"OUR" PLACE - SEE NEW THREAD!

[Anonymous]

'Mornin Tom and you early birds. Just a decaf and Rye dry toast for now. Its looking as though "Rita" will be taking a path well west of me neighborhood. Well, some excellent "poop" on the CN. It has taken until now to scope out the many nuances of such a huge, far flung Road. The "National" had more R.O.W. than any in North America at one time (1950's?) Somehow, I am partial to C.P. and their steam loco roster of the early years. True, you can't go wrong with either and we have both.[^]

Thanks for some answers Trainnut 484. Now and then, its nice to know I'm not talking to myself.[:O] 'Round these parts, CSX and ConRail (BLECH!) are the "movers and shakers," though its all pretty mundane fare. AmTrak makes a couple of daily "token" runs out of Tampa at ungodly hours in a neighborhood you wouldn't travel in a Brinks armored truck. The old Station still stands and trains use the original platforms. I guess that is worth something; just haven't figured out what.

Pinellas Park, Fl. (my location) Chamber of Commerce make their offices in a replica of the old St. Pete Pass. Station. The site is on the last remaining CSX feeder to St. Pete. Many years ago, the St. Pete Pier was served by the City's trolley lines via rail causeway built on pillings jetting into Tampa Bay. A major hurricane changed all that long before I moved here in 1987. All in all, [zzz]!

I'll probably settle for a jaunt to Miami or Savanah, GA this Fall as the original New Orleans plan was "put on hold" indefinitely. BTW, we received news that AmTrak offered emergency service to N.O. before and after Katrina but there was no response from LA. authorities. Cruise ships were the preferred mode for temporary quarters rather than evacuation via rail. That Option makes perfect sense when you consider that Carnival (participated) and other ship's registry are in Middle Eastern Countries that desperately need our U.S. tax dollars.[bow]

Okay Boris, I can't stand you sober and you can't stand me "hammered!" Let's come to an understanding: you remain on your side of the "men only" blue line and I stay on my side. Also, you forgot to replace the seats on the bar stool pillars Monday morning and now, I am walking bow legged pending physical thereapy.[:(!] See ya's soon.

[siberianmo]

Good Morning Guys!

There's something that just needs to be said this fine day. coalminer3 CM3 if you're not a writer, you should be. There are so many train books out there, but I've never - repeat - never, come across anything that can propel me into the scene being described as what you've been submitting lately. This last accounting of your experiences, thirty some odd years ago with the B&M belongs chronicled in book form. Go for it! You surely have the ability and talent. Great piece. Thanx! [tup][tup][tup]

Ted A good morning to you down in the sunny [?] south. I recognize where you are geographically, but man oh man, Florida is the bulls eye these days for hurricanes. About the only good thing with the latest, is that the more populated centers are being spared - nevertheless, this year's installments of storms appears to be bent on running through the alphabet before the 'sesason' ends. Then they start on the Greek version ... hope you never witness Hurricane Omega! [tdn]

Unlike CM3 - passengerfan Al and West Coast S Dave my offerings are taken from sources not mine. Of course, I have submitted several "trip reports" along the way - but they had short lives, so to speak, these Fallen Flags appear to be catching on. That's why the SUMMARIES have an "index" of 'em. Glad you enjoy what's been Posted ..... [tup] I share your appreciation for the Canadian Pacific and their wonderful passenger trains. The Queen of the Fleet surely was The Canadian, kept in operation by today's VIA Rail's Canadian (note the absense of "The" - a subtle difference, but one that the rivet counters amongst us would be quick to recognize!) Of course, CNR's "Ocean Limited" still runs as the "Ocean" under VIA Rail's banner. Those names are important in railroading lore - just as Amtrak's long distance trains have retained many of the well known names, with vastly altered routes - it's the name that rings the bell for many.

Regading the continuing negativity regarding the Federal efforts before and atter Katrina - suffice it to say that a leftie media will give only a modicum of attention to the truth, therefore don't expect much regarding Amtrak's offer to help with the evacuation. That's not what sells, nor is it on their collective agenda to bash away, bash away, bash away all!

I'll be away for most of the AM - so, Cindy will be behind the bar! By the by, she's taking a sabbatical from the all female university up the road and 'round the bend. So, we'll be seeing quite a bit of her (yeah) (wow) [}:)] [:-,] this Fall and into the holiday season. She's consented to be placed on the payroll - but only if she's permitted to remain under my supervision and that of Chief Chef Nick [C=:-)] - how could I resist! Sorry, Ted - don't know what it is, but for some reason, she'd rather spend a weekend in the Shed than be under your charge! [%-)][%-)]

A note for all Don't feel slighted if I don't make a Posted reply to submssions where it is evident that no discussion is to ensue or if it is a direct response to someone elses commentary. I'm not into running up numbers - and if I somehow neglect mentioning your Post - it ain't personal!

Catch ya later!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[passengerfan]

Good Morning Tom Just Time for a cooffee and a couple of those diet pastries from the Mentor Bakery.
I don't belive that any railroad in North America made the effort to save passenger service more than the CN in the late 1960's and early 1970's before Via Rail took over all Canadian Passenger services.
The CN purchased dozens of used cars from U S roads mostly sleeping cars but including six full length domes from the Milwaukee Road and six Sleeper Observations.
CN offered Red White and Blue fares and litterally filled their trains. The CN shopped most cars and brightened the interiors up to give them a more modern appearance. They took old Fort series heavyweight observations and converted them to modern full length lounge cars for sleeping car passengers on such trains as the OCEAN, SCOTIAN, CHALEUR PANORAMA and SUPER CONTINENTAL. The full length domes were given bright attractive interiors and assigned to the SUPER CONTINENTAL between Edmonton and Vancouver and to the PANORAMA between Winnipeg and Vancouver. They introduced the RAPIDOS between Montreal and Toronto in 4 hours 59 minutes using conventional equipment and adding high speed geared A-B-A sets of GMD built FP-9 - F9B - FP-9 to power the trains. They then introduced The TURBOS articulated nine car trains with a turbo dome at each end so turning at terminals was unnecessary. These trains managed to operate between Toronto and Montreal in 4 hours 30 minutes.
CN next turned their attention to Southwestern Ontario introducing the TEMPO trains between Toronto - Sarnia and Toronto - Windsor . They usied existing Alco RS-18 roadswitchers initially with Cummings Hep units installed in the short hoods and high speed gearing for pulling the lightweight Aluminum Tempo cars (Rough riding at high speed). The cars today operate in Ski Train service in Colorado where they don't encounter high speed running and are far more successsful. No one made a more determined effort to fill passenger trains then CN and were far more successful at it then Amtrak in its first years. While rival CP let the CANADIAN become threadbare and worn CN proved that if you offered bright attractive trains with reasonable fares you could fill the trains. What happened a change of government and a different outlook to passenger rail services. But while it lasted the CN offered the best passenger rail services in North America throughout the late 1960's and early 1970's. It's to bad no one at Amtrak or Via paid attention.
P.S. And who could forget the Prime Rib dinner served in the CN dining cars they were scrumptious. Or how about the drinking areas of the lounge cars offering the free saltiest pretzels I have ever eaten, but they sure incouraged patrons to drink more.

[siberianmo]

G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #1

Here’s something to ponder with regard to our appreciation and fascination with

Classic Trains. Check this out …….

Many of the passenger railroads we’ve heard of and perhaps traveled aboard, had their start up in the 1800’s and early 1900’s. Check out these names of perhaps the best known:

Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe (1863)
Atlantic Coast Line (1900)
Baltimore & Ohio (1827) #1
Boston & Maine (1835)
Canadian Pacific (1881)
Chesapeake & Ohio (1867)
Chicago & Northwestern (1859)
Chicago, Burlington & Quincy (1855)
Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul (“The Milwaukee Road,” 1874)
Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific (1866)
Erie (1859)
Great Northern (1889)
Illinois Central (1851)
Kansas City Southern (1900)
Lehigh Valley (1855)
Louisville & Nashville (1850)
Missouri Pacific (1879)
New York Central (1914, although the formal adoption of that name came later)
New York, Chicago & St. Louis (“Nickel Plate Road,” 1881)
Norfolk & Western (1881)
Northern Pacific (1864)
Pennsylvania Railroad (1846)
Seaboard Air Line (1900)
Southern Pacific (1884)
Southern Railway (1887)
Union Pacific (1862)
Wabash (1877)
Western Pacific (1903)

[source:] The American Passenger Train

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[CFournier]

Hi TOM and the gang, a shot of Cragganmore svp. TOM, I haven’t found a single malt you wouldn’t know about! This Speyside malt is something else! I usually keep a bottle well hidden behind the others…
NICK, I saw Joe Walsh with the James Gang way back in 1973 I think. He was then as crazy a performer as he would become with the Eagles. “Tend my Garden”, “Funk #49”,”Ashes the rain and I” etc. I have the Melbourne farewell concert DVD and you should see Joe’s outfit ! OK, off-topic, Ring the bell Boris, this one round is on me!
Chris
[}:)]

[siberianmo]

G'day Guys,

I'm back for the rest of the day, thanx CIndy. I'm glad the boys behaved .... Oh, you're not [?] Hmmmmmmmm.

passengerfan Al Nice supplement to the CNR Fallen Flags series ....... I don't think anyone can top your experiences with riding those great North American passenger trains. [tup]

Chris Continuing on with the [#offtopic] subject of malt beverages and the Eagles ..... Didja know that Cragganmore was named after a hill located behind the distillery in the Speside region of Scotland [?] Further, this distillery, the creation of one John Smith, was the first to be lcoated along a rail line - Strathspey railway - and also had a private siding built in 1869. A fine malt whiskey indeed! [tup]

Joe Walsh is indeed a hoot and aside from that outrageous outfit he wore, what did you think of hte helmut cam [?] I think the solo singing is best left to Don Henley and Glenn Frey - Joe is a far better guitarist than a singer! [swg]

Fine Posts as of late, wouldn't you agree [?] Really keeping with the idea of "Our" Place where the talk of Classic Trains melded in with some fun and of course partaking in an adult beverage or three is what we strive to attain and maintain!

Catch ya later ........

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[BudKarr]

How about a frosty cold mug of Bud Lite for me today? Just one thanx, and hello to you, barkeep.

Congratulations to all of you who have posted so many interesting and on point topics. Well done and a good reason to keep coming back here.

I'm a bit turned off with what I've been seeing on these forums. Seems to me there are an abundance of jerks out there who have nothing better to do than to come up with the most innane nonsense to post. Surveys and foolish questions that apparently have no real merit ocupy all of the forums that I've looked at. Even this forum has some junk as well. What amazes me evven more are the people who answer these guys. Why encourage this nonsense?

One thing i liked about this idea was to be able to talk about specific topics on specific forums. Seems to me as if it is out of hand. Even on this thread there seems to be a propensiity on the part of a small number to ignore direct questions and also to make no mention of someone's fine work in putting together some very interesting and informative postings. That's just plain rude and I'm not up for that.

Well, I have enjoyed my visits here at the bar and think that Tom runs a tight ship, perhaps the only way to really stay on course. I thought you'd like the sea talk analogy - Tom.

Be seeing you as I search for a place to roost.

BK

[passengerfan]

Good Evening Tom Time for a CR and a round for the house.
Another fact leading up to Amtrak was that the Santa Fe only joined reluctantly near the last minute.
If Santa Fe had remained out of Amtrak it is doubtful if their would even be an Amtrak today. Failure to join would have mean't that the Santa Fe would still have had to operate the SUPER CHIEF/EL CAPITAN, SAN FRANCISCO CHIEF, TEXAS CHIEF, three SAN DIEGANS, two GOLDEN GATES and a Denver-La Junta connection. Santa Fe's reason for finally joining Amtrak was the need to replace many of the older cars with new ones and Santa Fe was not prepared to do that nor were the Shareholders willing to absorb the high cost of new equipment. If Santa Fe would have remained out of Amtrak then Amtrak itself would have had to operate competing trains such as the CITY OF LOS ANGELES and CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO. Not to mention what would Amtrak have done to provide service to Texas. Amtrak would have had to rely on Santa Fe solely to provide LA -San Diego service. They might have provided competing service to the GOLDEN GATES by keeping the SAN JOAQUIN DAYLIGHT. As it is today their is no connecting service south of Denver as their would have been if Santa Fe had not joined Amtrak. It is my belief that Amtrak put a great deal of pressure on Santa Fe to join the national passenger carrier. Santa Fe provided more than their share of equipment to Amtrak another reason Amtrak needed Santa Fe more than Santa Fe needed Amtrak.

[siberianmo]

Good Evenin' Gents!

Given the length of some recent Posts, we've had quite a bit to digest 'round here, which certainly makes for some great food for the mind. I think this upswing in the interest regarding Classic Trains may be squarely placed at the feet of West Coast S Dave with his most insightful Post of 26 Aug 2005, 17:33:03 back on page 87. From that point on, we've seen more 'n more on Classic Trains, which once again is why we are here (or should be!).

This brings me to BudKarr BK and his last Post - which appears to be a farewell. As far as "Our" Place is concerned, we are absolutely with your assessment regarding the nonsense appearing elsewhere on these Forums. However, we must also recognize that many "out there" regard threads like this one and some others as also frivilous and not in keeping with the "spirit" of Kalmbach's Forums. Always two sides, I suppose.

I have tempered my visits to other Forums simply because of the crap out there ... I try to be selective with regard to those I visit and what I post. Obviously, I have no complaints with having fun - but my tolerance for the BS floating 'round in cyber space is very, very low. So, on that score - I concur with you and commend you for your honesty in saying what's on your mind. [tup]

passengerfan Al I would guess that your commentary regarding Amtrak and Santa Fe, if Posted elsewhere, would create a firestorm in responses. No so 'round here. You posit an interesting hypothesis, but one that we'll never be able to test or prove. In the era you refer to, I was much more involved in what I did for a living than concern for passenger railroads. To imply otherwise would be disingenuous of me. I've stated before, that I've always been enamored with the passenger trains of old - but never in situations where I could take advantage of them on a regular basis. Being a sailor does that ..... Back to Amtrak vs Santa Fe. I am not in possession of the facts and must yeild to your commentary, as I have no reason to refute anything you've said.

However, I do wonder what entity would have surfaced in order to provide the northeast corridor with the service it surely required, along wiht all of the other routes not served by the AT&SF. Surely, once the signature railroads left the scene - something would have had to fill the void.

Thanx for the round - Boris ring the bell ...... [tup]

Interesting Posts lately, wouldn't you say [?] And by the way, with two Posts from you today - are you now back with us [?]

earlydiesels Dan I see your cyber name out there ... you have Email - PLEASE respond!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom and all.

A pint of the usual please. Would have called in last night but had another introduction to Missouri weather, the tornado siren, luckily one didnt develope but the T-storms kept me out of the bar My heart goes out to them facing severe weather keep safe all.

Caught up with the postings.May I buy around for ALL the REGULARS FOR SUCH GREAT MATERIAL[tup]. Being still new to American railroads this is a great way to learn.

[tup]for the photos on Sunday unfortunately I am still in the stone-age with a 35mm camera.

Mention of the Strathspey Railway part of which is still operated today as a steam preserved line running from Aviemore from part of the main-line station to Boat Of Garten with an extension opening soon. The last time I visited the line a Caledonian
0-6-0 frieght loco #828 was working.

Glad Nick survived the camping trip just glad I cant play pool after SAT night [:-^] PETE.

[passengerfan]

Good Evening Tom, Guess I'll have another CR and better get a round for the house as well.
The answer to your question about being back is no I still have six more weeks of school but everyone needs a break.
The SP is a good example of a railroad that wanted out of the passenger business at the time Amtrak came along.
The SUNSET had been reduced to Tri-Weekly and carried a diner lounge and sleeping cars both mandated by the ICC in return the SP was permitted to operate the SUNSET tri-weekly instead of daily.
The COAST STARLIGHT was operating 3/4 length domes but for food service the train had one of the hated Automat cars.
The SAN JOAQUIN DAYLIGHT was reduced to coaches only and a 3/4 length dome and again a Automat for food service.
The CASCADE operated as still one of the finer trains although the automat had replaced the Cascade Club but sleepers and coaches were still operated.
The DEL MONTE was still operating between San Francisco and the Monterey Peninsula. This was usually three cars with one a parlor lounge for the first class trade.
The CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO operated with 3/4 length dome and automat for food.
Gone was the GOLDEN STATE, SHASTA DAYLIGHT, and SAN FRANCISCO OVERLAND three really excellent trains at one time.

[trolleyboy]

Good evening Tom and the rest of the crew. I have returned and am now beginning to catch up. CM3 First off I concur whole heartedly with Tom. An absolutely wonderful peice on the B&M.[tup][^] I can smell the creosote and warm journal bearings. This type of info is why I saty here as well as the comaradrie. On a semi unhappy note after a wonderfull Wedding in Kingston we had to come home and make a trip to the Guelph hospital. Suffice to say ( with out the needless details) Heather's Gran is slowly slipping away. At 93 she has done her time here so I may be a bit preoccupied the next couple three days.[:(] Barndad sorry to hear about your incident with the zepher. Hopefully your initial survay of damages is less than predicted. We have had few similar incidents but I know if your crews are like ours they tend to beat themselves up over these type of occurances. Please keep us posted. tom sunday pictures is a wonderfull brainstorm, I'm looking forward to them going forward. Nice early shots and good CNR info from both you and Al. Al I will be adding some shots or Dorcas bay as she sits now as our museum's crew sleeper to my railimages account shortly. Also some new museum shots period. Nick I've put some further thought to your initial yard question. Going back over some of the info I have I may have lead you astray. The yard may actually be CP's Agincourt yard again same type of facility as Mac is on CN. Either way they are both continually busy spots. CP Agincourt had one aditional claim to fame. Up till 9 or so years ago it was the home to the one and only RSD 17 roadswitcher#8923 ( uglly chopnosed in the 80's ) A one off MLW attempt to make a purpose built 6 axle RS 18 for transfer and roadfreight duty. This locomotive test ran on CN ,PGE and CP before it was purchased outright by CP. She was even dudded the Empress of Agincourt as she spent 90% of her life running transfer duty between CN and CP yards in Toronto. Madee the occational; long haul but she was CP's pride. Loco now rest in the Elgin County rail Museum in St Thomas ontario ( minus a prime mover she cracked her block which is why she was retired ) Well gentle men be well see you later. Rob

[siberianmo]

Last Call, Gents!

Seems like it has been a rather long day and it's getting time to rack 'em up ..... Whatillyave, Boyz [?] The round is on passengerfan Al - thanx! Boris two rings, please! [swg][tup]

Pete Always defer to caution 'round these parts when it comes to those funnel clouds. Never know ...... The first evening my family and I spent in Missouri, one touched down briefly and tore the siding off one side of our house and knocked out the air conditioner as well. That was our welcome to the Show Me State back in '77.

The more I read about railroading in Great Britain, the more I kick myself for not taking advantage of a brief visit I made in '71. One never knows when the opportunity will arises again ... so go for it when you can. I'd love to travel up to Scotland to see and enjoy what must be some great railroading.

Al Never heard of the "Automat" cars ... but surely know what the "Automats" were. They began in NYC, if memory serves me correctly, in Times Square. My mother used to "treat" me to lunch at one there back in the '40s before we'd take in a show at the Paramount, RKO, Capitol, or Radio City Music Hall theatres. Saw some terrific live performances on stage back then and a movie or two as well. "Automat" cars ... tsk, tsk - I just can't imagine those winning the hearts 'n minds of the traveling public!

You are painting a picture regarding Amtrak that I never knew. My impression was that it came into being because the passenger carriers all finally got the government's okay to bail out of the business, leaving a void. Rather than Amtrak coming along to chase 'em away. Hmmmmm. A different twist for sure.

trolleyboy Rob Glad the weekend turned out well, but sorry to learn of the situation in your wife's family. We all know and understand the inevitability of it all, but when the time comes - it's never easy. My way of dealing with these things is to reflect a bit on how forutnate one is (was) on being able to have spent so many years with a person that loves and cares for you. Heather, I'm sure is happy for that, as many people aren't so blessed.

[yeah] Sunday Photo Day seems like it will become one of our fixtures along with the Fallen Flag series. The former a chance to do something different while the bar is closed and the latter a chance to pick up a bit of info, perhaps not known or just tucked away in the recesses of the mind.

Okay guys - belly up and let's get 'er movin' [tup]

Nite! [zzz]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Gunns]

Evening all,
Coffee ann pastry

Still lots of intrest in passenger service here in NM, and I usally see the South Western Chief headed back to CHI, during our lunck break, it allways seems to be full.

Later
Gunns

[siberianmo]

WEDNESDAY’s NEWS & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

Mornin’ Guys!


News of the Day:

(1) Tomorrow is Fish ‘n Chips Nite along with our anticipated special on the Nick’s Picks Menu Board. Check it out – [dinner] Dinner begins at 5 PM (all time zones – don’t ask how we do that! [swg]

(2) Index pages for Fallen Flags Posts:

106 - SP
108 - MoPac
109 - WP
110 - Frisco
112 - CNR (fallen only as a passenger carrier)

Additionally: Heralds of the Fallen Flags are on page 112 and Passenger Train Nostalgia #1 on page 113.

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 00:16:35 (113) Tuesday’s News & Summary

(2) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 07:48:18 (113) B&M recollections

(3) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 07:50:28 (113)

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 08:34:46 (113) reply to coalminer3 & Theodorebear

(5) passengerfan Al Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 09:56:48 (113) CN recollections

(6) siberianmo Tom Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 13:39:07 (113) Passenger Train Nostalgia #1

(7) CFournier Chris Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 13:42:00 (113)

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 15:10:20 (113) reply to passengerfan & CFournier

(9) BudKarr BK Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 16:29:14 (113) Goodbye [?]

(10) passengerfan Al Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 18:45:47 (113) Amtrak vs Santa Fe

(11) siberianmo Tom Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 19:30:58 (113) reply to BudKarr & passengerfan

(12) pwolfe Pete Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 22:36:04 (113)

{13} passengerfan Al Posted: 20 Sep 2005, 23:12: (113)

(14) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 21 Sep 2005, 00:03:51 (114)

(15) siberianmo Tom Posted: 21 Sep 2005, 00:44:08 (114) reply to pwolfe – passengerfan – trolleyboy

(16) Gunns Kevin Posted: 21 Sep 2005, 00:46:33 (114)

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[siberianmo]

Here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:

Atlantic Coast Line

Headquarters: Jacksonville, FL

Route mileage in 1950: 5,528

Locomotives in 1963 (all diesel-electric):

Freight: 170
Passenger: 62
Dual mode (freight/passenger): 234
Switchers: 119

Rolling stock in 1963: Freight cars – 28,847; Passenger cars – 405

Principal routes in 1950:

Richmond, VA-Tampa, FL, via Jacksonville and Orlando.
Wilson-Wilmington, NC
Wilmington-Pee Dee (Florence) SC
Winston-Salem, NC-Florence
Florence-Atlanta
Brunswick, GA-Montgomery, AL
Birmingham, AL-Waycross, GA
Albany-Dunnellon, FL
Jacksonville-St. Petersburg, FLA via Gainesville, Leesburg and Trilby
Dupont, GA-Naples, FL

Passenger trains of note:

East Coast Champion (New York-Miami)
West Coast Champion (New York-Tampa & St. Petersburg & Sarasota)
Tamiami Champion – Predecessor of East and West Coast Champions
Florida Special (New York-Miami & St. Petersburg)
Miamian (Washington-Miami)
Vacationer (New York-Miami)
Havana Special (New York-Key West, FL)
Palmetto (New York-Savannah & Augusta & Wilmington)
Everglades (New York-Jacksonville)
Gulf Coast Special (New York-Tampa & Ft. Myers & St. Petersburg; formerly Havana Special)

Of note: North of Richmond, RF&P and PRR handled passenger trains.
South of Jacksonville, FEC handled trains bound for Miami and Key West.
SAL handled trains headed for Miami south of Auburndale, FL in 1963.

Other carrier’s trains destined to Florida, such as the City of Miami – South Wind – Flamingo – Dixie Limited – Dixie Flyer – Seminole and Southland were combined with named ACL trains.

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[coalminer3]

Good Morning All:

Round for the house and coffee for me, please. I was looking through the summaries and enjoyed the comments about the CN. My experiences re the CN, until I traveled to Canada were largely confined to seeing their power on the Central Vermont. CN diesels used to show up regularly on CV freights which made for interesting trains.

Once I got to travel to Canada I found both CN and CP folks to be helpful, especially to "out-of-town" folks.

One thing I remember is being at Woodstock, NB, standing in botomless mud, taking pictures of a wide variety of equipment. One of the employees said to me, "If you think this is fun, you should go out to the West End in the winter." I have been to the west end, but not in winter - that's something on my "to do" list. I looked up an ancient CP timetable in the stack of stuff and discovered that there was RDC service through Woodstoack in 1961. The line ran between McAdam and Edmundston. CP gurus can shed more light on this, but did not CPR call their RDCs Dayliners? Anyway, McAdam had a revealing footnote in the timetable, "Meal station where food and news supplies can be obtained at city prices." Woodstock also had a similar footnote.

All of which brings us to Smiths Falls; a fascinating place if you have never been there as it was served (still is, for all I know) by CN and CP. Back in the day CP had an engine facility and I remember showing up there at 3:00 a.m. one winter night/morning afther driving up from Watertown, NY in a delightful snowstorm. The night man, who sorts resembled Boris (seen it all, done it all, has the scars to prove it) looked up when I came in the office and asked permission to go out and take pictures, puffed on his pipe a couple of times and said, "I don't care, just don't fall in the hole where the enigines go 'round and 'round," and went back to his paperwork. I nearly froze to death but got some beautiful slides. People treated me well in Toronto when I was there - it's hard to believe that Spadina is gone - and I got a walking tour through the Canadian when they were making it up in the coachyard. I can see I better go find the notebooks and see what I can put togther on this.

Last thanks for the kind words re some of my posts.

Have a good day.

work safe

[Anonymous]

Hi Tom and gang, just enough time for a quick "un-leaded" and a toasted English. Some really fine posts of late which jolted the gray matter under the "gray matter," under my gray engineers cap and goggles. Passengerfan Al's comments on the "possibilities" if Santa Fe had demured from joining AmTrak, surely inspired some provocative speculation. Since the price of "round fare" is the same for "one and all," I would like to conjecture that Santa Fe, left to their own choices, could have made a positive difference [certainly] in the Southwestern U.S. quadrant. I say this because I always believed AmTrak granted disproportionate leverage to the "high volume" routes alone. In my opinion, Amtrak in typical bureaucratic fashion, could see only the "hole...not the donut." Two major fallicies were: one, independent Road "choices" were not an option; and two: federal econonmists, not railroad execs., had the final word. In other words, AmTrak was doomed from the beginning (my opinion).

Wish I could stay longer but a number of [#offtopic] issues demand my persoanl attention. They are the sort of things that some would describe as "junk." Taken to the next level: imagination, levity, nostalgia and comaradrie fit into the same "pigeon hole." Taken to the final level: It follows that only builder's plans, route and time tables, mergers, profit & loss reports, data and stats. should be considered "in order." Wait a minute! Did I just describe a "Forum" or a URL? Okay Boris, hit the bell for "Junque's" old time sake. Happy rails[:D]

[siberianmo]

Good Morning!

What a way to start the day .... a very early morning visit to the Dentist (no harm, no foul [swg]) - No mention of my very early morning Fallen Flag - ACL by our morning visitors - Arggggggh! And once again I see Chris is lurking in the shadows ... but no Post! [%-)]

coalminer3 CM3 Some info regarding the RDC in use by CPR and CNR:

CNR initiated testing of a BUDD RDC-1 on Feb 16th, 1951 for service between Montreal and Ottawa.

CPR initiated BUDD RDC service, on a trial basis, between Montrreal and Mont Laurier, on Feb 1st, 1953.

In 1953, BUDD RDC's became mainstays on many Canadian routes. CPR called them Dayliners, whereas CNR referred to them as Railliners..

Thanx for the round and continued dialogue! [tup]

Ted Regarding the Amtrak discussion: Somewhere in what passengerfan Al begun, I'm lost in the translation. I have been laboring under the impression that Amtrak was only created for one reason - to ensure a degree of continued passenger rail service due to the demise of the "signature flag" roads. No [?] How do they warrant the status of villan in all of this [?] I've surely missed something. Then again - as I stated earlier, I'm hardly an Aficionado regarding Amtrak's history. Perhaps I better dig through the cyber archives ... I'd rather go with fact than anecdotal.

That fall rail trip of yours perhaps should be planned for an arera not anticipated to be in the path of any hurricanes! Good Gawsh Gertie - what a season! C'mon up to the mid-west - surely we can conjure up something that would qualify ....... [swg]

See y'all later! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

Hi again Tom, its about time for a nice chilled bottle of Lowenbrau Dark. Yes, to my knowledge, AmTrak was a "stop-gap" measure when deregulation of R.R.'s came about because many roads were losing heavily due to the very same "regulations" that were previously in place phew. As I understand it, some Roads were still solvent in the passenger market and would have maintained a few schedules if left to their "choice" as to which trains, which markets and the "make up" of the consists. Before AmTrak, the Fed made it mandatory for money losing "full service" consists be included based on the areas served (sq. miles); schedules (times enroute); ridership (estimated) and a whole plethora of details yielding an index of which schedules must be served and what the consists must include. When so many major Roads opted for discontinuing service, it then was clear that the few "hold-outs" could not maintain the expense of way buildings, staff, crews, et al. The obvious solution was for the Fed to simply loosen their existing paralyzing corporate taxes and "death grip" regulations on
ALL the private Roads. Then, the Fed could step in where needed to subsidize, e.g. the North East Corridor and other vital routes piece meal. There are many more nuances before and after Amtrak was formed. This is only a "bare bones thumb nail" of my understanding of how things have come to such grief today. No doubt, other and better input will be in future replies. AmTrak isn't the villain, only the scape goat for Federal bureacratic meddling gone mad.

[#oops] My ride is due for a social committment made that I dare not mention lest I be labeled a Junque Meister.[:O] Love the ACL "Fallen Flag" data![tup] Keep 'em comin' Tom, keep 'em comin'! YEAH

[siberianmo]

Hiya Ted

Now the Amtrak picture is getting brighter .... your info, along with what I've found thus far in my browsing, has filled in many gaps quite nicely. Thanx! Recognize that sometimes opinions do in fact parallel facts, it's just a matter of verification. Just the way we anal types are .... [swg] Figures that the very government responsible for the demise of the passenger railroads, would create an entity designed to save passenger railroading, but at the expense of the remaining few trying to roll on. <yikes> Must have been W's fault, donchathink [?]

Don't follow you at all regarding your reference to Junque Meister and junk Am I missing an inside joke or something [?]

Enjoy the Lowenbrau ....... love that shade of blue! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[passengerfan]

Good Afternoon Tom , Guess I'll have a CR and better give a round to the house.
Although the BN was just a year old at the start up of Amtrak they were still running a fine stable of trains. There was the EMPIRE BUILDER and NORTH COAST LIMITED between Chicago and Seattle/Portland both first class dome equipped streamliners. The WESTERN STAR/FAST MAIL and MAINSTREETER were operating St. Paul to Seattle and Portland with cross platform transfer in St. Paul to and from Chicago. One INTERNATIONAL was operating round trip daily between Seattle and Vancouver. Their were still three Seattle - Portland trains althouh one was a UP train. The CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR ran only between Chicago and Ogden with cross platform transfers to the CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO to and from Oakland. The DENVER ZEPHYR one of the finest streamliners in the land and the last long distance full service streamliner to enter service was still racing overnight between Chicago and Denver. The former CB&Q was also providing service between Lincoln and Kansas City, Kansas City and Chicago, Lincoln and Chicago and Chicago and Minneapolis. Service to Texas had alreday been discontinued from Denver as were the Lincoln - Billings trains. Service between Winnipeg and Grand Forks was operating connecting with the WESTERN STAR/FAST MAIL. And their was still Twin Cities - Twin Ports service daily. A lone RDC was providing service between Havre and Great Falls daily in each direction.
Service was not what it once was but those trains were in top condition and the BN and surplus cars to draw on for peak travel periods. The pendulum had swung as it was no longer the pro passenger carrier the individual roads had been (GN,NP,SP&S, CB&Q, C&S-FW&D). All of the Budd built cars for the GN and NP along with the CB&Q cars went to Amtrak along with many of the P/S built cars. It was interesting to note that even though the merger had taken place a year prior to Amtrak not a single complete train set received the new BN paint. A numberinng system for the BN passenger cars had been devised but few cars had new numbers applied.

[pwolfe]

Hi tom and all.


A pint of Bathams and a bacon sarnie if you have got one please [tup]



Great insight in to Amtrak by TED and all.

In 1971 the standard guage steam scene in Britain was not too good, with British Rail finishing with steam in 1968 and a ban on preserved steam locos on the main line, which was lifted a year or so after and fortunatly has gained strength. Some times there are as many as three main line steam tours on a single day. The standard gauge preserved lines were just finding their feet in '71 with very few operating compared with today. But ;71 was a still a good year to see some of the first generation of B.R. Diesels.

Yes TOM there seems to be something very special about travelling by train in Scotland speically with steam, single track lines past desolate moors and serene lochs with the locos reflection in the loch and exhaust echoing of the mountainsides.[wow].

The longest train on B.R. is the Caledonian sleeper which is quite like the Classic Trains consists discussed in the bar. It has 19 cars mostly MARK 3 sleepers with 2bar/ lounge cars. It departs London Euston on six nights a week and runs to Edinburgh where it splits into three portions Aberdeen, Fort William and Inverness.

I can give some details of steam in Scotland if you gentlemen would like[tup]

ROB .Sorry about Heather's gran. All The Best PETE

[siberianmo]

G'day pwolfe Pete

By all means DO share your insights regarding Scotland and its steam trains! [tup]

By the by - you have Email - at least 3 .....

A bacon sarnie [?] Sorry - that doesn't even come close to ringing a bell! [swg] We serve only the best sandwiches in the county 'round here during lunchtime and throughout the remainder of the day - hoagies/grinders/subs/heros - whatever name you prefer - we've got 'em. Made with the freshest meats in these parts and freshly baked bread from The Mentor Village Bakery. [tup]

Bathams we've got! [swg]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[West Coast S]

Afternoon Tom and the gang...A round for the house to atone for my recent silence.

Regarding the par excellent fallen flag additions and a personal opinion from viewing the anadotes that one must admire the audicity of the ACL for choosing purple and silver for its early passenger livery. My devotion to modeling the SP would be seriously tested if the correct S scale model for these early E units were to be produced. Too orginal not to like, 12 to the foot or in 1/64.

Hope you enjoy this orginal.

Once upon a time only the wilderness existed

Persons of bold and daring vision forsaw the great potential inherent in the land and the endless possibilities of a nation determined to prosper

Once upon a time iron rails, laid by the stout labor of many, hewed solid granite, bridged the mighty rivers on frail trestles and braved winters ravages and unbearable summers and personal hardship to cut a path where none existed.

Once upon a time Baldwin, Cooke and thousands more supplied the needs that were so vital as to cause one to wonder if the industrial age concided with the developement of the American railroad or did the railroad spur American industrial developement , one nation working together for a common cause regardless of creed, religion or wealth, in times of peace and in the darker periods of depression and war.

Once upon a time, pride and customer satisfaction was the creed of the railroads. A time when engineers and conductors wore bow ties on starched white shirts complete with bowler hats , the timeless uniform of the Pullman conductor and always the warm, heartfelt greeting or the friendly passing wave and the everpresence smile.


Once upon a time the wail of a steam whistle and the rush of exhaust in the night, beckoned all to ponder what lay just over the horizion and set alight the inner yearing to to be free from the burden of the everday, mundane routine.

Once the common, it is now but a passing fog upon the mist of time, yet the eipic tales of yesteryears remain just within reach of those with a desire to recall what once was and can never be again, the Golden Age of American Railroading.

Dave [tup]

[Trainnut484]

Good afternoon Tom and all. I'll have a Miller Lite please. I'll try to stay a little longer this time [;)]. Nice information about the ACL.

Regarding the Santa Fe's reluctance to join Amtrak, it was pointless financially to keep the varnish running. The Santa Fe ran their passenger trains with great pride and service until the last day. Amtrak needed the passenger equipment from all the roads it replaced in passenger service, and that resulted in colorful consists since Amtrak didn't care if it mixed Santa Fe and UP or other roads together. Shortly after Amtrak took over Santa Fe's passenger operations, service declined on the Southwest Chief to the point that SF told Amtrak to discontinue using "Chief" in the name, because they didn't want the poor service to reflect on their proud heritage. I remember nbr 4 (LA-ChI) being late due to being stalled on Raton Pass because of lack of motive power. Santa Fe had to provide one of their own locomotives to help out. Amtrak changed it to Southwest Limited. It took about ten years for Amtrak to bring service back up to approved status. Then Santa Fe allowed the reuse of "Chief" in the name.

Since there was great response of seeing the KCS F9 in those classic colors, I'll post another pic of it. I guess a sort of "Hump Day photo fun" [:D]. NO NO Boris, not THAT kind of hump day. [V] Sheesh.

Enjoy [8D]


Pwolfe Pete, I would also be interested in hearing about Scotland's classic trains.

I'll have another Miller Lite please

Russell

[siberianmo]

Evenin' Guys!

West Coast S Dave You may recall a Post I made a few pages back of Gordon Lightfoot's "Canadian Railroad Trilogy." Says it all regarding connecting a nation from sea to sea by rail - kinda like your thoughts. Well done! [tup]

Your comments regarding the "availability" issue with S scale is precisely what my chagrin with it has been. Great looking, for sure - but not enough of it in terms of selectivity.

Trainnut484 Russell Always appreciate seeing that F9 in KCS livery - beautifully done! I've got a shot of her from the window of an Amtrak train back on St. Pat's Day 2005. Your photo really brings out the details. Thanx! [tup][tup]

Also enjoyed the insight regarding the Santa Fe and the use of the "Chief." Once again, learned something new, and pehaps never would have known if not for this thread! [yeah]

My readings of the situation amongst the U.S. passenger roads in the days right before they departed the landscape is that the parent roads simply wanted out. Now that's now what the railfans of today want to believe, but the profit wasn't there. Not one of the "signature flat" roads made any money from passenger service - not a one. Of course the decisions of the federal government, the courts and yes - the unions - really helped screw up the works. That's a given Nevertheless, if left to "natural" devices - we still wouldn't have those roads today. Automobiles on expanded highway systems along with air travel simply overtook 'em all.

Amtrak - love 'em or not - they are all we've got. Hope they - or something more innovative and modern - continue on. I'd simply hate to wake up one day in America to find that we no longer have long distance passenger trains.

Enjoy the evening!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[passengerfan]

Good Evening Tom, Guess it's time for another CR and a round for the house.
Just wanted to throw some additional coal on the fire regarding my contention about Santa Fe almost opting out of Amtrak. The fact was Amtrak got over 440 passenger cars from AT&SF more than any other RR that joined Amtrak. The SCL was the only other railroad to supply in excess of 400 cars to Amtrak. The PC supplied just over 300 and the BN,UP and SP combined supplied about 450 cars.
So as one can see Amtrak certainly needed Santa Fe more than Santa Fe needed Amtrak. And remember some of those former AT&SF cars still operate today on Amtrak the Hi-level lounge cars now operated as Pacific Parlor Cars. Santa Fe kept their equipment in tip top shape due to the nature of the speeds their trains were operated at. Many miles of the AT&SF mainline were equipped with ATS (Automatic Train stop) so 90 mph running was the norm. If a RR is going to operate at those speeds than the equipment must be well maintained.
Remember Santa fe was one of those RRs that believed passenger trains reflected on the entire RR so they always maintained a best foot forward. And not all of their trains made money but AT&SF was ready to take that risk and only after urging by Amtrak diid they finally decide to go with the Government passenger carrier.

[pwolfe]

Hi Tom And all

As I am to talk a bit about Scotland can I have an ORKNEY'S DARK ISLAND please[tup].

In the west of Scotland beneath Ben Nevis is the town of Fort William it is connected to Glasgow by the West Highland Railway. 40 miles on from Fort William is the line to a fishing port named Mallaig. A single track railway with passing loops steep climbs,viaducts mountain scenery and running along side lochs. During the summer months THE JACOBITE steam hauled train runs this route six days a week. It has been a great success. There is usually two locos used mainly of the mixed traffic 4-6-0 types although some 2-6-0's have been used. As there is not a turn-table at Mallaig the engine has to work tender first back to Fort William. The noise from the stack as it climbes out of Mallaig through a rock cutting from the car window, next to the engine's front, has to be heared to be believed. Each exhaust beat like an explosion in the ears.

After the season ends in September they run a railfan special to get the locos back to their home base. In 2000 a 11 day Steam Highland Festival was organised which I was fortunate to go on.I will have to check up on one or two details from a friend in England as my notes are still over there.

[wow] I've forgotten how strong this Orkney ale is or should it AWKney ale now PETE.

[trolleyboy]

Good evening Tom and the gang. I'll have a cherry brandy and a round for the house to celebrate Heather's Grans life. Pete and Tom Thank -you for your words, they are apreciated. We are planning a suitable celebration of life for Barb on Saturday.We had recieved the news of her passing during dinner. appropriatly i had Heathers Mom and dad and her sister over for dinner so we were all together. Now back to our main subject at hand. Tom and Dave and al I too have learned things of Amtrak that i had not known. Funny that we can talk of Amtrak as a classic, but I suppose it's formation is a matter of history past.Hopefully the company itself dose not become extinct, I beleav that that would be a grave misfourtune for the US. CM3 It is interesting to note that CN tended to try out new locomotive classes on the CV. Many new deisel types were first torture tested on the CV and GTW. I've seen many a shot of brand new Cliners, geeps and RS types hauling the varnish and freights over these roads generally months before their appearance on the lines in Canada. Torture in the hills before use on the prairies and flater bits of Ontario and Quebec. Some of this was due to the fact that the initial diesel units were purchased from the US plants before the Canadian counterparts had the patterns and production ramped up. Indeed customs laws dictated that some of these units could only run in the US ! I miss the Green and yellow of the early CNR, one hopes that in their infinate wisdom they may choose to do a few "herrtage paint jobs " Tom and Dave I noticed in the oct MR that S helper service is bringing out an SW 9 switcher. The photo showed a beautifully painted B&M minuteman painted unit. Given time you may yet get the F units that you so desired. Pwolfe The scots are indeed luckey that so much steam power can still be brought together for those steam fests. We in North America need to learn from this. there is but a handfull of preserved functional steam here. True work of groups such as gunn's and Barndads and a few here in Canada are slowley changing this but more needs to be done in my humble estimations. I do however remember riding CNR 6060 the last of the functioning Bullet nosed u2 mountains when it ran excursion service from Toronto to Niagara Falls in the summers. Thankfully 6060 is still doing yeoman service albeit in private hands out in Alberta. They even ran a double header excursion with the squamish based Royal Hudson 2860 in the late eighties. Apparently 2860 is on its way back to life the West coast rail society is starting the restoration efforts with an eye to returning this Hudson to it's former glory. http://www.wcra.org take a peak if you are a steam buff. I have again updated my traction shots with some more raret shots of our museums not quite so regularly used equipment. Shots will be found on page 7 of the album. Well gentlemen those of you possibly in the weathers way please be carefull. I'll drop by again tomorrow. Rob