or older post war type, the lead from the power side can not touch metal. The other side needs a good ground. I've actually taken a small wire and extended the common [referred to by some as ground] side down to the frame on some engines.
5) Did anyone ever post a picture of what it is supposed to look like, after it has been repacked with the insulation?
Think Buckeye did on a Polar Express unit several years ago.
6) is the yellowish insulation the same as the pink stuff?
not the same material. replace it with pink. Also teeky lantern wick has been suggeted. Personally, never tried the wick.
7)Why can't Lionel do this BEFORE they ship these things out??
too hard headed. Just like their fan driven units. Lots of them have the fan turning counter clockwise. Should turn clockwise. They've been told but seems no one listens.
Good luck.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Forgot to mention it was 100 total. 50 for unit and 50 labor.
Looking at it I am convinced that any one that has a little knowledge about tinkering could instal it with no problem.
Mark
sinkinpat,
Go to tastudios.com
they have a unit that will look like you are sending smoke signals. My neighbor just got his back from them and it is crazy how much smoke is coming out now. They remove the kettle and everything and replace it with a smoke board w/fan
mark
That's a fan driven unit for sure...more smoke than I would need/want inside the living room...but sure looks great doesn't it?
I bought the PE for X mas. we also got more track. I have been intreagued with the smoke. But left wanting more. I did the fiberglass mod mentioned here. but still want more. When I see video's on youtube of other lionel trains with massive amounts of smoke. I think from what I am reading is those engines may have a fan smoke unit. Is this the case? how do I get massive amounts of smoke instead of just the puff puff puff. I get now. Also The smoke seems very transparent. How do I get the white smoke that lingers? Can I upgrade my engines smoke unit.
I want smoke like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZPzl1KvLgE&NR=1
Bobby, I generally use these 3- and 6-ampere, 50-volt diodes from Radio Shack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062577&cp=2032058.2032230.2032269&parentPage=family
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062591&cp=2032058.2032230.2032269&parentPage=family
lionelsoni wrote: I agree that you wouldn't want to drop the voltage in a case like you describe, Roland. However, someone who has the extra voltage to be able to load the locomotive just to get more smoke can accomplish the same thing by dropping the motor voltage.
Right again Bob, except by hi-balling the trains or adding cars I get more smoke without having to touch a solder iron or play with any diodes. (or voiding the warranty for that matter) I figure if I do any soldering for more smoke, I want to preserve the pulling capacity of the loco if I can (by using the hotter element). I'll concede this isn't without safety concerns.
lionelsoni wrote: Bobby, if the 1N4004 works, great. But let me warn others that it is rated only at 1 ampere, which may not be enough for many locomotives. It also has a much higher voltage rating than needed, 200 volts, which of course causes no problem. But it's useful to know that any of that series, 1N4001 (50 volts) to 1N4007 (1000 volts), will work just as well in a toy train.
Bobby, if the 1N4004 works, great. But let me warn others that it is rated only at 1 ampere, which may not be enough for many locomotives. It also has a much higher voltage rating than needed, 200 volts, which of course causes no problem. But it's useful to know that any of that series, 1N4001 (50 volts) to 1N4007 (1000 volts), will work just as well in a toy train.
Yes, your quite rite Bob. I don't run much of a consist. And I'm probably loading those diodes to their max with the little I do run. What would be a comprible 3 amp diode?
Bobby
I agree that you wouldn't want to drop the voltage in a case like you describe, Roland. However, someone who has the extra voltage to be able to load the locomotive just to get more smoke can accomplish the same thing by dropping the motor voltage.
lionelsoni wrote:Rather than have to load the locomotive with more train than you might otherwise want to pull just to get the voltage up on the smoke generator, you could accomplish the same thing by putting something (like rectifier diodes) in series with the motor circuit.
Yes Bob, of course you're right and I had thought of this after reading it mentioned somewhere on the forum...Only problem is you'd end up limiting the max voltage available to the motor and I find I need the maximum voltage I can get to start on hills or pull long consists.
Bob,
That is exactly what I ended up doing to my berk. I added two sets of diodes (1N4004) on one of the motor leads and did a complete repack of the smoke unit. Smokes great now. The pulling power is down with less voltage going to the motor, but I don't pull that many cars anyway.
Perhaps the safest thing to say is just that the power dissipated is the voltage multiplied by the current; and, for a resistive load like a heater, is the square of the (RMS) voltage divided by the resistance.
Rather than have to load the locomotive with more train than you might otherwise want to pull just to get the voltage up on the smoke generator, you could accomplish the same thing by putting something (like rectifier diodes) in series with the motor circuit.
Roland, it was not Radio Shack.
It is an actual electronics shop here in MIch.
I did not save the package since I new what it was for future purchases. I will try to get a manufaturer name and part # for you but it may be some time. I know they are closed the day after X-mas and I am not sure of my scheduleing yet for the holiday week.
Mark, good reporting...! What electronics shop did you find the heater elements at? Was it a radio shack? Do you have a item name and part number? I agree with you that while you may have a good smoker at lower voltages if you pile on a bunch of cars and have to raise the voltage you may burn the element. I would not be averse to replacing the element more frequently so I could get good smoke at lower voltages. I still have my stock element and this morning was pulling 14 PW freight cars with the PE Berk w/trainsounds tender, and it was smoking great, but that's because I had the throttle pegged alot going up hills and around curves pulling all those cars. I normally pull 5 of the polar express cars and it's so easy for the Loco I really don't get terrific smoke...but I do get some and that's way better than none!
Hey bob,
I am not much of an electronice wizard.
And perhaps as I tried to explain I was a bit confusing. Hell I used to call a resistor a diode LOL
I did not have a resistor in line. I was just refering to the #'s on the original Heating element in the PE and may have called things the wrong names.
Mine also said 3 watts and 27 ohms.
What I did was I went to a local electronics shop and showed them what I had and what i wanted to do. They gave me what I am usung today, a 3 watt 21 ohm unit and it worked for me. I saw some that were 18,19, and 20 also. You say the 21 is unusual ! I didn't Know that so I guess I was lucky they had one. Who knows, maybe the 20 would have worked.
I would think one ohm would not make that much a difference, but again not being knowledgable, perhaps I would have burnt the house down :-)
Earlier on in these posts a guy named Jim Trumpie was also talking about I believe an mth smoke heating element that was about 18 ohm's or so. But I did not want to hunt around to find one of those to try.
This is all still confusing to me, but now I have something that works for me and it all started because I found these threads
Thanks to everyones input.
ok so I goofed. I re read my post after posting Dahh !
When I said add on cars -7
What I should have said was I have the loco, 2 tenders, the original 3 cars, and the 4 add ons making it the grand total of the 10 possible cars.
Hey guys it's been a while since I have posted
You are correct with the 3 watts & 27 ohms
You would think it would get really hot but as we all know it does not.
There is some hit and miss with the repacking as we have all read in here. Even mine took a few times and finally a combination of pink insulation and tiki torch fibers at the top layer.
Jt smoke and a slue of others didn't make that much of a difference for me.
What has really worked for me since I like to run at slower speeds to enjoy the train ( As I tell my kids if we wanted speed we would have bought a slot car track ) was changing the heating element. On the cw80 transformer you need to run it at about the 70 or higher mark to produce enough voltage ( not watts ) to get it to heat enough. We all know that at this speed the smoke disipates too much so that it is barely visible.
I changed to a 3 watt 21 ohm element and now get great smoke at between 25 and 40. You can peak it to 50 as I have done a few times but be carefull I do not know how far you can go. I suppose at 3 bucks for the resistor you could easily figure it out. :-)
The other factor is how many cars you run and what it takes volt wise to get them all moving. This includes all the sounds and car lights.
Here is what I run
I have all 7 add on cars I run two tenders one just the whistle tender that came with the set and a train sounds tender that I latched up also. The train sound tender is right behind the loco and a coupler was purchased for the whistle tender for about a buck at my local lionel shop. it mounts to the draw bar easily but what I did was cut the draw bar down and drilled my own hole so that it didn't look so silly in length.
I also have a miniatronics red lamp in my observation car that I installed to replace the red jewel which feeds off the inner lighting. Also a miniatronics fire flicker unit that has a red 1.5 micro bulb that I burried in the artificial flame in the hobo car. It also is fed off the inner car lights.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that the resistor I am useing now may not be the one for every body.
Play around a little with the values that work for you. Just remeber that the more cars you are trying to pull the more voltage you will need to move it but you still will not have the race car speed as when you are only pulling the 3 cars that came with the set.
Hope this helps a little.
When I had my berk apart several months ago, I checked the ceramic resistor out under a magnifying glass (not too much run time yet). I did not write it down, but I thought it said 27ohm and 3W. I took that to mean 3 watts. Would this be correct, since you would expect a 3 watt resistor to get red hot with 6-7 watts running thru it?
Well JT's Mega Steam arrived and I must say the Chief was right...it did seem to make a difference. It smokes better. (not to mention smells great!!) I did repack (..again..) the PE Berk...and had better performance after spending some quality time carefully steel wooling the char off the heater element to try and get it clean. Also great care taken on reassembly to have a nice fluffy pillow of pink to set the element down in. And I made double sure the heater was contacting the insulation. PE smokes nice now...about as good as Jim's video but only at highest throttle settings...less smoke at lower settings. When this element burns out I'm going to experiment with a hotter element. I think for Conventional operators a hotter element is more appropriate. I find myself running at unprototypical speeds ALOT just to make sure there's smoke!!
Buckeye Riveter wrote: lionelsoni wrote: I found these promising words in Wikipedia: "Use in hydroponics"Mineral wool is used for its ability to hold large quantities of water..."Let us know how it works out if you try it!I will do that.For those who want to cut the sock off of the heating element use the scissors on a Swiss Army Knife.
lionelsoni wrote: I found these promising words in Wikipedia: "Use in hydroponics"Mineral wool is used for its ability to hold large quantities of water..."Let us know how it works out if you try it!
I found these promising words in Wikipedia:
"Use in hydroponics
"Mineral wool is used for its ability to hold large quantities of water..."
Let us know how it works out if you try it!
I will do that.
For those who want to cut the sock off of the heating element use the scissors on a Swiss Army Knife.
Great idea.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month