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Posted by nickinwestwales on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:35 AM
O.K. Tom-you win !!!!!!-how are you managing to change them after posting---has anyone else spotted this or am I even more paranoid than I thought ?.......waaah ROB-fine country indeed,sis would be there still if not for a bad outbreak of politics, apparently region was opened up to take advantage of rich glacial deposits which make for good growing, but as soon as that first nugget caught the light of day-well you know how that works... My only memory of Eaton Centre dates back to family visit in July `77-caught in monsoon like downpour,took shelter,thoroughly soaked-air conditioning on full blast,nearly turned blue before getting out ..... MANAGER TED- checked back on A.P.T--original unit A.P.T-E (gas turbine ) preserved at York, 3 A.P.T-P ( electric ), 1 unit currently undergoing restoration at Rugby,other two presumed scrapped,catch you all later,nick[%-)][C=:-)]
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Posted by Gunns on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:48 AM
Evening all,
coffee please and a bagle.

Tom The "Mine Shaft Tavern" dates back to the opening of the mine in Madrid, and is just a short stagger from the pit head. Coal has been mined there since the early 1800s and was a principle supplier of the AT&SF. Mining stopped in 1959 but the tavern lives on....
http://www.mineshafttavern.com/
Gunns
http://www.nmslrhs.org/
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:47 PM
Hmmm well I don't know I left at least three or four lines of spacing between the paragraphs and it still posted together. Not sure what else I can do. Sorry Rob
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:43 PM
Hello Leon. draw me a nice guiness if you please. I see the boss is gone for the day so this will be a short stay


Nick I thought that you would like theNCR bit. Nice to hear that your sis enjoyed her time up in Gods country. My moms uncle had a farm of sorts in NL. I'm not sure what one could really grow up there other than rocks, but he and Aunt Victoria lived there for close to 70 years before retiring to Toronto. At Vick as she liked to be called lived to the ripe age of 102.(passed away in 1998 ) She is actually the reason I got interested in the TTC. Aunt Vick lived in Queen street in Toronto and because she was a stubborn Victorian lady she did all her own shopping till the end. this ment that she jumped onto ( not litterally ) the subway made her way to Younge street and did her weekly shopping at the Eaton Centre.Man I wi***hat if I make it to 102 I have half her strength and charisma ! I thought that I would add a small nostalgia bit myself once in a while. I'll call it classic streetcar manufacturers.The first up will be a very little known one called the Tillsonberg Electric Car Company.They started up in april of 1913 in the town of Tillsonberg Ontario right in the middle of oxford county, which is prime tobacco country still today. For those who know southwestern ontario Tillsonberg is 40 km east of St Thomas.The plant was constructed inside of two quonset huts. There first cars were built in November of 1913 the laast cars were built in 1917.A short life but the advent of WW1 caused streetcar orders to dry up as most of the wood and steel and copper were earmarked for war production. This coupled to the fact that they had set themselves up to build "traditional" streetcars in that they were all wood bodied and framed. it's felt that they didn't have enough money to restart in the 1920's with an all new steel fabrication business.The plant is still in existance today in that the original quonset huts are still there now incorporprated into a larger auto parts plant. Production of streetcars is as follows. In 1913 they built s cars for the Windsor Essex and lake Shore Rapid Railway cars 312 and 313 which were all wood DT De interurban coaches. their second order in 1914 was for two cars for the Dominion Power & Transmission Company cars 173 and 174 which were DT DE all wood express baggage cars. Their final order was for 12 ST city cars for the Saint John Railway Company ( NB ) cars 106-128 ( even numbers only ) One car of this classe's body still exists as part of the Delson railway museum. Here's an exerpt of one of Tillsonberg's newspaper ads run to drum up business for the company. i will directly quote it's text. The Tillsonberg Electric Car Company , Limited. Builders of all kinds of Electric Street Cars,Sweepers , Sprinklers,also all kinds of rolling stock for steam railways. Beg to announce we are now ready for operation and would appreciate the opportunity of submitting drawings and specifications,together with prices on any of yourrequirements for the above lines. Factory is equipped with the most modern and up-to-date machinery. We solicit your enquiries where early delivery is a requisite. This was run in august of 1913 just as the plant was openning for business. well folks it's been a wonderfull day i'll catch you all tomorrow. Rob PS Tom Hope the spacing worked out[tup]
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:08 PM
Evenin' Gents,

Last call before I turn the bar over to Leon the Night Man! But first a couple of comments:

Rob Man oh man, you've Posted a bunch after a brief hiatus from the bar. Good to have you back in action! [tup]

Perhaps I've overstepped with my suggestion regarding paragraphs. They are very difficult to achieve with this "forum format." So what to do [?] Just put some space between thoughts, which will have the same effect as paragraphs.

Like this!

You watching this, Nick[C=:-)] - A bit paranoid about that smilie eh [?] [swg] Whatever you're drinking, perhaps you need a double! [tup]

Not concerned a "whit" about the spelling and the like - it's the everything bunched together that gets rough on the Orbs! [swg] But hey, whatever floats your boat ......

Didn't mean to steal your thunder regarding the X2000 - go with what you have, BK will surely appreciate it!

Those "modern" NH and B&M paint schemes really made all the difference for rail watching. The older heralds had more "charm," for sure. But Mr. McGinnis surely did a lot with a couple of block letters in either case.

I think I'm ready to cash out .... Boris be sure the back door is locked and help Leon close up at midnight!

I just took a look at the number of Posts today - hit twenty - but back out mine, then it's down some. Anyway - thanx to all who stopped by - ALWAYS appreciated! [tup] Tomorrow is 'nother day, and I've got a Fallen Flag ready to go with perhaps another Nostalgia for later in the day. Stay tuned!

Catch ya in the 'morrow! [zzz]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by nickinwestwales on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 6:57 PM
Good Evening gents-[4:-)]TOM-or is that [C=:-)]TOM-( post-16:48:04) this is causing a bad case of the "little blue pixies"-keep it up and it`s Betty Ford time for me [%=)]--best make mine a large rum with a Staropramen to keep it company and refresh everybodys glasses whilst you`re about it ( yourself also,obviously ). As to paragraphs,this thread is the most `writing` ( other than set lists,menus and food orders ) I have done in 30 years. The triple whammy of spelling,grammer & punctuation is rather more of a challenge than I remember. However,in deference to your eyesight,will attempt to improve.[swg] Nice one on the New Haven-that McGinnis paint very easy on the eye,as was his B+M scheme from yesterday-As a lover of `F` units,was delighted to find an article on the Danbury,Ct. branch using FL9`s on push-pull workings until about 5 years ago,sadly mag. in storage at present but may be able to locate it for pix raid.-maybe AL can expand.....ROB-Nice one also [^] -sister worked in New Liskeard for a while in public health,so a particular `soft spot` for the area-much of her work involved dealing with the nations,many of whose camps & villages can only be reached by canoe-quite a culture shock for a simple South London lass ! Apparently Cobalt & N.L still classic `train towns`,where the depot is still the centre of town BK-Nice submission [tup] looks like the Boss has pre-empted my x2000 search with a direct route,will go and have a look directly MANAGER TED-not sure about A+R man-might you be thinking of Pete Waterman,a record producer,who as part of Stock,Aitken & Waterman was responsible for some of the last decades most grisly `pop` tunes ( Kylie Minogue et al ). He has a large collection of steam & diesel power which is leased out on charter work. As to the A.P.T (tilting train),don`t quote me on this,but I think 3 were built,2 cut up,the 3rd dumped on a siding behind Derby test centre ( PETE may be able to confirm or deny on his return) Ghost of an idea that some stock in a museum somewhere ( York ?) but could still be privately owned-will have a nose around when I have a moment. O.K. fellas,thats my batteries charged for another day,be happy,lucky or better still, both,regards,nick[C=:-)]
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:59 PM
Wow Tom no transgression intended [swg] I just look at the dollar signs for the Cdn and painted it with that wide brush of mine.I sort of figgured it was more the doing of the boarder folks than anything else on the train trip's. Boris ring that bell loud I'm buying fer the house to attone for my crazyness. off fir a nap now I think. Rob
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:54 PM
Hello Tom and everyone else. Tom I'll happily comply with your request. just one thing though. How the heck does one get paragraphs to work on this forum system. I have attempted just doesn't work.

Vito may not want to let out his sales past i may hire him [:O] The reason for the long day (daze) Was to do the interviews for our xmas staff. BTW only 115 shopping days[:O][xx(] left now whatchya buying me ?

[:O][swg]. update from my research dept. The NC only had cars built by the Preston car and Coach, I've found no hints or inducations of any ottawa products as i had formerly stated. the cars were as follows. # 2.4,6,&8 we built in 1910 #'s10,&12 were trailor cars built in 1912. #'s 14,&16 were built in 1913. First 18, &20 were built in 1914 and second 18,& 20 were built in 1919. the first 18 & 20 and #10 and #'s 2 & 4 were lost in the barn fire in 1917. So long for now make mine a coffee and hoagie to go thanks. Rob
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:48 PM
Yo Rob

Just caught your Post .....

Two points of "order"

(1) Regarding your first "senior" moment - no, VIA Rail didn't press for the discontinuance of the Chicago-Toronto run, nor did Amtrak. It was dwindlling ridership, as I understand it., and I'm hardly an expert with it. The problem, huge delays at the border thanx to Customs.

(2) Nope, a "dress code" isn't in force aboard VIA Rail. The point was, can you imagine what it would do if one were to be implemented [?]

Methinks you need a day's worth of sleep [zzz] m'boy! [swg]

Now back to ViA Rails "Canadian." Thems are fightin' words to call it a cruise ship on steel wheels. It still is a scheduled passenger train no matter who the passengers. [yeah] I understand that it probably comes as close to a blankety-blank tourist train, but the crews are "real" railroaders and there are scheduled stops. There are coach passengers and baggage cars. Having made that round trip twice within the past 5 years, I can see how one could come away with the idea that it is strictly for tourists. But ya know, if someone who lives in Sioux Lookout wishes to travel to Winnipeg, that can be done aboard the "Canadian." Can't do things like that on the "Rocky Mountaineer," for example. So, watch it - buster! This is MY territory you are trodding on! I'm the ViA Rail guy - you're the Troley guy - we CAN coexist! [swg]

Later!

Tom[4:-)][oX)][:-,]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:34 PM
G'day Gents!

it appears that my 4 hour moritorium on Posting hasn't hurt a thing, for several of you have picked up the slack and picked it up quite well indeed! [tup][tup][tup] That's the idea, isn't it [?] Shouldn't be just the barkeep doing the "jaw boning." [swg]

passengerfan Al Appreciate your input on UP's City of Denver. Also the positive vibes and informative stuff on the NH helps a lot as well! Thanx! [tup] Always nice to know that these efforts are not only being read, but picked up on as well.

trolleyboy Rob So you ARE among the living, eh [?][swg] Man oh man, perhaps I should send Vito the Hit to see your boss. Just doesn't seem right that thye actually make you work long hours for your pay. [swg] Vito has a way with woids - and he's a pretty good "shoe salesman," so I hear. A recent
QUOTE: : Youse don't want that I should have to tell ya again about my friend's friend being available, Youse gettin' the message [?]


So now one and all knows that our OKTOBERFEST Saturdays are history. We had two, with perhaps the 2nd being a bit moresuccessful than the first . For all - save the Lederhosen - we do have May Fest comin'! [swg]

Watch for the decision from the Can-Am County Attorney General regarding the decision on whether there will be a legally sanctioned marriage between our cloven footed freiend, Boris and the "fair maiden" from Oooompah Land - Hilda or is it Helga [?] Never get it right ........ [swg]

BudKarr Nice effort with your NH info .... for a guy who initially came across with minimal railroading prowess, you're doing quite well and it's appreciated! [tup][tup] I concur that there's no need to apologize for the source of your informatoin - at least you are TRYING and that makes all the difference. We are a CLASSIC TRAINS thread and keeping with that theme is what we're all about.

Rob Appreciate your interest and added info on the NH. Yes, it should spur a bit of additional dialogue (which it has!) and I look for some great stuff to follow. My readings on the "end" had them at the edge of the bankruptcy clifff. Perhaps coalminer3 CM3 can enlighten us on whether they could have survived without being put into PC. I'm no fan of PC, but they really "needed" NH in order for them to have a fighting chance at keeping the passenger sytem in tact. The New England lines were just that valuable. The U.S. Government was the driving force, but moreso as an arbitrator, as I understand it. There wasn't a strong case from anyone in the railroading world to maintain passenger lines in the northeast.

An observation: You gotta use paragraphs, m'boy! My aging eyes are having a hulluva time pickin' out the salient info on Posts that have info run together. You and Nick must've attended the same school - OR - skipped that part of the course! [swg] <grin>

Good stuff on that Nipissing Central" - it helps to have some helpl 'round here with innovative Posts and yours truly adds to the effort! Thanx - but paragraphs, man -paragraphs!

coalminer3 CM3 Is that you [?] Really! Well, you either forgot something at the bar earlier, or you heard the Siren's call of the NYNH&H! Happens! We look foward to whatever additional stuff you can provide. This road is a cherished part of my "history" and I hated to see it go. A wonderful railroad, in my opinion.

Okay - I'll be behind the bar as usual, but I'm going to let the Posts go to the Customers, with my last appearance for the day being a bit later tonight.

So, whatillyahave [?] This IS a bar 'n grill ya know! Vito, put that away - they'll order without any "help"! <geesh>

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 4:02 PM
Hello all again. Tom I'm a bit confused ( I know I can hear the jokes and snickers behind the bar ) VIA still in sists on a dress code for dinning car service ? I thought that practice was banned long long ago except on the Candian seeing as how it is essentially a cruise ship on steel rails. This is just another you learn something everyday type situation. On an interesting museum note, we are now running a train service. To clarify we generally run the cars as single units. We do hacve a PCC grinding train which can be run either individually or in tandem. The shop boys have got L&PS #8 back in passenger service ( been out a year due to a pantagraph snag ) The overheaad has not been reworked yet as many new poles need to be installed so to get this fan favourite car ( and crew favourite ) running again our oshawa line car # 45 has been fitted with train hose babs on it's one end. this allows it to pull #8 as a coach as all the L&PS cars were equipped to run as MU's. I'll try to get some photo's of the pair as it is a unique thing for us to operate this way. CM3 Routine or not hope you are not " off ' for too long. I would hate for you to miss out on the fun ' round here.[tup] Rob
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Posted by coalminer3 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:39 PM
Good Afternoon All:

Not used to seeing the sun on the west side of the building. Great posts today; Watch Hill and Bunker Hill were lovely cars that as passengerfan suggested were "converted" into other uses.

I will dig up some NYNH&H ads for you. My collection of tts for that road goes back into the late 1800s (if we include predecessor lines. Stay tuned.

They are abt. to drop our power for awile (scheduled interruption so I am out of here. Have a good night.

work safe
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:52 PM
Well it seems to have been another semi slow day so i figured that it was time to get "juiced up again" So from the vaults of the Brock street railway(road) library I give you ( Nick will be interested in this one )"Nipissing Central" A bit of local history first.


Early last century one could find one of Northern Ontario's most colourfull boom and bust area's around the town of Cobalt Ontario.In 1903 extensiver silver mines were discouvered and the town of Cobalt was built on top of some of the roughest inhospitable portions of the North woods ,and canadian shield one could imagine. The town was literally built ontop of rock out croppings with the roads strewn in and about the rocky terrain.The building of the Temiskaming and northern ontario railway T&NO ( now known as the Ontario Northland )ensured a route out of the mines for the silver producers.

So the town soared to a pop of 10,000 people and 52 silver mines boared into the shield rock.This is where the history gets a bit interesting.The railway decided that an electric rail line needed to be built to provide transportation to the ever growing mining camps in the area.Also beacause the town of Cobalt literally sat on so many of the minning claims no alcohol was allowed in the town for safety reasons and the nearest watering hole was in the next town of Haileyberry about 40 miles away as the crow flies. In 1910 the first cars started carrying thirsty minors from Cobalt to Haileyberry at the first terminal which was fittingly the local hotel the Vendome!


In 1911 the NC was officailly purchased by the T&NO this was to get a federal charter to build into the crown lands in northeastern Ontario and Quebec. In 1912 the NC ws extended to New Liskeard with it's new terminal on the wabi river. From there branches were built at Kerr lake ,and Crown reserve. It was a fairly short livered interurban. In 1917 a fire destryoed the main carbarns and most of the fleet in Cobalt. The Kerr lake branch was closed in 1925 and a new highway was built in 1927 conecting Timmons and Toronto, so the Crown reserve line was closed. By 1935 a new paved highway ( 11 & 17 ) was completed and the TN&O began running bus service ( ONR still does today )In 1924 the disaterous Hailyberry fire destroyed most of the town. Many of the interurbans cars and several hundred retired TTC wood cars were brought into serve as homes and businesses.


After the fire rail ,service ended between the last of the used route between Cobalt, Haileyberry and New Liskeard. The rolling stock was all double trucked built predominantly by Preston Car and coach and Ottawa car co. The line was standard railway guage. None of the equipment still exists todaybut the large "new" carbarns built in North cobalt still stands on Lakeview drive justwest of highway 11B. I'll try to dig up some pictures of the NC cars. More info should be able to be found on the official ONR sites as well. Rob
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:13 PM
Godd afternoon again. Still playing catch up somewhat here and at the museum site.So tom i think a round for the gang on me is required. BK I have to say a fine addition to the New haven saga[tup] the internet is a wonderfull tool , no need to feel it's usage as a bad thing.Sign of the times indeed I had read somewhere ( most likley a long gone copy of trains magazine )that the merger of the New Haven into that monolthic horror of Penncentral was strictly a governmnet decision. That the NH could very well have stood on it's own and continued running in black ink, but alas the merger killed them off along with the rest of it. Now my rather shaking understanding of the post appocaliptic( for north eastern railroads ) period of the 70's that the remainders of the NH still ran and do run most of the NY/NJ commutor rail networks. as i said my knowledge here is limited hpefully some of the others can / will jump in with the missing bits of info. So BK and Tom the NH should i think spark as much info exchange as the afforementinoned GN bits did.[tup] Rob
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Posted by BudKarr on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 2:01 PM
Good Afternoon Captain Tom and staff. I surely enjoyed the New Haven fallen flag data and thank you for honoring my request. I am a bit surprised that more of your regular customers have not inundated you with their selections. Nevertheless, thank you.

I cannot imagine that anything coming from me will be either enlightening or informative to those who know the NH. But here are a few tid bits of information regarding that prized railroad:

* Unlike the majority of other railroads, passenger train revenue was largely responsible for the success of the company.

* The railroad was considered to be a compact railroad, connecting virtually all of the towns and cities of Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts.

* The final order for steam locomotives by the NH was in the 1930's for ten streamlined Baldwin 4-6-4's Hudsons.

* The showcase of the NH direct rail link between Boston and New York was called the Shore Line Route. This route covered 229 miles and was the only direct rail link between the largest of the northeast cities.

* In 1938, a new service appeared on NH freights called trailer-on-flatcar (TOFC) and was introduced between Boston and New York City.

* Patrick McGinnis took over the NH in 1954 and changed the livery to the flashy orange, red and black which won immediate acceptance by the traveling public. Unfortunately, the rest of Mr. McGinnis' efforts were not so well received as the railroad began its downward spiral.

* A toy train company owned by A. C. Gilbert in New Haven, Connecticut, successfully marketed their NH replica trains. The GE EP5 electric locomotive was one. Some years earlier, Gilbert's line of trains, called American Flyer, produced the Pullman-Standard "turtle roofed" toy streamliners that became known throughout the region as "American Flyer cars" in the real railroad world. (Life imitating art?)

* Perhaps one of the NH's most successful ventures involved the purchase of Rail Diesel Cars from the Budd Company of Philadelphia in 1952-53. Forty cars were put in use over nearly 920 route miles of service. These self-contained cars, called Shoreliners, quickly ignitied the commuter rail growth for decades to come.

* The NH vanished from the scene in 1969 when a federal court ordered that it be included in the Penn Central, which had previously absorbed the bankrupt Pennsylvania and New York Central railroads. The PC went bust in 1970.

Note: The aforementioned was obtained through internet resources.

I think a nice cold draught is in order, one of those Keith Ales you talk so much about please.

The Union Pacific advertisement is interesting and one only needs to read between the lines to get a feel for the times. That is a well done series that you have put together and I hope you do not become weary of sharing those nostalgia posts with us. It is indeed a shame that one's efforts sometime go completely unheralded or noticed. It just may be that many take them for granted as another sign of the "routine" at Our Place.

BK
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Posted by trolleyboy on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:48 PM
Good afternoon Tom and all the ships at sea[swg] I have not fallen into the abyss, i had a looooong 14 hour day yesterday at the store. just as an FYI for everyone xmas is 116 days away [:O] Sundayy's pictures were far to numerous to mention each individually but I do have to say nice job everyone,glad to see that the Sunday picture fests are gaining in popularity and in participation [tup] now to some responces. BK I can understand the awe or wonder as to the modivations of modellers. We do all try to achieve some semblance of perfection in what we do. For me It's not the picture pefect "tangibleness" of a scene but rather a whi***o create. for what it's worth each and everyone of us has their own motivations as to the why? or the what? and how ? of the hobby. i do think that for most of us it is a realease from the days strains, the one thing that we have complete control over. likely not a heplfull response but I'm not one to try and speak for everyone else. perhaps the opther's can shed some personal insite as to their own personal why's and how's. As to the need for tom and I to help out Nick and Ted with their pictures, I think in both cases it was a matter of incompatable oposting sites. Tom and myself have running railimage and photobucket accounts so we are just being neighbouly. I like to think that I can help friends with the little things in life Doug thank's for clearing up the interurban car mystery. Further digging in my home records indicate that the car I posted the picture of is in One of the new england trolley museum's. Now as to your mystery car? i haven't the foggiest.[sigh] trhough my suspicion is that ted's hypothisis is likely the correct one. I'm guessing that the "shell" has no builders plates or marks of any sort on it ? Perhaps a digging in your museum's archieves may yeild a tid bit of info. someone must have known what the car was before it was brought to your museum. hopefully there is a bill of sale or transit stating what it is/was. Ted The snail mail is yet to arrive that however is no reason for concern as Canada Post has yet to retire all their horses. LOL [swg] I'll let you know once the pictures are up for you to pick and choose your next "posters" Perhaps you can build your layout up instead of out.That or knock a wall or two in to create the bigger space you long.[:D] Tom& Nick I thought that something had been missing on sat. [#withstupid] Thanks' BK for enlighteneing us. I don't suppose that the family tarten patterned lederhosen I purchased for myself will now go unused. Might make a good wedding outfit for Boris should the powers at be let huim cross that particular bridge. Nice contiued fallen flags there Tom. the new haven in particular is classic juice[tup] Ted a search of morning sun books will likley give some B&M and new england steam / diesel books for that matter. I'm glad to see the GN subject was still going strong. All hail the barkeep and his bottomless appitite for rail and rail passenger trivia and memorabillia. I shall attempt to take my leave of everyone for now. Oh just remebered Tom looks like no dice on the easy way to Windsor station from the big D. Everyone I've talked to has said bus ( greyhound ,car rental or personal or cab ) On eother possibility would be an airline shuttle bus service. I know of several that for instance will pick up and drop off in my area for the toronto or Buffalo airports. Perhaps a google or other search for similar airline shuttle bus service in the Detroit / windsor area, worth a look. It's funny that you mentioned that the Via / amtrak Chi to To train had been disconected on our side. I had been told by fairly reliable sorces that it was amtrak that spearheaded the discontionuance [sigh] I'm now more confused than ever. If BK is interested in Toronto i'd say the more the merrier we just need the finalized numbers of the who and the what. Rob
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Posted by passengerfan on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM
Good Morning Tom and the gang. Since its not noon yet better settle for a Coffee and a diet pastry from the Mentor Bakery.
Enjoyed your write up on the NH and thought I would add one quick note. The Merchants Limited was the only all Parlor train to achieve streamliner status. Unfortunately it lasted just a mere 90 days before coaches were added to this the most famous of the New Havens trains. They were also the only NH trains assigned streamlined observations also short lived. In fact the two Observations 475 WATCH HILL and 476 BUNKER HILL were soon fitted with a diaphragm at the observation end and relegated to mid train service in commuter trains. These were tavern lounge cars and it is my understanding one still servives today in private ownership.
Also enjoyed your piece of nostalgia on the City of Denver. The reference is to the second streamlined City of Denver trains that entered service January 10, 1954 with the following two consists:
Consist One
8900 Baggage Car (C&NW)
5200 20-Revenue Seat Coach 26 Seat Pub Car(UP)
3480 44-Revenue Seat Leg Rest Coach (C&NW)
3479 44-Revenue Seat Leg Rest Coach (C&NW)
5105 56-seat Dining Room Car 1/2 Twin Unit (UP)
5105 19-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car 1/2 Twin Unit (UP)
DREAM LAKE 4-Compartment 1-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car Articulated (UP)
BOULDER 12-Section Sleeping Car Articulated (UP)
PACIFIC ISLAND 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (UP)
PACIFIC MEADOW 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (UP)
1501 Buffet 36 Seat Lounge Car (UP)

Second Consist
8901 Baggage Car (C&NW)
5202 20-Revenue Seat Coach 26-Seat Pub Car (UP)
3482 44-Revenue Seat Leg Rest Coach (C&NW)
3481 44-Revenue Seat Leg Rest Coach (C&NW)
5106 56-Seat Dining Room Car 1/2 Twin Unit (UP)
5106 19-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car 1/2 Twin Unit (UP)
BEAR LAKE 4-Compartment 1-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car Articulated (UP)
GREELEY 12-Section Sleeping Car Articulated (UP)
PACIFIC SKIES 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (UP)
PACIFIC FORUM 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (UP)
1500 Buffet 39-Seat Lounge Car (UP)

Thats it for now will check in later.
  • Member since
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  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:59 AM
G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #10

Here’s something to enjoy regarding the Union Pacific from an advertisement in The Official Guide of the Railways – Aug 1956


Overnight – Every night
between CHICAGO & DENVER Streamliner ”CITY of DENVER”

THIS SMART STREAMLINER FEATURES . . .

* The very latest in Pullman equipment; de luxe
bedrooms with newly designed, convenient
lavatory facilities. Modern roomettes . . . no
need to step into the aisle to lower or raise bed.
Also long length, restful berths.

* Coach seats built for complete comfort. Stretch-
Out leg rests and reclining backs. All seats
Reserved.

* Unusually attractive dining car serving highest
Quality of freshly prepared foods.

* Beautiful club lounge for Pullman occupants
and distinctive tavern car ”The PUB” for all
passengers.

Early morning arrival in both Denver and Chicago


WESTBOUND
Lv. Chicago (Milw. Road) ………. 4:30 p.m.
Ar. Denver (U. P.) .……………….. 8:30 a.m.

EASTBOUND
Lv. Denver (U. P.) .……………….. 3:30 p.m.
Ar. Chicago (Milw. Road) ………. 8:45 a. m.

UNION PACIFIC RAILROAD



Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

CHECK THE MONDAY SUMMARY and INDEX PAGES FOR MORE GREAT NOSTALGIA POSTS!
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:57 AM
G'day!

I see coalminer3 has made his early morning visit and left us with another interesting Post, along with his now traditional round for the house and quarters for the Juke! [tup] Can't beat that ... [swg]

No hockey player in my mind's eye has ever been able to position himself so well at the net the way "Espo" did back in those two-cup years in Bahston! I was there - yup - caught those seasons on the tube and what great teams they were. Used to be able to name 'em all, including their numbers. Rebounding was Phils' "thing" and he did it oh so well. I caught a game up in Montreal a few years back, but at the "new" rink - didn't have the "pizzazz" that I had hoped for. Nothing or no one stays the same ......

Can you imagine even implying that a dress code is necessary for dining aboard a train? As much as I love to travel in Canada aboard VIA Rail, many a trip between Montreal and Halifax have witnessed near empty dining cars. They do as much as possible to attract the passengers, but ....... Add a dress code and you can well imagine the result. Now the Canadian is a far different matter on the Vancouver run. Those diners are chock full, but of course, that's all part of the pricing. The "new" Ocean, as I understand it, will also incorporate at least one meal into the pricing. Ah, but I digress. I got a kick out of that comment by the dining car Steward .... [swg]

Glad you like the NYNH&H (aka: New Haven), figured it would flick your switch. It does for me too. Just looking at the herald(s) does it for me ....... [tup]

Been looking for some relevant advertisements in my modest library, but thus far haven't hit on any. Hmmmmmmm.

Okay - in keeping with what I hope will be MY new schedule, I'm going to Post another Nostalgia piece, then see if we get any takers during the afternoon. I'll check back later on .......

Enjoy!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: WV
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Posted by coalminer3 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 8:05 AM
Good Morning All: Coffee, please; round for the house and more for the jukebox.

Geez - first B&M and now New Haven. Many thanks.

I rode virtually every one of those trains at one time or another. My Dad used to ride the Gilt Edge a lot when he had to travel to New York as it had a good arrival time. He also has fond memories of the Merchants when it had 14 parlors, 2 diners and no coaches! The New Haven, of course, was a big presence in Cranston, RI where he grew up. I remember him telling stories about standing on the Park Ave. bridge and about getting lifted off his feet by the exhaust of an I-5 passing beneath.

The NYNH&H tried its ***dest even up to the end. The Merchants was probably the flagship train, although some people would put in a vote for the Yankee Clipper. I remember being on the Merchants one time and going into the diner. The steward told me before I sat down, "Since the air conditioning is not functioning properly this evening, gentlmen are being permitted to remove their jackets and loosen their ties." Style, style, style.

They had two great slogans.

"Train Yourself to Relax"
and
"Avoid the Strain - Ride the Train."

Also, for those who are N scale modelers (as I am), our friends at Kato will be producing sets of f units and four sets of four cars each in Empire Builder colors. The date I heard their release is early next year.

For Tom and other hockeyites: Iron Horse Tavern - the beginning of many a dissipated evening for sure. BTW Bruins and Canadiens are on TV tonight from Montreal. It ain't the same as either the "Gahden" or broadcasts from the "Fabulous Forum" on Hockey Night In Canada. I remember seeing the following on a PCC car at Park St. in Boston one time, "Jesus Saves." Underneath it somebody had written "And Esposito scores on the rebound."

work safe

Note to Theodorebear - what are you looking for re Boston and Maine? Maybe I can help.
  • Member since
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  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:22 AM
As requested by BudKarr BK, here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:

New York, New Haven & Hartford (NYNH&H) (NH)

Headquarters: New Haven, CT

Mileage in 1950: 1,800

Locomotives in 1963:

Diesel: 381 – Electric: 22

Rolling stock in 1963:

Freight cars: 6,925 – Passenger cars: 1,055 (including self-propelled)

Principal routes in 1950:

New York City (Grand Central)-New Haven-New London, CT-Providence, RI-Boston, MA
New York City (Pennsylvania Station)-New Rochelle, NY
New Haven-Hartford, CT-Springfield, MA
New Haven-Middletown-Putnam, CT-Boston (Readville)
New Haven-Northhampton & Holyoke, MA
Devon-Winsted, CT
Waterbury-Hartford-Plainfield, CT-Providence
Providence (Valley Falls)-Worcester, MA
Norwalk, CT-Pittsfield & Station Line, MA
Derby, CT-Campbell Hall & Beacon, NY
New London-Worcester
New Bedford & Fall River-Framingham-Lowell & Fitchburg, MA
Boston-Brocton-Provincetown & Hyannis & Woods Hole, MA
Attleboro-Taunton-Middleboro, MA
South Braintree-Plymouth, MA

Passenger trains of note:

NEW YORK-BOSTON
Bay State – Bostonian - Commander – Forty Second Street – Gilt Edge –
Hell Gate Express – Merchants Limited – Murray Hill – Narragansett –
New Yorker – Owl – Puritan – Roger Williams – Shoreliner – Yankee Clipper


BOSTON-PHILADELPHIA-WASHINGTON
(operated by PRR west of NYC (Penn Station)
Colonial – Federal – Patriot – Pilgrim – Quaker – Senator – William Penn

OTHER RUNS
Bankers (New York-Springfield)
Berkshires (New York-Pittsfield)
Connecticut Yankee (New York-Springfield)
Day Cape Codder (New York-Hyannis & Woods Hole
Day White Mountain (New York-Berlin, NH; operated by B&M north of Springfield)
Montrealer (New York-to-Montreal, operated by B&M, CV & CN north of Springfield)
Nathan Hale (New York-Springfield)
Naugatuck (New York-Winsted)
Night Cap (New York-Stamford, CT
State of Maine (New York-Portland, ME via Providence & Worcester; B&M beyond
Washingtonian (Montreal-to-Washington counterpart to Montrealer


Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:21 AM
Mornin' Gents!

I see that I have a couple of Posts to address, before getting to this day's installment of the Fallen Flags. Grab a cuppa Joe and listen up!

Ted Given that we open up at 6 AM (all time zones!), you made it! [tup]. Hope this new regimine of yours keeps everything on an even keel. I've always tried to adhere to a "priority" in going about my daily chores. Works, most of the time. [swg]

Kevin Thanx for the insights regarding your ballooning adventure. Your mention of the "Mine Shaft" brings to mind a great place that used to be located several miles south of Kemper Arena in KCity, very close to the MO/KS state line. I think in those days it may have been the only one, but today I believe there is a chain of 'em. The one in the KCIty iarea s long gone. Saw one in Dallas duirng my visit to see *** and the TRE RDC's, but couldn't convince him to stop. Anyway, just wonderin' if the one you were hunting down is part of that chain. Haven't been to one in decades - great places. [tup]

Appreciate your pix, but really would hope you'd bunch them up for our Sunday Photo Posting Day!. Why not [?] That's a feature we're trying to stick with and for the most part, it seems to be working. Give it a try! [tup]

The guys thank you for the round last night! [tup][tup]

Ted Try a search engine - Yahoo, Google, Dogpile - insert "B&M steam" and you'll get all kinds of URL's. Check this one out:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/steamtown/shs2c.htm

So, where's ROB[?][?][?]

Enjoy!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:06 AM
TUESDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

Good Morning Gents!

Coffee’s hot – bakery goods fresh and the <light> breakfasts are ready! What are you waitin’ for [?] [swg]

Info for the Day:

(1) repeat THE INDEX FEATURE WILL BE DISCONTINUED ON A DAILY BASIS. IT WILL BE RUN ON MONDAY’s ONLY.

(2) QUIZ WHAT WAS missing SATURDAY [?] ANSWER: No OKTOBERFEST Congratulations to BudKarr BK for figuring it out!![tup][tup][tup]

INDEX Monday’s only!

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 06:59:59 (139) Monday’s Info & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 07:21:05 (139) Fallen Flag B&M passenger ops

(3) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 07:59:04 (139)

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 08:13:45 (139) reply to nickinwestwales

(5) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 08:18:44 (139) ”on point” Post!

(6) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 08:31:25 (139) reply to coalminer3

(7) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 11:51:30 (139) Inclusive Post!

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 13:04:3 (139) Commentary

(9) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 14:05:56 (139) Nostalgia #9, GN ads

(10) BudKarr BK Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 15:48:11 (139) Informative Post!

(11) BudKarr BK Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 16:03:31 (139) QUIZ WINNAH!

(12) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 17:15:26 (139) reply to BK & QUIZ

(13) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 18:35:54 (139) Inclusive Post!

(14) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 20:16:42 (139) reply to nickinwestwales

(15) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 21:05:31 (139)

(16) Gunns Kevin Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 21:11:04 (139)

(17) siberianmo Tom Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 21:49:49 (139) reply to Theodorebear & Gunns

(18) Gunns Kevin Posted: 17 Oct 2005, 23:40:32 (139) Ballooning

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:44 AM
Top of the mornin' to the early folks. By rising before the Sun is up, I can get my obligatory salutations off before heading to the "work site." I'll snare one of those French Cream Horns and a cuppa Jose for now Tom. Listen to me, I'm affecting Spanish from Gunns pix. I probably should have said "cuppa" Josef? That Deutcher ballon is trully a sight for a thirsty man![:O] Really like the shots from same over the Albq. basin. Keep 'em comin' Kevin.[tup]

Yes Tom, I try to get my sceneking "chops" together but pulling off a convincing bluff and escarpment for a tunnel is proving to be a tough challenge. I'm literally "Up against Wall (you Red Neck Mother)" [Country Western tune, circa 1970's]. The garage space available is just too confined to create rough terrain convincingly. The open area for my car is sort of a "no man's land" which the mainline spans by viaduct on one end and deck girder on the other (removeable). I need my work bench area, so about 6 linear feet is "spoken for." So much R.R., so little space![V]

You know, there is precious little on the B & M steam era available or I'm looking in the wrong places. Can anyone suggest a URL for more than R.D.C. operations? Looking forward to the New Haven Fallen Flag when it arrives. I only rode the Line once from Bridgeport, CN to Grand Central. We marched a afternoon parade and had the rest of the day off. Me and a couple of my cronies took the train into N.Y. C. to hear Maynard Ferguson's big band at Lincoln Center. The ride back was on a coach with bolster problems: BONK, BONK, BONK. Wow, was I ready for the sack that night.

Okay, that's a wrap for the time being. See ya later on toward this evening I hope.[tup] Oh yes, some nights hereabouts can yield a "hard frost" but it is rare. Nothing more on the G gauge unti I see what Wilma is all about![tdn] Happy rails.
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: New Mexico <Red Chilli>
  • 259 posts
Posted by Gunns on Monday, October 17, 2005 11:40 PM
Evening All,
Coffee and a ham sandwich,
well for the Balloon Fiesta, I crewed again for a German team from Frankfurt. We picked them up on Sept the 28 and they flew out on Oct 10th. in that time we really were busy, up usally at 0400 and awake untill 2300. The weather this year was not as good as we would have liked, with the "Box" absent most days. ( the Albuqurque Box os a wind pattern where the wind blows north at one altitude and south an other, allowing long duration flights in a small area) We layed out the balloon allmost every day, but were able to fly only 3 of them. The Possman Ballon is a special shape, A Bembel or Jug, that advertises an apple wine (very tasty can I talk you in to stocking a flask or two?) It is 10 stories high (33 meters) and we didnt fly in high winds (over 6 knots) or when the wind would have pushed us in to areas where we wouldnt be able to land becuse of space limitations. All in all I flew twice, both flights lasting about an hour, and landing in the nextcounty.
here is the Balloon
http://www.railimages.com/gallery/kevinevans/afm?full=1
all went well and most of our time not at the Fest was spent looking for a "Cowboy Bar" ( the "Mine Shaft" in Madrid New Mexico) and watching the wild life, note, a Squriel is called an "Eich Hanchen" or "Oak Chicken"

A good time was had by all,
So ring the bell and set em up for the off topic, I'm buying
Gunns
http://www.nmslrhs.org/
  • Member since
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  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:49 PM
Before I turn the bar over to Leon the Night Man just wanted to acknowledge a couple of customers.

A surprise Monday night visit from Ted and an earlier one than mid-night from Kevin. Good to see you both! [tup]

Not trying to steal BK's thunder, I believe the Swedes can take full credit for the X2000 tilt train. Check out this URL: http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/X2000.htm
then go to "All about tilting trains."

The Brits did express interest in developing such a train, but as I understand it, X2000 is all Swede.

Sounds kinda odd to think of anywhere in Florida experiencing Fall. Just blows my mind for when I think of the Sunshine State, it's hot and humid. I know, I know - not always, but generally whenever I'm there! [swg]

Kevin We all have other things to do and lives to lead. Don't sweat the small stuff - any visit and contribution you send our way is very much appreciated! [tup]

Ted Glad you liked that "final" installment on the GN. Got lots of mileage out them all, eh [?] YOU began it! [swg]

I logged a couple of hours with the S Capades this afternoon attending to the tedium of landscaping. It isn't diffcult nor am I trying to over achieve. Just takes time to do it "right." As with you, when the layout is "YOURS" it just has to be done correctly.

Kevin We never did get a "report" from you regarding your ballooning adventures. All you told us was that you never drank so much beer! [swg]

Okay - I'm back to the ball game, gotta see if the Cards can take it back to St. Louis.

Nite! [zzz]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • From: New Mexico <Red Chilli>
  • 259 posts
Posted by Gunns on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:11 PM
Evening Tom,
Coffee (I'm off to work soon) sorry about being sporadic but Oct. has just about Killed me... But now the ABIF and the open house are over, I have more time...
Ted the shot was of the BNSF line north out of ABQ toward Raton pass, once we are opperational, it will be part of our "Layout" as we hope to be able to challange Raton and Glorietta passes on a regular basis, maby even haluing some BNSF freight...

Any way I need to jump out so as to get some photos uploaded to Railimages.com for my Museum report tonight.
Have fun
Gunns
http://www.nmslrhs.org/
  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:05 PM
This is a late post for me. Tom, I'll take up that offer from Nick for a Crown and soda this fine evening. Ah, the crisp cool evening air of Autumn has arrived. I can now shut off the A.C. earlier and back on later in the day, phew! I really appreciate fresh air with windows open wide. That's impossible here for 6 months of the year.[tdn]

Good to hear from BK as always. BTW, is the X-2000 "leaning train" the one that was retired early on from British rails? If so, an eccentric millionaire might still have custody of the original. As I recall, the man in question was a professional Artists and Repertory man, perhaps, with the B.B.C. Monty Python's Flying Circus were among his more famous Accounts. This person collects and restores prototypes as we would models. Nick or Pete should be more knowledegable on this.

The publicity poster information on the G.N. brought to mind many a dated promotional campaign the major Roads used in "those days." Strangely, I can't recall railroads ever exploiting radio or T.V. for "mass media" advertising. U.P. and Norfolk Southern today use mass media advertising more than anytime in the past. No doubt, in the 30's and 40's passenger service really didn't need much touting. There were few alternatives before W.W. II. Progress report on the HO side is that I've removed all the free standing structures, etc. so I could vacuum the areas that need attention. Next, comes a double check on wiring after several episodes of Minnie (my Cat) trying to help with her skills. Any "loose ends" are fair game for her tinkering.[:O] I need to add more backgrond buildings on the ciytscape side and elininate some ill chosen landscaping on the rural side. Last of my priorities is, after all is in order, will be to puchase expensive digital camera equipment and software for entertaining.

Okay Boris, DON'T ring the bell. It is after "last call" and we all need our 40 winks. G'night all, see you on the morrow.

  • Member since
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Posted by siberianmo on Monday, October 17, 2005 8:16 PM
Evenin’ Nick,

Appears that you and BK are runnin’ in tandem. Good deal, hope he’s able to provide us with a story or two. I understand the difficulty, in that if one traveled by rail, but really never absorbed the ambiance of it all, well then it was just transportation. A chance meeting with a lovely or two, of course might tend to “lock” it in memory. Otherwise, just a train trip.

Appreciate the round – no point ringing the bell tonight – it’s just us! [yeah] I can appreciate having a bar with the overall type of clientele we have, but fortunately we have the advantage of being in the Ether – can pretty much make it to our specifications as required.

The track planning may be a bit more cumbersome than at first glance. Kinda like that “logo” thing I wanted to develop early on. Recall those [?] No one ever really provided anything, then it occurred to me that it probably was easier said than done. The Can-Am track plan will have to be put on graph paper, then placed into some sort of “image” for transmission to you. I’ll look into it. I do have an S Capades plan that was professionally done from the people who sold me the track. However, I altered it a bit and have no clue regarding the software they used or how to go about modifying what they sent (if it is modifiable at all). I can forward the plan they sent so that you can have a look. Thanx! You don’t owe me a thing, my man, your friendship is payment enough! [tup]

Those comments BK made regarding our Rendezvous in Toronto brings to mind that we need to get something solidified before year’s end. Those committed deserve to take advantage of whatever price they can get with the airlines. Waiting only makes it more uncertain, methinks. An Email will be sent within the week.

I think the bar will do fine IF we can depend on certain guys Posting at certain times. Once a routine like that gets established, I can work around the long periods of drought with my submissions, thereby keeping us on top. So no need to do any more than you have been doing.

Okay, back to my baseball game – ain’t lookin’ good for my guys.

Tom[4:-)][oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • 901 posts
Posted by nickinwestwales on Monday, October 17, 2005 6:35 PM
Evenin` gentlemen all-I think BK may have it-I did notice I was the only one in the bar dressed in Lederhosen,but thought nothing of it at the time-having people pointing at me and laughing is pretty much situation normal around here,so X2000-challenge accepted-if I can find it by sunday,the drinks are on you,if not I`m in the chair [^]-glad you enjoyed pix,sorry about quality of resolution-scanned in from magazine pages,so finite number of pixels to work with-Heavens to Betsy,forgetting my manners here-[4:-)]TOM-a round for those of us that remain,a Staropramen for myself,an Alexander Keiths for yourself and a slap round the head for Boris ( It doesn`t do to let him become complacent about his place in the scheme of things ....) so BK -throw us some tales-PETE or myself may well be able to illustrate them for you-indeed,happy to do so.....MANAGER TED-yup thats ugly-and genuine-sorry to hear that you`re going "part-time"-your layouts gain is our loss,look forward to progress reports-seems I must shoulder the burden of irreverant postings alone,so be it-cometh the hour,cometh the man & all that...........CM3 -now then -Kentucky Headhunters-with a name like that I`m halfway sold already-do they have anything on "the net",would love to have a little taster...must be quiet tonight-just bought a round and got change from a ten-spot-[4:-)]TOM-give `em a short as well-can`t be doing with pockets full of shrapnel-spoils the cut of the trousering ( as you know from sunday pix ,Am considered something of a natty dresser in these parts.........) as to attendance-I could take you to half a dozen bars round these parts that would be delighted to have the sort of trade we have here,quality ales,food and conversation-what more could a chap ask for..?-Yup,we got "the Ladies" as well,bless their hearts-plus you`ve more chance of getting rid of that tattoo than you have of shaking me off[swg]-P.S.-Will check out Hornby track planning software and report back-(father-in-law has a copy) may be able to work some conversion,track plan geometry one of my few strong points-presume no. of elements used less important than overall dimensions & configuration -can always refer to pix-presume board is 8x4 for `s`capades-will need dimensions and a few specifics for Can-Am,plus shots of the "dark side" not featured in photo album-draw it out on A4 sheet,scan & send-about time I did something for you..enough now,seeing double,sleep well one and all,regards,nick[C=:-)]

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