"OUR" PLACE - SEE NEW THREAD!

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom and all

A pint of Bathams please especially as it is on Dicks expense account [tup].

[wow]The bar has been really busy since I left for Stockton M.O. on Friday lunch (I didnt see a single walnut but a great parade with many Marching Bands the musical talent especially of the youngsters is trully remarkable.) It has taken me nearly 2 hours to catch up they REALLY are great posts and photos. They are fantastic. Thanks all.

I have managed to get in touch with my pal in England and I have more info on the locos on the MALLIAG runs this year. For most of the season it was worked by ex L.N.E.R. locos 2-6-0 K1 class #62005 and 4-6-0 B1class #6i264. In September he went on a tripwith LMS Black 5 # 45407 from Glasgow to Fort William where it was exchanged with 61240 which is doing a 3 days steam tours in its native East Anglia.

I believe the class 5 #44767 as in the photo has had a season on the Malliag runs . The Valve gear you asked about NICK is STEPHENSON' S on this loco. There were no LMS class 5's saved with CAPROTTI valve gear althogh a B.R. Standard 5 with Caprotti gear has been restored this year and is running at the Midland Railway Centre AT Butterley Derbyshire.

As to THE GREAT MARQUESS I have been told it is a 3-Cylinder K4 2-6-0 a small class of loco built special for working the West Highland line. It was owned by LORD GARNOCH. (not too sure about the spelling). Some time ago the elderly Lord became ill and the engine was made up to main line standard. It left its home on the Severn Valley Railway working a railtour part of the way to get the loco up to Fort William. As his Lordship had always wanted to see the engine working in the Highlands, I believe the loco only stayed at Fort William only a few weeks. I was fortunate enough to travel behind the loco as it made its way home. We traveled over the Settle-Carlisle where a stop was made at Garside where minute of silence was held signaled by the loco whistle for his Lordship who had passed away shortly after the engine arrived in the Highlands. His wish had been granted.

Thanks Russ for the great picture of the 261 in KC. My wife's friend who keeps our dog when we are away says she saw it in KC but her travel partner from work said it was a diesel because of the oil tank behind it. [%-)]

Tom, tickets have arrived. [tup]

Thanks all for the congratulations on the honor of my own stool! It is great to be in such fine company.

[Trainnut484]

Good evening Tom and everyone. I'll have a Miller Lite, and put it on ***'s account please. I heard that Bwooonnnnng Gwonnnnnng somewhere. I thought Boris had a bad cold or something [alien] Tom, I'm glad you got that corrected. Will there be a "Our Ladies of Perpetual Motion" room? I'm sure Cindy will put that room to good use [}:)]

Dan, sorry to hear you were under the weather. I was there a few weeks ago, and I can tell ya, it's not fun [:(].

Dave, you said it. "Our" Place is where friends meet [^][tup]

Had a great time this past weekend. Visited Chanute, KS, which was a division point on the Santa Fe years ago. The town had their annual art festival that included rides on South Kansas and Oklahoma's passenger train. SKO operates on the former Santa Fe line (southern half of Eastern Division) from Chanute, through Cherryvale, to Coffeyville. The original Santa Fe line branched off from the transcon line in Ottawa, KS and ran down to Tulsa, OK, but the track from Ottawa to Chanute was taken up. The old right of way can still be seen from highway 59 which runs south from Ottawa, parallels the right of way from south of Garnett to Coffeyville, then into Oklahoma.

Ok now you all have some bearings on what I'm talking about, The SKO has three ex Boston & Maine Budd RDC cars that were restored by an individual and renamed them after his grandaughters; "Kaleigh Ann" (RDC 9210), "Afton Leigh" (RDC 9202), and "Fallyne Marie" (RDC 9203). The RDC cars are non-powered, but look in tip top shape inside and out. I did take pix, but don't want to take away the fun for Sunday Photo Day [;)]. UNLESS I get overwhelming requests for them [:D].

In case anyone is interested, there is a old wigwag signal STILL in service just north of Cherryvale. I first saw it back about 1995 or '96 and wondered if it was still around. Sure enough it was and looks like it's been well maintained (got great pix of it too).

Another Miller Lite please, thanks.

Russell

[West Coast S]

Afternoon (again) Tom.. Replied to your message, fellow graduate of Glynco.

Pwolf, glad you survived the walnut experience, and welcome aboard as a fellow comrade in the Order Of The Permanate Stool. You have walnuts, we have Westeria Vines, big event here in So. Cal. once a year to go look at some overgrown shrub. The wife and I attended one year and the crowds were enormous, can't figure out what all the fuss was about, if I fired the gardner we would be able to hold our own eventzzz][zzz]

I'm not familar enough with foreign rails to qualify a intelligent response, but Caprotti does ring a bell, ( Stop Boris, you mis-undrestood. Bong..Bong..Bong, great, what have I started?) The UP equipped Pacific 7006 with Caprotti valve gear and light weight rods in 1927 to acertain any advantages over the then favored Walsatch valvegear. The light weight rods were subject to constant failure due to the forces applied to them, but UP was generally satisfied with the valve gear, who's only point of contention was a tendency for the valves to drift open, thus causing reduced efficency and steam loss.

UP's Mechanical Department thoeorized that if the Caprotti was designed to higher tolerances it would be a contended for application to additional power. Based on the initial UP sucess SP equipped a 2-8-2 with Caprotti and Santa Fe got aboard, retrofitting a Hudson. In the long run, Caprotti refused to offer a design suitible for the rigors of American railroads and the gear was promptly removed from all examples and the experiment terminated.

Tom.. Due to my exaulted status[bow] and resposibilities thereof, I suggest that we start a donation fund for the purchase of Boris's tuba this Christmas[;)]

Dave [(-D]

[siberianmo]

Evenin' Guys!

Looks like I've got a crowd in here and a need to respond to the Posts ..... but first, remember all drinks are on *** 'til closing time! Ring the bell Boris and let's run up that tab! [yeah][wow]

Gunns Kevin Look Mate, it goes like this - steel wheels on steel tracks. Baloons just don't get it! [swg] Have fun and of course, stay safe .....

Octoberfest 'round these parts begins on this coming Saturday. Watch for the "promotion" at "Our" Place! Until then, the food around here is the standard stuff we always have ....... sorry! [:D]

West Coast S Dave Your 2nd Email has been received ..... thanx! I'm a "grad" from the predecessor of Glynco ..... the "academy" at 14th & K!

That "black box" I was referring to does exist. Just haven't taken the time to research it out .... put 35mm slide in and convert it to digital for transfer to a disc. If it's affordable - I'm buying one. Wold love to make a disc for each of my kids of when they were kids. (Mine are all in their 40's ........) The pictures from my sailor days would also be nice for a disc or two. Pehaps the grandkids might get a kick out of 'em some day. If they remain as 35mm slides - no one will see 'em, even though the Kodak Carousel projector works just fine (have an extra bulb too!).

pwolfe Pete Great news - we'll meet up aboard Amtrak on Wednesday morning in JCity! [swg]

Glad you enjoyed the pix and Posts .... we're on a roll and hopefully our "nucleus" of guys will maintain the momentum, although from time to time, we have our absences. That's where it's nice for some unanticipated help to arrive ..... for example, ***'s trip reports on Sunday. [tup]

Always appreciate the insights from British Rail ... we kinda get in a rut over here and sometimes think we have the only Classics, which of course isn't the case. Just check out Nick's Pix on the photo album.

Trainnut484 Russell I believe I'm the RDC "nut" 'round here and I request that you hold off 'til Sunday for the picture posting. Really want to make that a "thing" for the bar 'n grill, otherwise we become "just another" picture posting site - don't want that. Thanx! [tup]

That's an interesting thought, a ladies "Our Ladies of Perpetual Motion Room." I think we'd need a license for something like that - given the strict codes of our village elders. Might be interpreted as something "untoward," as they used to say. Wouldn't want that now, would we [?] I like the idea and will think about it - if for no other reason that to offer it to Cindy and her group for their "meetings." Of course, Inspector Clueless of the Local Constabulary and his earstwhile partner, Mr. Doyle, Private Investigator will have to conduct the background investigations. [}:)][:-,]

Dave A Christmas tuba fund for Boris [?] - Good Grief man, what ARE you thinking [?] Your responsibility is to find a home, and hopefully some remuneration, for that gold plated clapper that caused our bell to sound like Notre Dame gone wild! [swg]

Catch y'all later and Cindy has departed the premises! [sigh]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

Okay guys, time for me to call it a nite! Leon the Night Man has the bar!

Remember, drinks on ***'s expense account 'til midnight! [swg]

Thanx to all who made this an active Monday! [tup][tup][tup]

Only downers for me are the continuing puzzlements regarding a few of our regulars Posting elsewhere, but not here .... I just don't get it. [sigh] What more must we do [?][%-)][%-)] Also, not one word about today's Fallen Flag - Rock Island Lilne [:(]

Well, tomorrow is a NEW day!

Nite .... [zzz]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[trolleyboy]

Good evening Leon looks as though I just missed Tom so I'll help myself to a nice frosty carlesburgh seeing as how oktober fest is upon us. The best one here in Ontario in Kitchener - waterloo starts on the 10th and runs for ten days.[tup][:p][;)] Tom Liked the latest incarnation of the fallenflags [tup] keep em comming. If you get a chance to look for Gregg Macdonnels "Heartland" good pictures of the midwest us [tup][^] That via car is an ex NYC smoothside Dorcas Bay we use it as are crew sleeper for those staying up over a weekend. Saves on hotel bills. The CP Van behind it is also set up for the crew to sleep in. One of my best friends at the musuem has taken speacial intrest in the Van. Insatlled a window AC unit the whole nine yards. His final "pice de resistance" was a blue neon sign for thee window that says " Bar " he claims it;s his night light. Dave The orange county museum is on my long term have to see. If we make it down I'll deffinatly take you up on the offer. My aforementioned freind Ian and another museum member are heading down to LA and san Fran next year on a trolley riding train watching museum spectacular.I have a sugestio for you. A Tuba is maybe not a good musical choice. We all know how confused Boris got when he first saw a flu***oilet[:0][:(!] We wouldn't want him thinking it was a gold plated bede. Ted I was pullin Toms lower extremity I know he's a deep down closet trolley fan[;)] Your wish may soon come true alot of cities US and Canada are seriously looking at trolley's and light rail as the wave of the future.[:(!]Go figure leave it to the political hacks to think of the old as the new thing some of these guys are likley the ones that voted for roads and busses to start with. sorry [#offtopic] my bad [soapbox] Boris ring the ding I'm buying for being political again.[V][:I] Nick Glad you liked RT7 and Geroge he doesn't eat or drink much and not to worried about being paid. Our kind of operator[tup][:D]. Loved the ONR shots BTW. I have to get you to North Bay sometime you'll be a kid in the candy store. [tup][swg]Well folks I'm off happy rails fer now. Rob

[siberianmo]

TUESDAY’s NEWS & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

Morning Gang! Time for some hot coffee – fresh pastry from The Mentor Village Bakery and a light breakfast to get the day started!

News of the Day:

HELP WANTED! I’ll be riding Amtrak on Wednesday, so we’ll need a few guys to help out ‘round here. Cindy will take care of the bar …. But you’lll need to help with the conversation! [swg] Thanx in advance! [tup]

INDEX

Index pages for Fallen Flags , Heralds of the Fallen Flags and Passenger Train Nostalgia

Generic URL: Just insert the index page in place of “106,” copy ‘n paste ‘n “go,”

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=106&TOPIC_ID=35270

-or- insert the index page in the address portion of this page (at the top).

106 – SP
106 – MoPac
108 – WP
109 – Frisco
112 - CNR
112 – CNR Super Continental Time Table
112 – Heralds of the Fallen Flags
113 - Passenger Train Nostalgia #1 “Start ups” in the 1800’s and early 1900’s
114 – ACL
115 – SCL
116 - D&RGW
117 – Passenger Train Nostalgia #2 California Zephyr’s Budd Co. Vista-Dome sleeper observation-lounge
118 – RI

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 00:38:10 (118) Monday’s News & Summary

(2) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 07:10:0 (118)

(3) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 07:28:51 (118) Fallen Flag – RI

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 07:44:28 (118) reply to Theodorebear –and- bell restoration

(5) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 08:00:18 (118)

(6) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 08:20:23 (119)

(7) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 08:38:02 (119) reply to nickinwestwales

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 08:58:08 (119) reply to coalminer3

(9) West Coast S Dave Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 12:46:39 (119)

(10) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 13:59:22 (119) reply to West Coast S

(11) West Coast S Dave Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 14:29:44 (119)

(12) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 15:30:45 (119) reply to West Coast S

(13) Gunns Kevin Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 15:31:36 (119)

(14) West Coast S Dave Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 15:58:45 (119)

(15) pwolfe Pete Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 17:57:20 (119)

(16) Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 18:29:08 (119)

(17) West Coast S Dave Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 18:34:49 (119)

(18) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 19:20:22 (119) reply to Gunns – West Coast S – pwolfe

(19) siberianmo Tom Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 21:52:13 (119)

(20) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 26 Sep 2005, 23:50:29 (119)

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[siberianmo]

Here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:

Delaware & Hudson

Headquarters: Albany, NY

Route mileage in 1950: 765 – 2000: 1,381

Locomotives in 1963: Diesels – 153

Rolling stock in 1963: Freight cars – 9,394 Passenger cars – 55

Principal lines in 1950:

Albany-Troy-Mechanicville, NY – Montreal, QC (Napierville Junction Railway trackage Rouses Point, NY-Montreal)
Binghamton-Oswego, NY (Erie trackage)
Nineveh, NY-Wilkes Barre, PA
Hudson-Buttonwood Yard, PA
Delanson-Mechanicville, NY
Schenectady-Balston Spa, NY
Saratoga Springs-Tahawus, NY (U.S. Government trackage North Creek-Tahawus)
Troy-Castleton, VT (B&M trackage Troy-Eagle Bridge, NY)
Whitehall, NY-Rutland, VT
Plattsburg-Lyon Mountain, NY
Plattsburg-Ausable Forks, NY
Fort Ticonderoga-Ticonderoga, NY
Oneonta-Cooperstown, NY
Cobleskill-Cherry Valley, NY

Using CONRAIL trackage in 1976:

Oswego-Buffalo & Niagara Falls, NY
Wilkes Barre-Harrisburg,PA-Washington, DC
Scranton-Allentown, PA-Newark, NJ
Allentown-Philadelphia

Passenger trains of note:

Laurentian (New York-Albany-Montreal)
Montreal Limited (New York-Albany-Montreal)

Of note:
All cars south of Albany handled by NYC.

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[Anonymous]

I must admit that today's Post comes prematurely as I won't have time to read all the replies since my last one.PHEW. Please Tom, a strong Sanka w/non dairy creamer and 3 packettes of Sweet & Low.[xx(] Just kidding![(-D] No, make it a Balderdash, shaken not strirred, please. The reason for the helter skelter dash (non-diesel) is a family in a "out of pocket" situation needs a little boost. I can help a bit by providing employment in the form of house cleaning. As this task is my least favorite, why not?[tup] They will be here very soon and I must "sort of" clear a path so they can find the floor.[:O]

CM3 and Nick, thouroughly enjoyed your "takes" on Olde and New England memorabilia.[^] I can't get enough of that sort of nostalgia. Tom, you're right! There isn't anything much "purtier" than seeing a wild Elk admiring a string of Budd cars gliding down the ROW into the sunset.[tup] When things get back to normal hysteria, I will "give it another go." Right Boris, I believe ***'s account is taxed to the limit, so this one is one me.[:D] CLANG, ahhh, music to me ears! Hey, what fell out of the bell? GADFREY DANIEL! The label reads The Bell and Borscht Shop, but its ladies foundation gaments.[:O] Nick....can we talk? Happy rails all.

[siberianmo]

OKTOBERFEST at ”Our” Place begins this Saturday, October 1st at Noon!

We will feature GERMAN brew all month!

GERMAN sausages will be added to the menu for the month, with all the trimmings!

On Saturday’s in October The Mentor Village Tutonic Society will sponsor Oompah Music live at the “Our” Place picnic grounds Pavillion and Dance Emporium! Performers include the Sauerkraut Band, Electric Lederhosen and Burst the Wurst Trio

Lederhosen and Alpine hats will be worn by "Our Place"! staff throughout the month!

Full scale LGB trains will be running on the main lines for free round trips to Can-Am Gorge on weekends – 10 AM to 4 PM. First northbound departs the ”Our” Place platform at 10 AM sharp, undt ve mean, sharp![swg]

PLAN TO SHARE THIS FALL CELEBRATION WITH US!

Tom, Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[BudKarr]

Reports of my demise were greatly exaggerated - I'm still here. How about a large sarnie with a sample of all your lunchmeats - lettuce and mayo should be fine. A pitcher of Olympia will do. Thank you - and hello barkeep.

Been browsing the net of real trains and came across a few things that perhaps will fit in with the theme of this place - classic trains. I have traveled on these trains. Wish I had some pictures - but that's just not possible in my situation. No doubt this stuff came from a printed source - but I haven't the foggiest who or where, otherwise I'd give credit. For the technically minded then, I give you:

From France: The TGV 10-car trainset of the French National Railways (SNCF) back in 1981.

Type: High-speed articulated multiple unit electric train.
Gauge: 4ft 8.5in. (1.435mm).
Propulsion: In each of two motor coaches, current taken from overhead wires at either 1,500V DC or 25,000V 50 Hz (or, ain a few cases 15,000V 16.66 Hz) supplied through rectifiers and-or chopper control to six 704hp (525kW) traction motors mounted on the coach body and geared to the axels through spring drive; two motors on each bogie of the power car and two on the adjoining end bogie of the articulated set.
Weight: 427,575lb (194t) adhesive, 941,465lb (381.8t) total.
Max. Axle load: 35,480lb (16.lt).
Overall length: 656ft 9.5in (200,190mm).
Max. Speed: 162mph (260km/h) initially, 186mph (300km/h) ultimately.

The French National Railways' (TGV) holds (or held) the world speed record of 236mph (380km/h) for a conventional train.
-----------------------------------------------------------

From Italy: The Fiat Ferroviaria Savigliano SpA (Fiat), 1976.
ET 401 Pendolino Four car train

Type: High speed electric train with body-tilting mechanisms.
Gauge: 4ft 8.5in (1.435mm).
Propulsion: Direct current at 3,000V fed via overhead catenary to eight 335hp (250kW) motors, two on each car, each driving one axle with longitudinal cardan shafts and gearing.
Weight: 177,422lb (80.5ft) adhesive, 354,845lb (161t) total.
Max. axle load: 23,145lb (10.5ft).
Overall length: 340ft 2.5in (103,700mm).
max. speed: 156mph (250km/h).

Italy was the 2nd country to put tilting trains into service, Japan being the first with the Class "381" trains.

From Great Britain: British Railways (BR) Class 370 "APT-P" Train, 1979.

Type: High speed electric passenger train.
Gauge: 4ft 8.5in. (1,435mm).
Propulsion: AC at 25,000V 50Hz fed via overhead catenary, step down transformer and thyristor-based control system to four body mounted 1,000hp motors in two power cars, driving the wheels through longitudinal shafts and gearing.
Weight: 297,540lb (135t) adhesive, 1,014,942lb (460.6t) total.
Max. Axle load: 37.248lb (16.9t).
Overall length: 963ft 6in. (293,675mm).
Max. speed: 150mph (240km/h).

The driving end of British Railways' Advanced Passenger Train, production-prototype version, "APT-P" had the power cars situated in mid-train and also had tilting capability.

BK

[siberianmo]

G'day Boyz!

Well it's noon here in mid-continent USA and I see that we've had only a few customers drop in - Rob just before mid-night; Ted early this AM and BK 'bout an hour ago. Whazzup with that [?] Feast or famine strikes again! [swg]

Rob Now that's a wise use of equipment for your guys to use 'em as sleepers ... makes sense. Perhaps we should do that for our Rendezvous in May. [swg] Nah, methinks a hotel room would be the better choice. Now if the sleeper were rolling along as part of a long distance consist - well, that's 'nother matter! [tup]

All kinds of talk going on here in the St. Louis area about restoring a trolley line or two. While I have no problem with it, the idea is really more for tourism and the associated business interests than tranist. That's all well 'n good - but I don't want my tax dollars supporting this, especially since our light-rail MetroLink doesn't link the Metro! Don't get me started ....... arggggggggh. I can see restoration of streetcars only if they truly provide an alternative means of transportation to the automobile. That I can support.

Looks like we're going to be without coalminer3 CM3 for awhile and who knows what the deal is with passengerfan Al. Our friend earlydiesels Dan is under the weather and Sir *** is globe trotting. We've been advised that our night owl Gunns Kevin will be spending time aloft ... so that really cuts us down to a precious few, eh [?] All the more reason to try and get our Posts spread out over those "windows" I mentioned: 6 AM to Noon- Noon to 6 PM and 6 PM to Midnight.

I'll keep at the Fallen Flags for a bit longer - however, they may be starting to wear thin ....... [?]

And I concur with your thinking about a tuba for Boris - that ain't gonna happen! [swg]

Ted What's the rush [?] You're at the stage of life where things just should be falling into whatever place they belong. Rush [?] Geesh! What's more important than spending hours on end at the screen and keyboard [?] [swg] Remember, a Post in haste, is a Post made waste! [wow] [tup] for the Proprietor!

BudKarr BK Was wonderin' if we'd hear from you again! Appreciate the info - rather technical, but undoubtedly of interest to us here at the bar 'n grill for Classic Trains!. Don't be a stranger ....... [tup]

Okay, boyz - I've done my part - Posted a Summary, a Fallen Flag and an Oktoberfest announcement. That's it 'til I see some responses.

Cindy has the bar! [yeah]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom and all

As it is after noon i'll have a Bathams and a ham sandwich please .

I meant to mention the piece on the Rock Island line, thanks for the Fallen flag. If you travell south of Jeff City on Highway 54 just north of ELDON M.O.there is an disused railroad which I have found out is part of the Rock Island line from Kansas City to St Louis. The rails look to be still in place although the track bed is returning to nature. Does anyone know when it closed and why the rails were left in place [?]
The lyrics to Lonnie Donnigans Rock Island line brought back memories as it was very popular in England at the time. In fact the first record I ever bought was his Battle Of New Orleans.That ages me a bit
[sigh].

WESTCOASTDAVE It was interresting that the U.P. tried Caprotti valve gear. In Britain I believe that the valves were held in place with steam with a guage in the cab to show the pressure. The last express steam loco built by British Railways in 1954 was a 4-6-2. 3-cylinder loco with Caprotti gear #71000 DUKE OF GLOUCESTER. It was an indifferent performer when new but was luckily saved and after a lot of hard work was put back into running order. they found that the ashpan had been made incorrectly restricting the flow of air to the fire. They have corrected this and added a improved stack arrangement and the loco is now a strong and a very capable performer.

NICK posted some photos of a TERRIER type locos. Another member of the class has been steamed.LONDON BRIGHTON & SOUTH COAST # 662 MARTELLO at Bressingham Steam Museum in Norfolk. Was there at town of Martello in your neck of the woods NICK[?].

Well I'll have one for the road and hope to call in later PETE.

[siberianmo]

G'day Pete

How fortuitous - I was on line trying to get some 'puter assistance from Dell (LOL) and while waiting, thought I'd open another window to check the bar 'n grill - there you were! [tup]

The old Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railroad (Rock Island Line) has quite a history in Missouri. Perhaps we'll talk about it on the train tomorrow ... anyway, here's some info you may find of interest from an Oct 8th, 1999 press release:

QUOTE: IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

OMAHA, October 7 -- Union Pacific Railroad announced today it has sold the central
portion of the former Rock Island Line across central-Missouri to the Missouri Central
Railroad.

Financial terms of the sale were not disclosed.

The portion of the line Union Pacific sold to Missouri Central is 244 miles between Vigus, which is west of St. Louis near Chesterfield, to Pleasant Hill. Union Pacific will retain the ownership of the line between Kansas City to Pleasant Hill and Vigus to St. Louis. Missouri Central will be able to operate over those portions of the line through a trackage rights agreement.

The Missouri Central will take over the line today.

The line, locally known as the "Rock Island line", was acquired by Union Pacific as the
result of the 1996 UP/Southern Pacific Railroad merger. Southern Pacific had purchased the line from the bankrupt Rock Island in the early 1980s to have a route between St. Louis and Kansas City. SP, however, obtained permission to operate over a parallel line owned by Union Pacific as a result of the merger between UP and Missouri Pacific Railroad in 1982. The line has not been used, except for about 80 miles between St. Louis and Owensville, since the early 1980s.

MoCentral has since gone by the wayside and the current owner is AMEREN Corp.; they lease out freight rights for "situational" service between St. Louis and Union, MO. As I've been told, some of the MoCentral partnership still has their hand in the operation, but under a different name and organization. Gets rather convoluted and moreso as time passes.

A group that I headed up was trying to use a portion of the right-of-way for commuter rail service from Chesterfield (where I live) eastward to the nearest light-rail station (MetroLink). Long, sad and frustrating story which ended in lots of effort with zero results.

I'll point out some of the right-of-way to you as we head west to Pleasant Hill. The Surface Transportation Board (STB) has the say with regard to whether rail right of way can be scrapped, left in place, etc. The decisions thus far have fallen in favor of leaving it "as is" in the belief that there's a rather nebulous legal responsibility to have the designed right of way remain should service someday be restored to the towns along the line. I know that sounds crazy - but true. There have been several efforts to have those "treed in" areas returned to the original landowners (or whoever today holds title). That too has been turned down. Hiking and biker trails people are eyeing the right of way as well ..... Okay 'nuf of that!

Glad someone 'round here liked that Rock Island Line song! Seems just like yesterday .... [swg]

See ya in the 'morrow!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[coalminer3]

Good Afternoon All:

I'm so not used to seeing the sun on the west side of the bldg. Round for all and coffee for me, please. Have just a short time to visit today.

Fallen Flag on the D&H was most welcome and it brought back memories of one of the more interesting incidents that happened to me at Saratoga. Back in the day, as most of you recall, the D&H's passenger trains were pulled by PAs. I used to make the trip form Boston to D&H country to get pictures of these beasties which were truly a breathtaking example of form following function.

Well, one fall afternoon I was at Saratoga geting ready to photograph the PAs with a backdrop of lovely fall colors. Just as they came into view here came a D&H freight pulled by three C-628s; normally a cause for happiness, but in this case one for frustration. Somewhere in my slides is a shot of the some of the cars on the freight train with lots of black smoke from behind them as the PAs pulled out of Saratoga, blocked from view by a bunch of boxcars. Oh well, sometimes you bite the bear and other times...I did get shots of the C628s so don't be too tough on me.

Have a good evening

work safe

[siberianmo]

Hey CM3

The view may be different, but it's the same old place ... thanx for the round! [tup]

Loved those PA's in the D&H livery - really striking color scheme.

Regarding those pix of yours - with today's technology, one only can guess what kinda "magic" can be done with the digital process in order to restore or enhance a picture. Of course you are talking obliteration here ... [swg] All's not lost though, as you indicated, you came out batting .500, which is never all that bad!

You'll have to make sure that you check out the staff during Oktoberfest, especiallly Boris in lederhosen! [:O]

Thanx for stopping by! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom and all.

A pint please and thanks for the info on the Rock Island Line in Missouri[tup][tup][tup]PETE

[West Coast S]

Afternoon Tom and the gang. Round of your best German brew.
Without further ado:

Ride the Rock Island its, a mighty fine line..

Once considered a merger partner with Southern Pacific, legal challenges by Union Pacific and Kansas City Southern opposing any such alliance delayed the process until the Rock Island was in such terminal condition the Southern Pacific abandoned the merger plans.

It would have been a perfect marriage, Southern Pacific & Rock island shared interchange yards, shared trackage rights and operated run through movements utlilizing each others equiptment, Rock Island E-8s were common in Los Angeles during the mid to late 60s, having run through on the GOLDEN STATE. As the Rock's fortunes faded in the 70s , run through power became rare, Southern Pacific placed restrictions on equiptment operating on the Rock, due to the poor infastructure, all the while the Rock continued to bleed red.

Poor Rock, left at the alter by the Southern pacific, which had foresaken them to deal with their own looming crisis, went begging to it's former arch rival, Union Pacific to underwrite the purchase of new equiptment and loans for badly need trackwork, they being unable to secure these loans without a well to do benafactor . With the resources of Uncle Pete, Rock Island was able to stave off the inevetible a few more years.



Have to admire the D&H, who else had 2-8-0s that could outperform challengers?

Without the D&H there would no surviving Alco PA's or Baldwin sharknoses and numerous generations of Alco Road Engines. They were not for Sunday Go only amusement, but contributed to the bottom line doing what they were designed to do long after others had banished them as obsolete.

Yesterday I releated the history of Caprotti valve gear on the UP, though you might appreciate some insight into 7006, the test engine itself. UP 7006 was a Mountain type, delivered by Baldwin in 1921. It was known throughout the system as the
"Widow Maker" due to having three crews killed at various times in various tragic, unexplainable wrecks.
Any legend of the engine being haunted were laid to rest upon her scrapping in 1953.

Tom/PWolf have a great journey, stay safe, lots of photos and notes please, we'll keep Boris confined or otherwise impared until your return.

Catch you on the upside

Dave [8D][8D]

[siberianmo]

G'day Dave

Appreciate the elaboration on the Rock Island Line and the Delaware & Hudson. I recall reading that the ROCK had been in bankruptcy twice before the final encouter. I didn't know the subtle nature of the SP - UP - et al in forumating the last chapter. Sad.

D&H was an Alco savior, of sorts and that livery was really great looking. Only caught a glimpse of one of those passenger trains in New York State - and what a beautfiul sight she was.

Appreciate you stopping by and thanx for the offer to look out after Boris - this may be a bit more than you bargained for! [:O]

See ya on Thursday - pix on Sunday!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone. Tom, I'm on medicine so alcohol's out but I'll take anything else cold and wet. I appreciated the fallen flag article on the CRIP. I have memories of this rr including the Eldon depot, new named GP38-2s, and running E8 652 at the Midland. Somewhere around here is Johnny Cash railroad songs with his version of the Rock Island Line.
Russ, those RDCs owned by Watco are used frequently on excursions and the on board staff is made up of volunteers from Heart of the Heartlands, based in Carona, Ks. They all have uniforms and the host rr furnishes power and a engineer for these runs. A pumpkin run is around Halloween.
Feeling a little better. Now the better half has it and she missed work today. Appreciate the get well wishes, guys. There has been some awful good posts recently and I feel priviliged to be part of this group.

[siberianmo]

Evenin' Dan

Glad to learn that you're feeling a bit better .... sorry that the other half is hurtin' ... no fun.

Hey! It's our privilege to have you as part of our group! You've been a valued "customer" from early on and we always appreciate your input. [yeah]

I agree with you about the Posts we've had lately - many thanx to to guys like coalminer3 CM3 - and - West Coast S Dave - and - passengerfan Al - and trolleyboy Rob - and nickinwestwales Nick - and pwolfe Pete - and Trainnut484 Russell - and Theodorebear Ted - and wrwatkins *** - and Gunns Kevin - and ......... whoa! I've just about "run" the table! [swg]

Hope you're up and about real soon and don't forget to stop by and check us out this Saturday - Oktoberfest "Our" Place Style! [;)]

Best to "the wife!"

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[trolleyboy]

Evening folks. Tom a snitzle or two please and a ***er of your best pilsner on tap please.One question though, Boris in lederhousin[?][:0] you will be getting him shaved, waxed and sedated for the month I hope[:D][;)] Here's my [2c] on reactivating your trolley lines. Yes it will likley be down initially for tourists. But if they have them meet your regular light rail at stations and run a decent timetable it may accidentally become the transit of choice by default.We are proud of our little hotel on wheels at the museum. Luckily for us the car was never stripped so all the "pallets" are still in place and useable[tup] I must say that I never tired of seeing the blue and grey lightning stripe scheme on D&H alcos being the alcofile that I am[:p] BK I love the smell of ozone in the morning, Loved your post some really good info there. I've said it before. We in NA need to learn from the continent. A well run,maintained passenger network is a must going forward weather it's electric or diesel is really imaterial. We need to get the cars and busses off tthe highways and star subsidizing a real rail net work not just continue building roads and airports ad nausium. [oops][soapbox] Boris clang the bell I'm buying a round of saussage and pilsner for the house. West Coast and Tom nice recolections on the Rock as well guys. I seem to remember in all the restructuring and finacail woes of the 70's and 80's that most people ( at least in canada ) refered to their last Blue with the big "R" scheme, As the bankrupsie blue scheme.[8)] Well folks I'moff and a running see you all later. [tup][:)] Rob

[siberianmo]

Hey Rob - jumpin' the gun a bit, eh [?] No German chow until Saturday - that's the start of Oktoberfest 'round here. The brew we have! [tup]

Interesting how on point your comments are regarding the plans for the start-up of the tourist Trolley. Good logic and makes sense! [tup] However, the use of public funds for a private venture really bothers me - always has and always will.

I recall the Rock and Blue! [yeah] Hadn't made that connection in years .........

Boris waxed and shaved [?] Are you serious [?] He's going over to Miss Greta's Continental Tailor Shop and Chili Parlo(u)r for a Lederhosen fitting later this AM. He's all excited about the suspenders ......... Lord only knows what he'll do with those! The Alpine Hat is equally in peril .......

The thing about the Euro's and passenger rail is that a way of life has evolved from their use. A rather population intense environment with better rail rights of way than highways surely lends itself to its use. They did it right and are continuing to do so, not to mention that the price of fuel has been considerably higher for them than for us in NA. Nevertheless, we should learn from them - but won't. Just take a look at the Euro's preference for automobiles - much smaller and more efficient. Gasoline will have to get to the $5 per gallon mark in the U.S., methinks, before any significant alterations in preferences really occurs. That's the simple ever luvin' blue eyed truth of it all.....

Well, I gotta get the SUMMARY out and then a few hours sleep before train time!

Nite! [zzz]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

WEDNESDAY’s NEWS & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

G’day All! Grab a bite ‘n let’s get to it …. Gotta catch a train! [swg]

News of the Day:

(1) HELP WANTED! I’ll be riding Amtrak today, so we’ll need a few guys to help out ‘round here. Cindy will take care of the bar …. But you’lll need to help with the conversation! [swg] Thanx in advance! [tup]

(2) OKTOBERFEST at ”Our” Place begins this Saturday, October 1st at Noon!

We will feature GERMAN brew all month!

GERMAN sausages will be added to the menu for the month, with all the trimmings!

On Saturday’s in October The Mentor Village Tutonic Society will sponsor Oompah Music live at the “Our” Place picnic grounds Pavillion and Dance Emporium! Performers include the Sauerkraut Band, Electric Lederhosen and Burst the Wurst Trio

Lederhosen and Alpine hats will be worn by "Our Place"! staff throughout the month!

Full scale LGB trains will be running on the main lines for free round trips to Can-Am Gorge on weekends – 10 AM to 4 PM. First northbound departs the ”Our” Place platform at 10 AM sharp, undt ve mean, sharp![swg]

PLAN TO SHARE THIS FALL CELEBRATION WITH US!

INDEX

Index pages for Fallen Flags , Heralds of the Fallen Flags and Passenger Train Nostalgia

Generic URL: Just insert the index page in place of “106,” copy ‘n paste ‘n “go,”

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=106&TOPIC_ID=35270

-or- insert the index page in the address portion of this page (at the top).

106 – SP
106 – MoPac
108 – WP
109 – Frisco
112 - CNR
112 – CNR Super Continental Time Table
112 – Heralds of the Fallen Flags
113 - Passenger Train Nostalgia #1 “Start ups” in the 1800’s and early 1900’s
114 – ACL
115 – SCL
116 - D&RGW
117 – Passenger Train Nostalgia #2 California Zephyr’s Budd Co. Vista-Dome sleeper observation-lounge
118 – RI
119 – D&H

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 00:20:19 (119) Tuesday’s News & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 07:21:19 (119) Fallen Flag – D&H

(3) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 09:06:35 (119)

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 10:08:45 (119) Oktoberfest!

(5) BudKarr BK Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 11:18:20 (119) Euro trains

(6) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 12:31:21 (120) reply to trolleyboy – Theodorebear – BudKarr

(7) pwolfe Pete Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 14:33:35 (120)

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 14:56:31 (120) reply to pwolfe

(9) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 15:06:19 (120)

(10) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 15:14:43 (120) reply to coalminer3

(11) pwolfe Pete Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 16:38:37 (120)

(12) West Coast S Dave Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 18:50:31 (120)

(13) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 19:11:45 (120) reply to West Coast S

(14) earlydiesels Dan Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 19:43:03 (120)

(15) siberianmo Tom Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 20:42:14 (120) reply to earlydiesels

(16) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 27 Sep 2005, 22:53:53 (120)

(17) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Sep 2005, 00:43:01 (120) reply to trolleyboy

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[siberianmo]

Here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:

Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR)
Headquarters: Philadelphia, PA

Mileage:

1950: 10,000
1962: 9,756

Locomotives in 1963:

Diesel: 2,402
Electric: 254

Rolling stock in 1963:

Freight cars: 139,356 Passenger cars: 3,546

Principal routes in 1950:

Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh, PA
New York-Washington, DC
Pittsburgh-Fort Wayne, IN-Chicago, IL
Pittsburgh-Indianapolis,IN-St. Louis, MO
Pittsburgh-Cleveland, OH
Baltimore, MD-Buffalo, NY
Wilmington, DE-Norfolk, VA
Chicago-Columbus, OH
Logansport, IN-Louisville, KY
Logansport-Cincinnati
Fort Wayne, IN-Mackinaw City, MI
Columbus-Toledo, OH-Detroit, MI

Passenger trains of note:

Broadway Limited (New York-Chicago)
Clevelander (New York-Cleveland)
Cincinnati Limited (New York-Cincinnati)
Colonial (Boston-Washington, joint with New Haven)
Congressional (New York-Washington)
Duquesne (New York-Pittsburgh)
Edison (New York-Washington)
The General (New York-Chicago)
Golden Triangle (Chicago-Pittsburgh)
Jeffersonian (New York-St. Louis)
Kentuckian (Chicago-Louisville)
Liberty Limited (Washington-Chicago)
Manhattan Limited (New York & Washington-Chicago)
Pennsylvania Limited (New York & Washington-Chicago)
Penn Texas (New York-Washington-St. Louis)
Pittsburgher (New York-Pittsburgh)
Red Arrow (New York-Detroit)
St. Louis (New York-Washington-St. Louis)
Senator (Boston-Washington, joint with New Haven)
“Spirit of St. Louis” (New York-St. Louis)
South Wind (Chicago-Miami, joint with L&N, ACL and Florida East Coast)
Trail Blazer (New York-Chicago)
Union (Chicago-Columbus, OH)

Of note: In the New York-Florida market, the PRR was a forwarder for many connecting passenger trains from other roads.

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[Anonymous]

Tom, I'll just "...sit a spell..." and try to collect some worthy input from the wholesale voulme of the latest positings. While I let the Juan Valdez cool a tad and the Breakstone sweet butter settle into the "nooks and crannys" of the Thomas' Muffin, let me just say that using tax dollars for any enterprise in the amusement sector is (for me) a "no, no!" Public Parks and recreation is the only exception that comes to mind. My Community just built a replica of the St. Peterburg R.R. station for the Chamber of Commerce and my property taxes went through the roof.[xx(] Yes, some of this is due to the "real estate balloon" but still, this was an unecessary boondoggle project. I understand that Reno, NV is building a similar edifice with only one train @ day which may be discontinued at any time...ridiculous! If government goes into a project knowing it will be a useless "gee gah," it will ultimately fail any purpose for the public. I would like to think our tax dollars could be better spent on somthing more than a curio shop. Not to worry, its only my [2c]

The Rock Island Rocket from Minneapolis to Knasas City via Chicago was a superb steramliner. I saw some remnanats of that proud varnish lying in a forlorn state near that City's station around 1965. BTW, the "Rocket" was my first endeavor at HO model railroad building. The Stromberg Mfg. Co. company had a wooden and posterboard model available during W.W. II (no metal toys were available). It really wasn't too bad as the colors on the EMD T-1 (?) diesel were accurate and fluted, wooden sides detail were faithful to the protype. Right, it was a pu***oy, not motorized.

You are right Tom, the "rush" days should be over for me. However, some things just "die hard" after retirement.[:O] The "couch potato" thing just isn't appealing to moi. I may be enrolling in some VoTech courses soon at St. Pete Jr. College. Nothing too lofty, maybe just some basic classes in electronics which would be helpful in model R.R.ing. My Bachelors of Music Education degree didn't include many "real world" studies save monitoring young street urchins from murdering one another away from home.[V] "Let's don't go there!"

Now that Katrina and Rita's furry has lapsed into "pin the tail on the Donkey," maybe the plight of the survivors will be addressed in a sane and efficient manner. "Hope springs eternal." Just another example of bureacratic hysteria gone mad.[tdn] Thank God for the Coast Guard, Natn'l Guard, Airborne and Army Corps of Engineers! Left to their own devices, the local and state authorities in LA. would have floated into the Gulf by now. If you thought looting in N.O. was bad before, wait 'till we see what happens with FEMA monies.[:O] Okay Boris, you know what to do. DONKA DONKA DONKA What the Sam Hill is that cow bell doing hanging from your neck? Oh, Leon thought it would go well with the Lederhosen.[alien] So long for now. SLAM!

[West Coast S]

What the? Boris, Boris!... Why are you asleep atop the bar only atired in Lederhosen and Coffee Filter pasties? Your'e making me look bad to Tom and the gang. What did you do with Leon? Up,up, yes you! Bong, bong,bong, do I dare inquire where you hid the bell, I don't think so.
Thats a good Boris, look, pretty blue pills, that' right, just swallow a few , I believe the situation will improve now, Boris off to the shed!

Morning our wayward travelers and the rest of the gang:

Once I undo Boris's night antics and a bit of barkeep, the Coffee pot will be humming with the freshest Arabaca and Kona bean blend , provided there are any filters left! Stop on by, were open for business with delectible offerings from the Mentor's Bakery and always stimulating conversation.

Dave

[West Coast S]

Morning again, located Leon wondering in the woods out back in a advanced state of catatonic fright. Ok, were back in business.

It occures to me that I would not desire to be an up and coming railfan these days, Railroading is now so sterile,bland and inpersonal . Perhaps that's why we yearn for the old daysand a desire to share common memories and experiences . As the years pass and shadows grow longer, I recall the small town which constituted my own small part of the universe..

We were a three station town, two fully staffed 24/7, Santa Fe, Western Pacific, Southern Pacific all graced us with there presence . I recall long summers spent helping the station agent hooping up orders for the ten or so SP freights that worked the line everyday or just observing the activity, I recall riding the caboose platform on the daily turn as it went about it's appointed rounds. First generation power was the rule. The ocassional appearance of large, modern road power was a event to be savored.

The Santa Fe had no patience with young railfans, dismissing all advances in a curt manner, that we ought to be doing something constructive. Eventually, this person retired and a more open forum was assumed by his replacement. Now, as long as we reported to the station before our adventures and swearing that we had informed our parents of our planned activities and a safety lecture, we were off to new adventures. Santa Fe maintained a small interchage yard with the SP. SP worked one side of town, SF the other. Many hours were spent observing the delicate dance required to sucessfully transfer cars between industry and yard and assure correct train makeup.

The Western Pacific operated only three days a week, using former Sacramento Northern and Santa Fe trackage to deliver steel coils to the mill located east of town. The former SN depot had sat unused for decades, a Greyhound Bus loading platform occupying the former track platform area. The WP always provided a fantastic show, as geeps hustled heavy coils around curves laid with light rail, designed for interurban operations, grades were equally interurbanrish and sometimes these coil movements would require a shove from the Baldwin S12 mill switcher to avoid a stall. Somehow, they got the job done.

The Mill road was a vertiable museum, utilizing Baldwin switcher power, being off limits, my occasion views were when it ventured to the small mill yard shared with Santa Fe and Western Pacific. On a school field trip I had the oppertunity to study one up close and tour the cab. Where are those Baldwins today?

Now, virtually nothing remains. The SP and SN depot were razed, the Badwins and first generation power and cabooses, so numerous in my days, sold off or sent to scrap. UP has embargoed the line and the rusting rails serve only for car storage.
The BNSF is the midst of a double track project and the depot is still manned.
Lacking a time machine, memories will have to suffice for time never to be again.

Dave [tup]

[Anonymous]

G'afternoon folks, all the talk of German Beer has raised my thirst for a Dortmunder Union in a heavy Stein, please Tom. Ah yes, in my foolish years (day before yesterday) many a German brew passed through the the old digestive tract. I'll bet *** is hoisting a few tankards of choice Celtic draughts in our memory even as we speak.[tup] Oh, I need to make a retraction! The model I mentioned was made by Strombecker as I recall, not Stromberg.[#oops] C.R.S. is no joke even when you're having fun.

Westcoast S, those are nice recollections from a far more pleasant era. As a rule, I found railroad personnel to be friendly to youngsters, more so than not. Conductors, Engineers, Firemen and especially Pullman Porters seemed to run from positive to good humored folks. I knew a Conductor on the Pennsy (Northeastern Corridor) and an Engineer on the B. & O. (retired) while living in MD and both had many a tale to tell. We who are not directly involved in the operations of the "real" thing sometimes forget how dangerous that work can be. A ticket master at K.C., MO Union Station lived kittycorner to our home on Holly Street. Even he had some "encounters of the third kind" with various Kooks "out there."[:O]

There have been so many good postings lately, maybe I can be forgiven if I just "lay back" and enjoy them. Rob, you've outdone yourslef with good humored mail, thanks. The Pennsy Fallen Flag is a keepr Tom. WOW, is that ever a "mind bender!" And, I agree with Dave that part of our infatuation with rail travel is predicated on a "kinder, gent'ler" America that we will never see again. My family wasn't wealthy but still we were able to have great times together and rail travel played a inseperable role in the mix. Dad had a 1939 Pontiac that had to last through the W.W. II years and it had already seen better days. By 1947, my Dad managed to buy a new Plymouth but not without paying a "Lug." That was the name given to an "under-the-table" charge on the Black Market. There was no choice: no "Lug," no Plymouth![:(!] Still, even during those years of deprivation, rationing and graft we managed to hold together, always mindful of the "living hell" that our Allies were going through and our boys sacrifice in the service. From the maniacal looks on the faces of protesters the other day; its obvious we are living in a shadow of what once was.

Okay Boris apparantely is now in "La La Land" so I'll ring the bell myself. Where is it? I'd best give Inspector Clueless a call. We don't want old 99's ding dong to fall into the wrong hands. Cheerio for now.

[nickinwestwales]

Well I thought I`d pop in and relieve Cindy for a couple of hours....( grow up you lot ) and what do I find but a deluge of post so will sit quietly at the end of the counter,scroll back and reply in fits and starts,give us a shout if you need a beer,I`ll most likely join you-It`s been a long,long weekend [C=:-)]