My new TMCC won't do anything - please help [solved]

[SchemerBob]

Yesterday I finally purchased TrainMaster Command Control. I bought the package with the CAB-1 and the command base, and I also bought the TPC 400, to control all of my older engines.

I haven't hooked up the TPC 400 yet because I can't seem to get anything to run at all - not even my TMCC-equipped locomotive. I have a CW-80 transformer that came with the set with my TMCC locomotive. I hooked up the command base, connected the "U" cord to it, plugged it in, put my batteries in the remote, put my TMCC locomotive on the track, powered the CW-80 up to full power, typed in the locomotive's ENG number (1, I assume, since I've never accessed it before) - and nothing happened. Nothing seemed to come on. I went to the back of the manual that came with my set and went through a procedure to re-set my locomotive, but that didn't work either. I have no idea what is wrong. Can anybody help? Thanks.

[chuck]

The Command Base wall wart transformer should have a three prong plug on it.  This needs to be attached to a grounded three prong outlet.  The RF signal for TMCC requires a "ground plane" reference to propogate the carrier signal properly.  Most problems with TMCC are related to this issue.  You can not get a good signal without a proper earth ground on that third prong.

 

Also, watch the red light on the command base.  If it doesn't blink when you press buttons or trun the knob on the CAB-1, something is really wrong.  The CAB-1 keys should alos be generating a gentle peep sound when pressed. 

[SchemerBob]

The Command Base wall wart transformer should have a three prong plug on it.  This needs to be attached to a grounded three prong outlet.  The RF signal for TMCC requires a "ground plane" reference to propogate the carrier signal properly.  Most problems with TMCC are related to this issue.  You can not get a good signal without a proper earth ground on that third prong.

 

Also, watch the red light on the command base.  If it doesn't blink when you press buttons or trun the knob on the CAB-1, something is really wrong.  The CAB-1 keys should alos be generating a gentle peep sound when pressed. 

The red light on the base comes on when I press most of the buttons and turn the knob - the only ones that I press that do not make the base light are the gray buttons on the top of the remote, and the number buttons. They all beep, though.

[chuck]

This means th Command Base and the CAB-1 are talking to each other.  The loco on the track comes up with the headlight on?  Is it on steady or blinking?  You did hit ENG 1 on the CAB-1 before trying to advance the throttle?

[SchemerBob]

This means th Command Base and the CAB-1 are talking to each other.  The loco on the track comes up with the headlight on?  Is it on steady or blinking?  You did hit ENG 1 on the CAB-1 before trying to advance the throttle?

What I did was power up the throttle on the CW-80 to full power, then type in the engine code. Nothing happens, no headlight or anything. I really have no idea what is wrong.

[laz 57]

BOB,

  Let me see if you are doing things right, bear with me.

1. Turn on power to transformer and TMCC.

2. Move handle on transformer to max level 18 volts.

3.  On Cab 1 press ENG button then engine number 1, then hit horn button, you should here the horn or whistle.

4.  To move engine rotate red knob to the right.  Should go.

5.  If doesn't work check under engine that switch is in run position and that the sounds are turned on.

Hope this helps?

laz57

[chuck]

Are you sure you are getting power to the track?  The wire from the command base can be connected to the lockon instead of the terminal on the transformer.  Make sure it goes to the outer rail.

[SchemerBob]

BOB,

  Let me see if you are doing things right, bear with me.

1. Turn on power to transformer and TMCC.

2. Move handle on transformer to max level 18 volts.

3.  On Cab 1 press ENG button then engine number 1, then hit horn button, you should here the horn or whistle.

4.  To move engine rotate red knob to the right.  Should go.

5.  If doesn't work check under engine that switch is in run position and that the sounds are turned on.

Hope this helps?

laz57

I've tried to move the engine after turning everything on, but nothing works - the engine just sits there, no sounds come on or anything.

chuck, I'm using a FasTrack terminal section, and I put the black spade connector from the transformer ("U") on the command base. I assume this cord goes to the outside rail, but maybe not. Nothing comes on at all, not even the lights from the caboose on the end of the train.

[ADCX Rob]

This means th Command Base and the CAB-1 are talking to each other.  The loco on the track comes up with the headlight on?  Is it on steady or blinking?  You did hit ENG 1 on the CAB-1 before trying to advance the throttle?

What I did was power up the throttle on the CW-80 to full power, then type in the engine code. Nothing happens, no headlight or anything. I really have no idea what is wrong.

Is it possible that although you connected the Command Base to the "U" post on the CW-80, the "A" is actually connected to the outside rails?   Or the "other" "U"? (Most of the CW-80 transformers except the most recent issues have the "A" & "B" common, not the 2 "U" posts).  The Command Base binding post has to be connected to the outside rails.

First, set up the train to run in conventional as you have been running(with the Command Base powered down).  When all the electrical checks out, power down everything.

Connect the Command Base "U" post to the SAME WIRE & post as the outside rails(whatever post that is - check the bottom of the Fastrack if you have to), then power up the Command Base first(very important), and then the track power to full. 

Then if there are issues, go through the  reset procedure.

Rob 

[laz 57]

Try pressing tr then 1 and rotate the red knob to get power to the track.  I have to do this on my ZW.

laz57

[chuck]

Try pressing tr then 1 and rotate the red knob to get power to the track.  I have to do this on my ZW.

laz57

The new ZW has PowerMasters built in.  This is why you need the TR command to "wake it up". 

I think there is a basic wiring problem here in that the track isn't getting any power.  Follow Rob's suggestions re conventional mode and then add in the command base.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Try pressing tr then 1 and rotate the red knob to get power to the track.  I have to do this on my ZW.

laz57

Laz, I do a TR then 1 and then hit BOOST on my layout to start everything.  I do not have power to the track unless I do this. 

[sir james I]

wow wait a second, you do not push tr 1 it's eng.1.and the engine headlites should be on before you reach for the buttons.if not your track is not powered. I'll let the experts figure it out, but this much I know.

[ADCX Rob]

Laz, I do a TR then 1 and then hit BOOST on my layout to start everything.  I do not have power to the track unless I do this. 

There should be no reason for this step if there is no TPC or PM-1, & you are using only a CW-80 for power.  Nothing controlling track power with a CW-80 has any RF circuitry to respond to a CAB-1.

Start over in conventional with the Command Base unplugged entirely to verify track power, then follow my instructions above.

Rob 

[Roger Bielen]

Reitterating what's been said in a step by step manner.

1. Connect transformer to track.  Common "U" to outside rail, feed to center rail.

2. Connect Base unit "U" to transformer common "U" either at the transformer or at the track.

3. Plugging both transformer and base into a grounded 3 prong outlet(s)

4. Turn transformer to full power, should have power to track.  If not there is a transformer/wiring problem

5. Since engines come from the factory set at ENG1, on the CAB-1 punch in ENG-1, AUX-1, START (button 3) sounds should come on.

6. As previously said, when issuing commands on the CAB-1 the red light on the base should blink to indicate it's getting the signal.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Laz, I do a TR then 1 and then hit BOOST on my layout to start everything.  I do not have power to the track unless I do this. 

There should be no reason for this step if there is no TPC or PM-1, & you are using only a CW-80 for power.  Nothing controlling track power with a CW-80 has any RF circuitry to respond to a CAB-1.

Start over in conventional with the Command Base unplugged entirely to verify track power, then follow my instructions above.

Rob 

I could be COMPLETELY wrong here, but I was under the impression that a CW-80 could NOT be used as a TMCC powersource.

[ADCX Rob]

Reitterating what's been said in a step by step manner.

1. Connect transformer to track.  Common "U" to outside rail, feed to center rail.

2. Connect Base unit "U" to transformer common "U" either at the transformer or at the track.

Roger, the problem with this instruction is that most of the CW-80 transformers(except for the most recent) do not have the black "U" posts common - instead the red "A" & "B" posts are common.

When dealing with the CW-80, "common" sense goes out the window.  Sorry for the pun.

Rob 

[chuck]

TMCC completely seperates POWER from CONTROL.  Any source of AC power with enough current (4 amps or greater) and an output  voltage range of 8-18 volts can be used (8 volts won't get you very far).  You need 60 cycle hz also, but that shouln't be a problem in North America.

[ADCX Rob]

Laz, I do a TR then 1 and then hit BOOST on my layout to start everything.  I do not have power to the track unless I do this. 

There should be no reason for this step if there is no TPC or PM-1, & you are using only a CW-80 for power.  Nothing controlling track power with a CW-80 has any RF circuitry to respond to a CAB-1.

Start over in conventional with the Command Base unplugged entirely to verify track power, then follow my instructions above.

Rob 

I could be COMPLETELY wrong here, but I was under the impression that a CW-80 could NOT be used as a TMCC powersource.

Yup, completely wrong.

TMCC does not care what brand, color, race, creed, or otherwise the 18 VAC is that it gets.  Just use full power on the CW-80(the easiest way to do this is to program the accessory output to full and use that tap for TMCC power).  In this fashion, the CW will function as a 5 amp "brick", or PowerHouse, complete with circuit protection.

Rob 

[Buckeye Riveter]

Laz, I do a TR then 1 and then hit BOOST on my layout to start everything.  I do not have power to the track unless I do this. 

There should be no reason for this step if there is no TPC or PM-1, & you are using only a CW-80 for power.  Nothing controlling track power with a CW-80 has any RF circuitry to respond to a CAB-1.

Start over in conventional with the Command Base unplugged entirely to verify track power, then follow my instructions above.

Rob 

I could be COMPLETELY wrong here, but I was under the impression that a CW-80 could NOT be used as a TMCC powersource.

Brent, Lionel sells TMCC sets with the CW-80.  

James and Rob, I'm sorry for the confusion, I was just responding to Laz's method of bring up power by turning the red knob.

If the caboose doesn't light, then this is not a TMCC problem, but a power problem and with all of the past history of the CW-80 it would not be unthinkable.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Chuck and Rob!

My next thought had to do with the differences between old and new CW releases (that the variable output posts are switched with the common output posts).

I would recommend changing the posts that the terminal track wires are connected to.

If that doesn't work... try the CW-80 connected directly to the terminal track...

If that doesn't work, check the connections under the terminal track... I've had them come off the connection posts... that is always fun to track down!

[Anonymous]

Laz, I do a TR then 1 and then hit BOOST on my layout to start everything.  I do not have power to the track unless I do this. 

There should be no reason for this step if there is no TPC or PM-1, & you are using only a CW-80 for power.  Nothing controlling track power with a CW-80 has any RF circuitry to respond to a CAB-1.

Start over in conventional with the Command Base unplugged entirely to verify track power, then follow my instructions above.

Rob 

I could be COMPLETELY wrong here, but I was under the impression that a CW-80 could NOT be used as a TMCC powersource.

Brent, Lionel sells TMCC sets with the CW-80.  

James and Rob, I'm sorry for the confusion, I was just responding to Laz's method of bring up power by turning the red knob.

If the caboose doesn't light, then this is not a TMCC problem, but a power problem and with all of the past history of the CW-80 it would not be unthinkable.

Buckeye, I know that... I received on for X-Mas last year (with a newer version CW-80).  I already had the Modern ZW, so I never had a need to power track from the CW-80.

Thanks for keeping me straight... ol' timer!

[SchemerBob]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm sure I'll get something working now. I'll keep everyone posted as it progresses.

[bfskinner]

Folks,

If I have posted this once I have posted it a dozen times: in order to talk about a CW80 one absolutely MUST specify whether he has an old one or a new (REVISED) one. Revised CW80's have been on the market for well over a year now, but just because you obtained yours recently doesn't necessarily mean that you have a revised one. Old ones are still popping up on eBay and in sets, among other places.

When having trouble with TMCC or any other new-fangled electronic whiz-bang device, first find out and let the forum know what it will do, not simply what it won't. With CW80's in particular:

0. Make certain that your house current operates at 60 cycles-per-second, aka 60 Hertz. This is pretty much standard in the U.S., but many overseas homes are wired for 50 Hz. As stated clearly by Lionel, the CW80 of any vintage is not designed to run on other than 60 Hz current.

1. Leave your voltmeter in it's case;* but do use your ohmmeter to determine positively whether you have a revised CW80 or an old one.

2. When the CW80 is plugged into the wall with nothing attached to the outputs, does the green light come on and continue glowing steadily? Does the internal fan ramp up to speed? You may have to listen carefully with your ear close to the transformer.

3. If so, unnplug the CW80 from the wall, connect the output terminals to the track and plug it back in.

4. Does the above continue when the CW80 is connected to the track (with no other load) or does the green light begin blinking and/or the internal fuse blow  -- Heaven forbid?

5. Unplug the CW80 again, set the throttle handle to zero, put your loco on the track, and plug the transformer back into the house power once again.

6. Using the throttle handle only, will the locomotive, or the loco-and-tender if a "tethered unit" run?

4. Do the buttons for direction, bell and whistle/horn do exactly as expected? If the direction button doesn't function properly, make sure that the "reverse off" switch (if your loco is so equipped) is in the "on" position. Add a "resistive load" (lamp, illuminated caboose or passenger car, etc.) to the circuit and try again.

If everything is OK, begin adding a cars, one at a time, testing as you go, to ensure that everything remains OK.

5. If everything is copacetic, then (and only then) begin incorporating the fancy stuff, such as TMCC, etc.

6. If something has gone awry in the steps above, read your Owner's Manual. If you haven't got one, you can read any of dozens of them online at the Lionel web site, and even print them out if you'd like. (This should have been the first instruction on the list, but almost nobody seems to "buy it" until something goes wrong -- and many not even then. Besides, while most are pretty good in most respects, some of the Lionel manuals contain glaring errors, omissions, and inconsistencies.)

* Direct readings of the output voltages on the CW80 with no load on the device are meaningless -- you will likely see either zero or 19 volts. Even if read with a load on the device, such as between the center and outer rails and an illuminated train on the tracks, the readings will be significantly erroneous (although they will appear relatively sensible) unless corrected per a chart posted some time ago by "lionelsoni" (Bob Nelson) of this forum.

As far as TMCC and the fancy systems are concerned, the most consistently reliable info on this forum seems to come from "chuck" of Plymouth, MI, and punster "ADCX Rob" of no fixed address.

[csxt30]

Folks,

If I have posted this once I have posted it a dozen times: in order to talk about a CW80 one absolutely MUST specify whether he has an old one or a new (REVISED) one. Revised CW80's have been on the market for well over a year now, but just because you obtained yours recently doesn't necessarily mean that you have a revised one. Old ones are still popping up on eBay and in sets, among other places.

When having trouble with TMCC or any other new-fangled electronic whiz-bang device, first find out and let the forum know what it will do, not simply what it won't. With CW80's in particular:

0. Make certain that your house current operates at 60 cycles-per-second, aka 60 Hertz. This is pretty much standard in the U.S., but many overseas homes are wired for 50 Hz. As stated clearly by Lionel, the CW80 of any vintage is not designed to run on other than 60 Hz current.

1. Leave your voltmeter in it's case;* but do use your ohmmeter to determine positively whether you have a revised CW80 or an old one.

2. When the CW80 is plugged into the wall with nothing attached to the outputs, does the green light come on and continue glowing steadily? Does the internal fan ramp up to speed? You may have to listen carefully with your ear close to the transformer.

3. If so, unnplug the CW80 from the wall, connect the output terminals to the track and plug it back in.

4. Does the above continue when the CW80 is connected to the track (with no other load) or does the green light begin blinking and/or the internal fuse blow  -- Heaven forbid?

5. Unplug the CW80 again, set the throttle handle to zero, put your loco on the track, and plug the transformer back into the house power once again.

6. Using the throttle handle only, will the locomotive, or the loco-and-tender if a "tethered unit" run?

4. Do the buttons for direction, bell and whistle/horn do exactly as expected? If the direction button doesn't function properly, make sure that the "reverse off" switch (if your loco is so equipped) is in the "on" position. Add a "resistive load" (lamp, illuminated caboose or passenger car, etc.) to the circuit and try again.

If everything is OK, begin adding a cars, one at a time, testing as you go, to ensure that everything remains OK.

5. If everything is copacetic, then (and only then) begin incorporating the fancy stuff, such as TMCC, etc.

6. If something has gone awry in the steps above, read your Owner's Manual. If you haven't got one, you can read any of dozens of them online at the Lionel web site, and even print them out if you'd like. (This should have been the first instruction on the list, but almost nobody seems to "buy it" until something goes wrong -- and many not even then. Besides, while most are pretty good in most respects, some of the Lionel manuals contain glaring errors, omissions, and inconsistencies.)

* Direct readings of the output voltages on the CW80 with no load on the device are meaningless -- you will likely see either zero or 19 volts. Even if read with a load on the device, such as between the center and outer rails and an illuminated train on the tracks, the readings will be significantly erroneous (although they will appear relatively sensible) unless corrected per a chart posted some time ago by "lionelsoni" (Bob Nelson) of this forum.

As far as TMCC and the fancy systems are concerned, the most consistently reliable info on this forum seems to come from "chuck" of Plymouth, MI, and punster "ADCX Rob" of no fixed address.

Well BF . That was just about the most arrogant self centered reply I ever read here. Yes, Chuck & the others you mentioned are real experts but there are a lot of us little guys that know something too. Beleive me , I hit the abuse button for your posts.

[ADCX Rob]

6. If something has gone awry in the steps above, read your Owner's Manual. If you haven't got one, you can read any of dozens of them online at the Lionel web site, and even print them out if you'd like. (This should have been the first instruction on the list, but almost nobody seems to "buy it" until something goes wrong -- and many not even then. Besides, while most are pretty good in most respects, some of the Lionel manuals contain glaring errors, omissions, and inconsistencies.)

But the one thing you forget to mention is that every available CW-80 manual so far has the worst errors.  Pictograms don't match the text and at least one feature is misdescribed.

For anyone checking this post for problems with a CW-80 transformer application, please post the date code, 4 or 5 characters stamped in white ink on the bottom of the base plate, with your query.

Rob 

[bfskinner]

csxt30,

Thank you for your support.

There are folks with all levels of experience on this forum, and their contributions are all valuable. Frequently the questions contribute more to the total knowledge base than some of the answers,* but I see everyone's post as useful and often entertaining.

On several occasions I have admitted that I know nothing about TMCC nor most of the rest of the current alphabet-soup acronyms; so I'm merely trying to help in any way I can. Can you say the same?

 

*It might be called "heuristic" value. Short of a lucky guess or an extremely well-educated  response, I think it unwise to tackle problems with a CW80-based system until it is clear what version of the CW80 one is referencing, and that it is working properly. Long experience on this and other forums has led me to this conclusion. Your experience may vary. I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt. It was not intentional.

[bfskinner]

ADCX Rob,

You are correct, except that I didn't forget it, I just didn't write it again. My posts tend to be quite long as it is, and I have discussed it repeatedly.

Specifically, on pp.5-6 pp. 4-5 of the CW80 manual(s), the text and diagram contradict each other. Also the section on programming the voltage to the accessory posts (B and U) fails to mention that you really need to have the accessory connected so that you can observe it while doing the voltage adjustment. I have posted these observations many times in the past. There are others of which I am aware. What they seem to have in common is the well-known (but not necessarily understood) "common ground" issue.

Late last week I got a Hogwarts set for my granddaughter, and while checking it out noticed that its manual seems to have corrected the second of the two problems. However, the last time I looked up the actual CW80 Owner's Manual(s)* online, they were still not corrected, despite the fact that I actually wrote Jerry Calabrese about it several months ago. You'd think that with all the influence I have on this forum he would sit up straight and pay attention, wouldn't you?

*Why are there still two for the old version, and none for the revised one?

Edited 11/06/07 to correct reference to page numbers in second paragraph.

[SchemerBob]

My CW-80 came in the Norfolk Southern Black Diamond Freight set of 2005. I believe that was before the new CW-80's came out (?) although I did notice that this one's fan is much quieter than my other CW-80 which came in my Polar Express set. I don't expect the transformer to be the problem because it seems to run conventional trains okay.

[laz 57]

BOB,

  I have the same set and had NO problems with my CW.  I'm stumped on your situation.  Did you try new batteries?  Just a thought? 

laz57