"OUR" PLACE - SEE NEW THREAD!

[passengerfan]

Good Afdternoon Tom and the rest of the gang. Time for a CR and a round for the house.
Forgot to mention that the CITY OF MIAMI operated as trains 52-53.

PASSENGERFAN AL'S STREAMLINER CORNER #11

SOUTH WIND trains 33-15/32-16 operated by the Pennsylvania Railroad, Louisville & Nashville, Atlantic Coast Line and Florida East Coast between Chicago and Miami every third day seven car coach streamliner built by Budd operating the longest of the three coach streamliner routes at 1,559 miles in 29 hours 30 minutes each way.

The PRR SOUTH WIND became the third of the Chicago - Miami seven car coach streamliners when it was inaugurated from Chicago on December 19, 1940. No one would realize at first glance that the SOUTRH WIND was a stainless steel streamliner complete with fluted sides as the PRR at that time painted everyting in the roads Tuscan Red with Yellow lettering.

For Power the PRR assigned different semi-streamlined 4-6-2 Pacifics between Chicago and Louisville. From Louisville to Montgomery, Alabama the L&N assigned streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific locomotive and tender 295 specially streamlined for this specific train.
Between Montgomery and Jacksonville the ACL assigned whatever Pacif or Mountain that was available this was the only non-streamlined power assigned to the SOUTH WIND.
Between Jacksonville and Miami the FEC assigned the 1001 an EMC E3A for the rest of the trip.

The FEC part of the route was the only part duplicated by all three seven car coach streamliners. The route of the SOUTH WIND was 1,559 miles and the trains averaged 53 miles per hour including fifteen stops and four engine changes.

CONSIST OF SOUTH WIND

1120 (PRR) Streamlined K-4s 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Chicago - Louisville)

295 (L&N) Streamlined K-7s 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Louisville - Montgomery)

(ACL) Non Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Montgomery - Jacksonville)

1001 (FEC) EMC E3A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

6700 Baggage 16-Crew Dormitory 18-Revenue Seat Coach

4022 60-Revenue Seat Coach

4023 60- Revenue Seat Coach

4518 48-Seat Dining Car

4020 60-Revenue Seat Coach

4021 60-Revenue Seat Coach

1126 Kitchen 16-Seat Dinette 35-Seat Lounge Observation

TTFN AL

[siberianmo]

G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #30

Here’s something to ponder with regard to our appreciation and fascination with
Classic Trains. Check out this advertisement regarding the Canadian Pacific from 1950:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . Let yourself go! . . . . . . . . . .
See big beautiful CANADA in armchair ease

Salty vacation? It’s at The Algonquin, St. Andrews-by-the-Sea, New Brunswick . . . . 2 seaside golf courses, swimming, sailing. Or across Bay of Fundy waits The Digby Pines, at Digby, Nova Scotia – heaps of family fun! Either place, you’re in the good carte of Canadian Pacific.

Like “another world” city? See friendly Old Québec. Ride in a Calèche. Shop winding streets. Visit Ste. Anne de Beaupré or isle d'Orléans! Relax gaily in luxury at Canadian Pacific’s great Château Frontenac!

All the talk’s about Canada – land of vacations unlimited! See it from the Atlantic to the Pacific – by Canadian Pacific train with picture-window views. Enjoy real hospitality at fine Canadian Pacific hotels.

See the skyscraper Canadian Rockies – by Canadian Pacific, Diesel train. Stop over at Banff and Lake Louise, the area for breeze-swept Victoria, British Columbia – stay at the famous Empress Hotel. Revel in the roses. Go sightseeing, shopping. Sporty golf courses . . . swim in Crystal Garden, world’s largest enclosed sea pool. Enjoy climate like springtime all year ‘round.

Ask your own agent about fast Empress airliners to the Far East, New Zealand and Australia . . . cruise by “Princess” to Alaska . . . sail to Europe in White Empress style.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Canadian Pacific . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . Canada is news! See it by Canadian Pacific. . . . . . . . . . .


Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

CHECK THE MONDAY SUMMARY and INDEX PAGES FOR MORE GREAT NOSTALGIA POSTS!

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone and Happy Thanksgiving to all in the US. I'll take a steaming cup of hot tea so I won't be having stomach convulsions before putting on the feed bag. Just the wife and I today so I plan on being here for the late serving, and in the meantime, celebrate with my friends here at OUR PLACE.
Barndad, congrats on the order of the stools. How goes the bidding on the CW book? If that doesn't work out, the Midland's gift shop had a copy the last time I looked.
Tom, the Midland gets several copies of the Pocket List about 4 times a year addressed to the various officials. Although one has never been officially addressed to me, I get one from a noshow. I don't know if the rr has to belong to this organization to receive them or not.
Theodorebear, always appreciate the CW info. A great book for those interested in the B&Os part in the war, should find a book called The Baltimore and Ohio in the Civil War by, IIRC, Festus Summers. This important line saw more action and received more damage than probably any other rr. Although I do not have this book, I have seen it and it is full of info. I can't remember if it describes how the Confederates stole several locos from the B&O and transported them over dirt roads to the South, however.
Passengerfan, congrats on passing the exam and getting your license. Perhaps now we will see more of you around here.
Russell, thanks on asking about my health. It's a matter of finding an MD who knows what they're doing. I have been having bronchitis and started back on some meds that I was taken off of earlier this year so hopefully I will be completely back to normal. The Midland still has a Santa train scheduled for Nov. 26 and another on Dec. 3. I have been chosen as conductor on the latter. Gives me a chance to wear the entire conductor's uniform from the BN that I bought a couple years ago. It's entirely too heavy and HOT to wear during the summer on our non AC equipped cars. I am going to try to watch Polar Express again to study Tom Hanks as conductor.
NSengineer-nothing like watching 2 silver rails unfold in front on you. Hope you can have your Thanksgiving upon your arrival home, regardless of the date. Be safe out there.
Happy Thanksgiving to all and don't eat too much. Later, Dan.

[Anonymous]

Good morning Tom and all my good friends. I'll have a light breakfast prior to our family dinner at 1pm. Man, it's cold and windy here! We had a new horse introduced into our paddock this morning, and didn't have much fun standing outside to watch the new herd dynamics being tested. We finally had the sense to bring the car up so we could observe in comfort!
Loved your Streamliner Corner #10 Al. And Ted, you are most correct about my current article showing the "gritty side" of railroad life. You might want to finish your meal before reading the final installment of part IV, which is as follows:

Through Thick and Thin by Bland Osborn – From Vintage Rail magazine Sep/Oct 1998

The bunk cars had no running water. There was a sink which drained out onto the ground, but you had to carry the water in a bucket from the water car and heat it on the coal stove if you weren’t satisfied with cold, or the cook might give you enough from shaving from a pot he kept simmering on the back of his range. Our water was kept in a tank car that Jim sent to the nearest division point once every 60 days or so, where it was filled from a fire hydrant or whatever. We never could drink the stuff for a couple of days after a move; it took that long for all the junk to settle to the bottom of the car. Later, when I got my own outfit, one of the periodic rainy-day jobs was to drain the water car and put a couple of guys down in it to shovel the muck into baskets, which we would then hoist out. For almost five years, I drank out of pails, dippers, engine tenders, wooden barrels, muddy tank cars, and anything else that had water in it – and never had a problem. Now, being in my seventies, I may get diarrhea drinking from the tap at the house next door!

Be that as it may, we did have a shower car. One end of this car was used to store our supply of coal. In the other end (along with the one-lung, 1,500-watt generator set that provided power for each car’s one 60-watt and two 40-watt bulbs) was a small gasoline engine-driven water pump hooked to the water car. There were also two shower stalls, and between the water pump and these stalls was a potbellied stove with two holes knocked out of it. These holes allowed the installation of a coil of steel tubing inside the stove. There was also an accumulation tank for “hot” water. So if you built a fire in the stove, and managed to get the pump started, after a while you could get a hot shower of sorts.

“On Wednesdays and on Saturdays, but mostly on the latter days” (with apologies to A.A. Milne) the women helped by firing up this equipment before we got back to camp. So we always (almost always) got sort of clean twice a week. I say “sort of clean,” because running two gasoline engines and shoveling coal in the bathroom ain’t exactly right out of House Beautiful magazine! In snow or rain it wasn’t much fun getting back and forth between cars, either. Let’s just say it beat the hell out of the toilet arrangements.

Those arrangements are easy to describe. There weren’t any. None. Nada. Zilch. Here was an outfit that had five wives in addition to the men, but if someone wanted to go – well, Jim didn’t consider it was his business. In this one respect we lived on a par with the coyotes, rabbits, and other denizens of the lone prairie. Later, on my outfit, we had a one-holer that was the first thing unloaded and installed when we made camp and the last thing removed when we left. In years past the bridge the bridge gang had also had one, but they moved in a hurry and left it behind. So whenever Jim parked the outfit, we all hoped it would be near a town, and the sanitary facilities at the station were always the first thing I checked out on a move.

By the way, if you are ever caught in a similar situation, it might be of value to know that Gene’s wife, Helen, told me that in very early editions Emily Post said: “In open country – 400 feet; somewhat less for Number 1.

Now for the story, which is out of chronological sequence but fits well here. We were parked in the big middle of nowhere a few miles outside Fort Worth, Texas, on a very high and steep fill made of slag and cinders. The fill dropped off right from the back side of the bunk cars for 50 feet or so down to a creek. We had put in a miserable week, working in a cold rain most of the time, and on the night under discussion it was coming down pretty hard and was colder than a witch’s you know what. Bunking in the car with us was a pair of big, rough, young laborers that Jim had hired for the week at the local pool hall (that’s the way it was done back then) to help with some heavy lifts.

So here’s the picture. It’s about 9 p.m. Fred and Sherman are drinking whiskey and playing a desultory game of nickel-dime stud. I am tipped back in a chair reading. One of the laborers is on his cot, and the other emerges from Sherman’s end of the car. Got it?

This guy goes to the coal bin, gets the scoop-shovel, puts it down in the middle of the floor just a few feet from the table, and takes down his pants. “What the hell do you think you’re gonna’ do?” says Sherman. “I’m gonna’ *** in this shovel and throw it out the door,” says the guy, now squatting over the shovel. “Oh, well, in that case, Young’un,” says Fred, “open the back door.” I did as I was told.

Without any word or sign I could see, Fred and Sherman pounced on the offender. Each got him on one side by the pants at his knee and under his armpit. “On the count of one,” said Fred, and on the count of one they threw that guy as far as they could, tail end first, out into the night. “Shut the *** door, Young’un,” said Sherman, “you’re lettin’ the rain in.” I shut it, went back, sat down, and held my breath for what seemed like a quarter of an hour, while I feigned nonchalance and flipped the pages of my book without seeing them. The car was, as I said, built with the floor over four feet off the ground, and with that steep drop-off and what I could glimpse of his trajectory as he left, that fellow had to have fallen at least 15 feet into the cinders, with a straight slide from there to the creek.

Fred and Sherman played silently on, apparently unconcerned. I was positive we had just killed a man. After an eternity, and to my intense relief, I felt the car tremble. The door opened about three inches. Nobody moved. After a few more seconds the door swung wider and the guy, absolutely soaking wet, slipped quietly in and headed towards his end of the car. As he passed the table, Sherman, without lifting his head, said, “Throw your clothes out and we’ll hang ‘em by the stove.” He did, Sherman hung them up, and nothing more was ever said.

And I’ll bet my sons still believe I was rough when I tried to teach them a few of the things you just don’t ever do in polite society! End of article*

I'd like to wish all my friends here a warm and wonderful Thanksgiving.
Have a terrific day! Seeyas !!

[passengerfan]

Good Morning Tom and the rest of the gang. And happy turkey day to everyone on this side of the border. Just Time for a cofee and a diet pastry from the Mentor Bakery.

PASSENGERFAN AL'S STREAMLINER CORNER #10

CITY OF MIAMI operated by the Illinois Central, Central of Georgia, Atlantic Coast Line and Florida East Coast. Inaugurated December 18, 1940 from Chicago to Miami every third day 1,493 miles in 29 hours 30 minutes.

The Illinois Central inaugurated their seven car Pullman Standard built coach streamliner on December 18, 1940 from Chicago.
The CITY OF MIAMI was powered by a single EMD E6A 2,000 HP diesel passenger cab unit numbered 4000. The entire train was painted in a never repeated paint scheme of Orange and Palm Green with Scarlet stripes and lettering. Up to and including this train the IC seemed to have difficulty deciding on a paint scheme for their streamlined trains. The GREEN DIAMOND, ILLINI, MISS LOU, and CITY OF MIAMI were each painted in different paint schemes.

The route of the new CITY OF MIAMI took it south from Chicago to Miami by way of Champaign, Centralia, Fulton, Jackson, Birmingham, Columbus, Waycross, and Jacksonville. The route between Chicago and Birmingham was over IC trackage, between Birmingham and Albany the tracks of the Central of Georgia were employed, between Albany and Jacksonville the train operated over the Atlantic Coast Line and finally between Jacksonville and Miami the Florida East Coast was the chosen route. Their was no engine train from Chicago to Miami the IC unit was the through power for the entire trip. The IC CITY OF MIAMI was the only one of the three coach streamliners between Chicago and Miami to be diesel powered for the entire run.

The 1,493 mile route of the CITY OF MIAMI was operated with 25 stops in route and the diesel maintained a 50 mph average for the trip.

The CITY OF MIAMI was the only one of the three Chicago - Miami coach streamliners to have its consist built by Pullman Standard.

CONSIST ILLINOIS CENTRAL CITY OF MIAMI.

4000 EMD E6A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1900 BOUGAINVILLEA Baggage 13 Crew Dormitory 22-Revenue Seat Coach

2600 CAMELLIA 52-Revenue Seat Coach with Nurses Room

2601 JAPONICA 60-Revenue Seat Coach

4100 PALM GARDEN 48-Seat Dining Car

2602 HIBISCUS 60-Revenue Seat Coach

2603 POINSETTIA 60-Revenue Seat Coach

3300 BAMBOO GROVE 32-Seat Tavern Lounge Bar 22-Seat Lounge Observation

By the 1951-52 winter season the the CITY OF MIAMI had changed from an all coach streamliner to a full service streamliner with Coaches, Sleeping cars, Lounge and Dining cars. Not only had the CITY OF MIAMI grown from seven cars but also served both St. Louis and Chicago with through cars. Not only that their were also two consists operating in CITY OF MIAMI service providing every other day service. The IC trains were all painted by that time in the Chocolate, Orange and Yellow paint scheme. The St. Louis cars were added and eleeted at Carbondale, Illinois to the main section of the CITY OF MIAMI trains.

CONSIST ONE

4018 EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

4104 EMD E8B 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

4019 EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1900 Baggage 21-Crew Dormitory Car

BLUE GRASS STATE 6-Section 6-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Chicago - Jacksonville)

MAGNOLIA STATE 6-Section 6-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CLIFTON 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CARBONDALE 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CHAMPAIGN 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CALVERT 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(St. Louis - Miami)

GENERAL BEAUREGARD 3-Double Bedroom 1-Compartment 1-Drawing Room Bar 19-Seat Lounge Car

4100 PALM GARDEN 48-Seat Dining Car

2600 CAMELLIA 52-Revenue Seat Coach with Nurses Room

2601 JAPONICA 60-Revenue Seat Coach

247 (ACL) 54-Revenue Seat Coach

2640 56-Revenue Seat Coach

SEBASTIAN 56-Revenue Seat Coach
(St. Louis - Miami)

3300 BAMBOO GROVE 32-Seat Tavern Lounge Bar 22-Seat Lounge Observation

CONSIST TWO

4020 EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

4105 EMD E8B 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

4021 EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

1906 Baggage 21-Crew Dormitory Car

VOLUNTEER STATE 6-Section 6-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Jacksonville - Chicago)

PRAIRIE STATE 6-Section 6-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CAIRO 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CENTRALIA 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

COVINGTON 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

CHEBANSE 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Miami - St. Louis)

GENERAL JACKSON 3-Double Bedroom 1-Compartment 1-Drawing Room Bar 19-Seat Lounge Car

4101 EVANGELINE 48-Seat Dining Car

672 (CofG) 52-Revenue Seat Coach

2602 HIBISCUS 60-Revenue Seat Coach

248 (ACL) 54-Revenue Seat Coach

2603 POINSETTIA 60-Revenue Seat Coach

LANTANA (FEC) 56-Revenue Seat Coach
(Miami - St. Louis)

3308 32-Seat Tavern Lounge Bar 22-Seat Lounge Observation

All ACL, FEC and CofG cars operated in the CITy OF MIAMI were painted in the IC Chocolate, Orange and Yellow scheme to match the rest of the trains. Beginning in the winters of 1957 the IC leased NP Dome sleepers with one each assigned to the CITY OF MIAMI consists. These cars were painted to match the IC cars and received a fresh coat of NP paint before being returned to NORTH COAST LIMITED service each spring.

TTFN AL

[nickinwestwales]

Howdy folks,just stopped by to check on the preparations ( and enjoy the rare pleasure of watching someone else struggle with the stove ).
Well the ladies appear to have everything in hand out there,Cindy has polished the bar counter to a mirror like finish,Leon is busy stacking crates of extra beer ready to hand,Boris is absorbed in sticking feathers,glitter and various shiny stuff to Tex ( who looks like a sort of mobile cargo-cult offering ) and the sound of gentle snoring is drifting down from the landlords quarters.......
Yup,all is well in the world and I would say we are green to go[^][tup]
Right,more likely to be in for the 6 pm sitting ( snow permitting ) so will see you all then

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ONE AND ALL !!!!!
enjoy the day,nick[C=:-)]-off-duty[^]

[siberianmo]

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Good Morning this fine day!

Here in mid-continent USA we have blue skies, a bit of chill with a breeze from the north and temps expected to be in the mid-30s (F). Petrol up at "Collusion Corner" was $1.89 (rounded) last time I checked .... Turkey goes in at 11:30 AM, we feast 'round here in mid-day. Probably catch some football on the "tube," although we've kinda gotten away from that over the years. I have a bit of a problem with these bizillionaires, attitudes, et al. Just as soon put on some CDs with seasonal music and begin decorating the inside of our home.

Hope y'all have a wonderful day, I know we plan to!

Thanx Theodorebear Ted and ftwNSengineeer (no first name?) for the Posts. Work or play, stay safe today ...... [tup]

Later! [swg]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

Happy Thanksgiving to all who observe the occasion on this day and, come to think of it, all of those who don't.[^] Tom, I know you will be in and out today, so grab a round "catch as catch can" on me. Hey, anything on the CPR is always a welcome "good read."[tup]

Just putting the finishing touches to the egg nog. That is my contribution to a planned menu where everyone brings his or her assingned dish. We are a group of kindred souls who through distance or circumstances are away from families and old friends. It works very well, since we take turns on which will be the "host home" through the successive years.[tup]

Bardad Doug, really enjoying your entries on the "nitty gritty" side of railroading. So often we get lost in the finery and oppulance of rail travel that the logistics and "human element" are ignored entirely. Gandy Dancer's were a tough lot who "paid their dues" in keeping these fine trains "up and running." The motor car tale is one of thousands that should be told to remind us that R.R. workers lead a rugged yet fulfilling life.[tup] ftwNSengineer, its a shame you must work on Thanksgiving but I'll bet there are a dozen or more here that would like to join you any day of the year.[^]

Like most of you folks, I too am committed to the social priorities of the day and must get to the business of sharing and caring. Please everyone, you have a care while you are "out and about." We want to see you back for a synopsis of your holiday in person, not by proxy, okay?[:D] See you soon, Happy Thanksgiving.

[red p]

well while everyone is having turkey and watching football, I will be stuck on a train again

and in case anybody is interested, here is the veiw from my office window

[siberianmo]

THURSDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

We open at 6 AM (all time zones, don’t ask how we do that!



[dinner] Dinner is served at 4 and 6 PM! Hilda ‘n Helga will prepare the meal, while their “relatives” will “work” the tables! [swg] <hoooooboy!>



We fully understand that today is a FAMILY day and for those who cannot make it in – enjoy your holiday and this special break from the work week! Others may be traveling the highways, airways and rail systems – so to you, safe journeys and hope to see y’all on Monday!

We thank Rob in advance for attending to the [dinner] dinner arrangements for this day! I too expect to be away for most of it.

Also, special recognition goes out to all of you who have taken the time to make timely Posts and provide us all with such interesting topics to reflect and respond to. Just check the SUMMARIES and the names of those who are responsible for this resurgence of activity are plainly evident! [tup][tup][tup]

Info for the Day:

(1) Friday is “Steak ‘n Fries Nite!”
(2) Saturday is “ENCORE! Day,” where we repeat some memorable Posts.
(3) Sunday we are CLOSED and it’s Sunday Photo Posting Day!

SUMMARY

Name …..…………… Date/Time …..…..………. (Page#) .. Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 00:56:20 (171) Wednesday’s Info & Summary

(2) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 03:38:12 (171)

(3) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 05:26:15 (171) Inclusive Post!

(4) passengerfan Al Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 07:26:52 (171) Streamliner #8 – Twin Star Rocket

(5) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 08:02:31 (171) Order of the Stools

(6) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 08:09:38 (171) Good Morning!

(7) jdonald Don Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 08:37:11 (171)

(8) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 11:15:33 (171) Inclusive Post!

(9) Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 12:26:27 (171) Congrats & Inclusive Post!

(10) wanswheel Mike Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 12:31:45 (171) Inclusive Post, etc.

(11) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 12:40:31 (171)

(12) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 12:41:55 (171) NOSTALIGA #29 – Ad – CP (1956)

(13) Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 15:36:18 (171) The Stephenson’s, etc.

(14) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 16:03:05 (171) Acknowledgments, etc.

(15) passengerfan Al Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 16:26:59 (171)

(16) nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 19:38:28 (171) Inclusive Post, etc.

(17) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 20:07:02 (171) Inclusive Post, etc.

(18) passengerfan Al Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 20:46:57 (171) Streamliner #9 – Dixie Flagler

(19) barndad Doug Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 20:52:38 (171) Through Thick & Thin, Part I, etc.

(20) barndad Doug Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 21:43:43 (171) Through Thick & Thin, Part II

(21) siberianmo Tom Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 21:49:37 (172) Acknowledgments,etc.

(22) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 22:52:20 (172) Inclusive Post, etc.

(23) barndad Doug Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 23:01:28 (172) Through Thick & Thin, Part III

(24) siberianmo Tom Posted: 24 Oct 2005, 00:22:55 (172) Acknowledgments, etc.

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[siberianmo]

Yo Guyz!

Okay Rob you probably need to recheck page 169 - that's NOT what it sez! You are messin' wid me mind! [swg] You'll pay for this little deed, my friend! [}:)][:-,]

Okay, Part Deux - that wasn't a "rerun" on the CPR! First time "release" and you saw it here! [swg] NOSTALGIA #29 was prepared for y'all on Tuesday ..... <geesh>

Nope - upstairs is OUTTATHEQUESTION ... those are private quarters, a staff "lounge" and "special events" circular room! For now, we'll issue ear protectors for those wishin' to read in the Rat's Patoot Room and Temporary Reading Room. [swg]

Doug You have justified a Reading Room! [tup] Hey - take the day "off" - it's THANKSGIVING DAY! [swg]

Okay, Gents - last call - Boris ring it!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

Hi Tom and Rob. No drink for me, as I need to get to bed, put feel free to put another round on my revolving tab. Glad you seem to like my "little" article! Here's part III. I think I can wrap this up tomorrow!

Through Thick and Thin by Bland Osborn – From Vintage Rail magazine Sep/Oct 1998


After that job was completed, the outfit moved to Carlsbad, New Mexico, to reconstruct a long, low trestle across a dry wash. The move itself was exciting and took several days. A majority of the 20 or so cars that made up the outfit were pretty old, so unless there was an emergency, we were usually moved by the lowly local. During the move many of us went to bed with a bottle, but John, the only member of the gang my age, had a .22 automatic rifle, and we spent a lot of the trip on top of his bunk car shooting at anything that moved and many things that didn’t. The most fun were the rabbits that the engine would scare up ahead of the right-of-way, but anything would do. Actually, I don’t remember hitting anything live from a moving train with a rifle or handgun (a shotgun was a different story), but we had a lot of fun and scared the daylights out of a bunch of bunnies. On my very first payday, I went to Sears in Carlsbad and bought the Marlin 39A lever-action that still hangs on my gun rack. Then John and I really burned up the ammunition!

One of the funniest things I have ever seen happened on the Carlsbad job, but you will have to absorb a little more background to understand the circumstances. We always traveled from the outfit to the job on a motorcar. Our big motorcar was perhaps nine feet long, had four steel wheels and 18 inches in diameter, and was propelled by a hand-cranked four-cylinder engine through a regular three-speed automotive transmission and clutch. Just like driving a car with a hand throttle, except you didn’t have to steer.

Lawrence drove the motorcar. He was 60, quite heavy, and our “engineer,” meaning he drove, and he checked the fuel, oil, and water in the welding machines and air compressor and started them every morning and shut them down every evening. Although he was a genial old soul, Lawrence had the habit, which grated upon my sensibilities, of shoving the throttle wide open before starting any engine, and the motorcar engine would howl like a banshee whenever he cranked it up.

The bridge we were reconstructing near Carlsbad was a single-track trestle, with ties only eight feet long across the top of longitudinal steel beams, forming an :open deck” bridge. Because it was only six or seven feet above the dry wash, it had no hand rails, and the ties were spaced about nine or ten inches apart – a perfect distance to allow your foot, followed by your leg, to go through, if you didn’t watch your step. The trestle was perhaps 400 feet long, and at each end there was a little platform off to one side called a “motorcar setoff.”

On the morning in question, about a dozen of us squeezed onto the motorcar and its trailer-like “push car” and took off for the bridge, which was eight or nine miles to the south. We crossed it, set the cars off, and prepared to go to work, but found we had forgotten the welding rod. So we put the motorcar back on the track facing toward town, and Lawrence went around to the front to crank her, having first slapped the throttle wide open. But he had made a big mistake. He had left the car in high gear. Lawrence gave the crank a mighty twist, and the hot little engine responded instantly, howling and spinning that car’s wheels frantically. Even though the car weighed half a ton or so, with no real load on the wheels, they had very little traction, particularly once they started spinning. But they had enough to start the car towards Lawrence, who naturally backed away. He soon saw that backing was not going to do the trick and turned to run. But by the time he was on the trestle: There was no side clearance, and therefore only one way to go – 400 feet to the other end! Adrenaline obviously pumping madly, Lawrence was off like the wind, taking enormous bounds and somehow managing to land on the ties and not between them. Just one miss and he could well be, all kidding aside, a dead man.

Every one of us yelled encouragement; “Run, Lawrence, run – run you SOB, run!” but it soon became obvious that running was not going to work, because the motorcar continued to gain traction and to accelerate; so we cupped out hands and screamed “Jump, Lawrence, jump – jump you SOB, jump!” The car had a “bumper” made of steel pipe, and I honestly believe that it was not until Lawrence felt it nip at his heel that he launched himself into space, at full speed, off the side of the bridge, where he disappeared with a scream and a puff of riverside sand. John, Gene, and Sherman lay on the ground in helpless laughter, but Fred and Chet, the assistant foreman, were of sterner stuff and hurried down to Lawrence’s aid. Jim pensively watched the driverless car, now getting up to its top speed of 70 miles an hour, disappearing toward Carlsbad – and then he gave me my first responsible task. “Young’un,” he said, “see how quick you can get Carlsbad on that device of yours.”

For I had found, in the back of a locker in the tool car, an old wooden box that contained a telephone with a wire magneto ringer, plus a collapsible rod that would extend for perhaps 15 feet and had two spring-loaded arms with special clips for snapping over telephone wires. I had bought a lantern cell for it with my own money, and for several days, while we were held up by train traffic, I had hooked it to various pairs of the many wires that telephone poles carried alongside the track, just as they did on every railroad right-of-way in America before the days of microwave towers and satellites. I had been trying to identify the pair we could use to communicate with the Carlsbad stationmaster about train movements that were holding up our work, and at noon the previous day I had finally succeeded.

It took me about 5 minutes to assemble the gear and raise Carlsbad, and, after Jim explained the situation as rapidly as he could to the stationmaster, that worthy dropped his phone and tore down the track in our direction in an attempt to reach a switch which would divert the motorcar before it sped unannounced through the heart of town, collecting stray dogs, cars, and perhaps pedestrians on the way. He made it – sort of.

We learned later (after one of the extra-gang foremen came and got us with his motorcar) that the only switch the stationmaster had time to reach was the one at the south end for our outfit.

Our siding’s derail was down and locked, but it was close to the end of the outfit – and not designed for motorcars traveling 70 mph. As fate would have it, that end car was the cook car, and the cook and his wife had just finished cleaning up the dishes and were settling down to a nice cup of coffee when Lawrence’s pride and joy hit the derail. It lept into the air and made a totally unauthorized entry through the end of the car! It really didn’t get very far in, but it hung, before God ad everybody, right across from the station platform.

Wrecking a motorcar could be a firing offense, but we were a “System” outfit and took orders only from Chicago. Jim must have spun them a pretty good tale (no one ever found out what – but very possibly just the unvarnished truth!), because a new motorcar came down from Clovis on the local the next day. He had a hell of a time with the cook’s wife, though, and finally moved the outfit to a longer siding where we chained a tie across the track in addition to the derail.

Oh – although Lawrence had been badly bruised, he wouldn’t admit to being hurt (though he crippled around for a week or more); and would you believe that for as long as I knew him, he STILL started engines with the throttle wide open? However, he did learn to carefully check the position of the motorcar’s gearshift lever before doing so.

[:I] One more part to go .... Tomorrow! [:I]

[trolleyboy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo

Good Evenin’ Gents!



Okay guyz, Boris the Night Man has arrived and I’m outta here! [swg] Ring it again Boris, give ‘em a round on me! [tup]

Sorry Tom but at the bottom of pg 169 you did leave Boris in charge "o" the bar[:0]I didn't think I had breathed in to many fumes but I went back to check just in case.

Thanks for the revisit ti the CPR passenger trains [tup] enjoyed them the second time round

I won't knock you for thinking of the all reds a gaudy personal preferance just like me not really liking E8's[:D][;)]One for each of us[^]

Nick yup the weather just starting to materialize should be maybe an inch inch in a half when alls said and done. Toronto is getting much worse ( darn lake )

mike loved the poem and a great picture and story about your grand dads loco and a notable part of career for sure. did he get to meet old Winston ?

As Nick already got to. Catenery is the poles or mast supports and the overhead hung wire on electrified railroad right of ways.

Doug Great article I've read half and will catch the rest tomorrow. Good stuff. Thanks for enjoying my steam bits as well.

Tom I'm not sure that the rats patoot room is a good choice as a reading room as well. To much noise and language for those venting their frustrations there. Maybe the room upstairs where the ladies of perpetual motion do their thing[:p][:D] Nope on secon dthought too many distractions there too[:p][;)] Maybe we just need to build a second dtory on the shed ?

Ted Glad you are enjoying the steamer tales as well. I think that you are right best the eating public don't no of Boris's plucking tecniques[:0][xx(] We'll keep the doors shut and helga will keep him on a short chain[:X][:I][B)][:0]


Happy thanks-giving to those south of the 49th. Catch you all tomorrow.

Rob

[siberianmo]

Evenin’ Guys!

Quite a crowd this Thanksgiving Eve …. Rather different for a Wednesday! [tup]

Some acknowledgments:

passengerfan Al Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 16:26:59 and 20:46:57

Good Grief – how many per day will it take to “tip the canoe”[?] Easy, man, easy does it. Nice stuff – fantastic info.. Surely you have received my Email …… Anyway, there’s so much in my “backlog” that I’m going to have to spend a few hours just reading through all of these great submissions.

Am I seeing a pattern here [?] Previously a CR – then a double CR – now a triple CR! [wow][swg]

Thanx for the rounds! [tup][tup]

nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 19:38:28

Twice in one day – now you’re perkin’ Mate! [swg]

[yeah] Always nice to spend a bit of time with the grandkids. These are my late son’s children – boy 8, girl 10. Tough for them at this time of year.

The E8’s really are out of place on the pike, but I “justify” that particular train and consist as my “Perpetual Commemorative Run” of “old” Via Rail. There’s simply no comparison to the rather geometric F40’s and the stylish E8’s. The latter simply are food for the eye. [tup]

Thanx for the drink! [tup]

Theodorebear Ted Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 20:07:02

Looking back over at least the past 6 weeks, we have experienced some fantastic flurries of inputs. Now the “phase” has us heavily into narratives along with data-filled features. I’d say there most probably isn’t another thread anywhere on the Forums with this quality and quantity of information. Good job, one and all! [tup][tup][tup]

It takes just about a year in order for everything to come together when the subject of a Rendezvous is concerned. The seed has been “planted.” [tup]

barndad Doug Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 20:52:38

Whoa! Et tu, Doug [?] So am I to now suppose that a “Doug’s Roundhouse” will become part of our Monday Index [?] Arghhhhhhhhhh, it just keeps coming and coming ……. Words, words, words. Nicely done! [tup][tup]

I think we’ll have to reconfigure the Rat’s Patoot Room into a Reading Room, for there’s no way to do justice to these fine submissions without having a suitable place to digest ‘em all.

[yeah] You have some friends ‘round here, Doug and I’m glad that they took the time to recognize your Reserved Stool induction! Bromo, eh [?] [swg]

Thanx for the round! Boris Ring it!

Okay, guys – I see Leon the Night Man has arrived. Time for me to make like a wishbone, and split! [swg]

Later![zzz]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[Anonymous]

Part II

Through Thick and Thin by Bland Osborn – From Vintage Rail magazine Sep/Oct 1998

As this narrative progresses, you may find that you are learning more about railroad life and equipment than you wanted to know. However, most of the descriptions, such as the ones of my bunk car layout here, will prove crucial to understanding the stories I will relate. In addition, I would like to leave posterity some small record of a lifestyle that was experienced by few men inclined to memorialize it in print and is, as surely as service “before the mast,” an experience totally of the past.

At 5:00 that first evening, I was introduced to one of the redeeming features of life on the bridge gang – the chow. The cook and his wife (they were contract personnel and changed often) were, next to Jim, the most influential people on the outfit. A majority of cooks worked hard, providing excellent meals under difficult conditions. While the discerning palate might have been occasionally offended, and while the ambiance (encompassing a single, long, oilcloth-covered table with benches on each side, located next to an enormous coal-fired range in a sun-baked modified boxcar) might have left something to be desired, no one ever complained about the size of the servings. Three meals were provided six days a week (sandwiches were packed for lunch on the few occasions when we worked too far from the outfit to return at midday), and an abbreviated breakfast was available over a wide time span on Sunday, after which the icebox and pantry were available to us for the remainder of the day. These Sunday guidelines held unless we were working or were parked so far from civilization that Jim felt a full-meal schedule was required.

I will not attempt to describe the noon and evening meals, other that to remind the reader that, traditionally, the working man’s dinner is at noon, and to state that the variety of steaming hot dishes served up in temperatures that often ran well over 100 degrees was no more astounding than the speed at which they disappeared. Breakfast I can describe, as it was standardized and identical to the one served on the gang I ran several years later. We always had the following selection actually set out on the table, family style.
1. Two kinds of iced fruit juice
2. Two kinds of cold cereal
3. A hot cereal
4. Flapjacks and syrup
5. Platters of fried eggs
6. Two kinds of meat (usually bacon and sausage)
7. Fried potatoes
8. Hot biscuits and gravy
9. Bread and buns with jams, jellies, and butter
10. Oranges, grapefruit, and bananas, if available locally
11. Milk, cream, and coffee
All you could eat was guaranteed, the full meal plan cost $8.75 a week! The married men (who would eat with us occasionally) pain 50 cents a meal, cash on the barrel head.

That first night I remember being awakened a number of times by locomotives whizzing by, less than four feet from the open window at the head of my bunk, at speeds in excess of 50 mph. The bunk car would sway, and, if the train was a freight, the noise was ferocious. That sort of thing, and thoughts of the consequences of a derailment, could keep a man of my present age awake forever, but it was only a rather exciting experience at the time. By the third or fourth night, I would have slept soundly through the sinking of the Titanic at the head of my bed.

To assume that I fit right into a slot in the gang would be a mistake, and, although there was no overt hostility, it was immediately obvious to me that I had intruded upon a closed community. However, as I discovered in later years, it’s hard to stay upset with a youngster who does his best to please and is neither supercilious nor a smart-aleck, and I guess that worked in my behalf with Fred, Sherman, and the rest of the men. By the end of the first week, I had earned the nickname “Young’un” and the reputation of always being the “Arkansas side” (the wrong side) of every lift – backing up when everyone else was going forward and generally in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The senior man on the gang, in terms of service, was Mac. Mac was a black Irishman who did all the oxy-acetylene cutting for the gang. He invariably wore a blue shirt, which he occasionally washed, and a set of bib overalls, which he wore until they fell off. He also wore a leather cutting cape over his shoulders, a black mechanics cap turned backwards, a pair of black-lensed cutting goggles over his eyes or on his forehead, a quarter-inch of black beard and, often, a black look. As physically tough a man as I have ever known, Mac’s only vice was smoking – up to four packs a day – but he never drank or “went to town.” He worked on letters to his wife every single night, went straight home each year on his vacation, and sent every nickel he possibly could back to support his family. Mac also managed to use the phrases “GD” and “SOB” in almost every sentence, a habit as unconscious as the present day use of “y’know”. I am sorry to say that during a long career in construction, that habit has rubbed off a bit on me, and, as my entire family can testify, I have problems with my blue vocabulary to this day.

My first assignment did not require a lot of talent. The gang was cutting away and replacing cracked gussets under a long but very low steel-girder bridge where body clearances were snug. I spent most of a week crouched behind Mac with a pail of water and a dipper, putting him out whenever he caught on fire. “GD, get one on my SOB’n head Young’un,” Mac would yell; and day after a day or two, I got to where I could differentiate between the relatively harmless sparks from his cutting torch and the larger particles of molten metal that would really burn him and set his clothes on fire.

When we moved off that bridge, Mac allowed as how I how done a good job. For some reason everyone on the gang seemed very pleased about that. It was several months before Gene revealed to me that the whole crew had first believed that I was a spy sent out from Chicago solely to investigate rumored drinking binges by some members of the gang. Evidently my stint as Mac’s personal fireman firmly established my credentials. Social acceptance won in strange ways!

[:I] more to come! [:I]

[Anonymous]

Good evening Tom! I'll have an Old-Style with bromo-seltzer. Please set the boys up too.

Thanks to Don, Pete, Al, Rob, Ted, Nick, Russell, Mike, and our bartender Tom, for the congratulations on becoming a ROOT member! Al, kudos on another fine Streamliner Corner, and Rob entertained with more Classic Steam. Nice poem Mike, and I really enjoyed the picture of your Grandfathers loco! Thanks Tom, for another nostalgic look at the CP!

Now for my contribution. Here is part I of another article a swiped from a fallen railfan magazine. This is my Bridge Engineer series:

Through Thick and Thin by Bland Osborn – From Vintage Rail magazine Sep/Oct 1998

Jobs weren’t all the plentiful in the summer of 1946. Because of the trouble everyone was having adjusting to peace, only a few companies had interviewed on campus for civil engineers. I talked to all of them and managed to get two offers. The first was from Martin Aircraft to work in Baltimore for $225 a month as an engineering trainee in aircraft structural stresses. The second was from the Atchison, Topeka $ Sante Fe Railway. The Sante Fe interviewer said that the company needed a junior designer for the Bridge Department in the Chicago office, but first it would like the candidate to spend a year as a steel-bridgeman with System Steel Bridge Gang No. 1. This gang maintained (and sometimes built) steel bridges on some 8,500 miles of trackage in Kansas, Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California. The pay would be $1.02 an hour, and the gang normally worked 54 hours a week. WHOOPIE!!

I was so happy to receive an offer that would get me out of buildings and away from drafting boards that I would have consented to even less princely stipend, and I accepted so fast that the interviewer was somewhat nonplused – he hadn’t gotten around to such goodies as the five paid holidays and the five days vacation after the first year. I didn’t care: Just point me in the direction of the wild, wild West! So on Labor Day I packed my kit and the next morning climbed on the Grand Canyon Limited, headed for Chambers, Arizona. The Sante Fe had given me a pass for the trip, and Dad and Mom had staked me to the extent of an upper berth and 100 bucks. The Limited was one of our no-extra-fare Chicago to L.A. trains (the hotshots being the Super Chief and the El-Capitan) and was generally pulled by a steam locomotive clear up until the time I left the railroad. The engines used in the flatlands between Kansas City and La Junta, Colorado, had drivers some seven feet in diameter – three on each side. To start even a 10-car passenger train, these engines usually had to take slack. However, once it got moving, the engine traveled 22 feet each time the wheels went around. Only 240 revolutions took you a mole! I’ll tell you right now that although I have been up in a jet night-fighter and a hot air balloon, down in scuba gear and a hard-hat diving suit, driven over 100 mph in an automobile, and done aerobatics in airplanes, nothing in the world has been as satisfying to my soul and senses as really rollin’ in a high-wheeled steam locomotive. Not that I rode up front that first trip west, you understand; but if the Hereafter lasts an eternity, I hope it bears a striking resemblance to the cab of a Baldwin passenger engine.

Dad did his usual fantastic job of accommodation selection, and I discovered that my seat mate, and thus the person who would occupy the berth below mine, was an absolutely gorgeous blonde, just my age, named Sue. On the other hand, Dad typically made sure I didn’t even try to go astray by arranging for Sue’s mother to have the lower berth just across the aisle. In any event, the three of us had a most congenial time until, the following afternoon, the conductor announced that the next stop would be at a sidetrack named Chambers – just for me.

Now here is one of my mental snapshots, and we’ll see if you can share it. First, picture a teenager in a gray gabardine suit complete with white shirt and tie standing alone on a railroad track. Picture a train, trailing black smoke, disappearing down the track toward the descending sun. Conjure up the northern Arizona semi-desert composed of sand, sagebrush, and outcroppings of rock shimmering in the heat – and imagine an absolute absence of any sound or sign of life or human habitation. Got it?

I must have stood there for five minutes, Dad’s old World War I bedroll and my suitcase at my feet, before I finally heard a sound. It was a truck about a mile away on Route 66 (that fabled highway of song, story, and even a TV series) that paralleled the Sante Fe from Texas to the Coast. Thus reassured that I was not totally alone in the world, aware that I was at the eastern end of a sidetrack, and knowing that the train had not passed anything as it slowed and halted, I picked up my kit and started westward on the ties. Very shortly I could see, dancing in the distance through the heat waves, what appeared to be a string of boxcars – and so it was. My home for most of the current year.

When I arrived, sweated-out and cotton-mouthed, it appeared that the outfit was deserted; but no, I could hear the sound of a hammer, and I found Louie forge-welding spud wrenches in the tool car. This ancient is the first of a group of unforgettable characters you will meet in these pages, and he made me welcome as his rough nature allowed, offering me a drink from an oak cask equipped with dipper and filled with water, moss, and chunks of ice. By the time the rest of the gang arrived home from the job that evening, I had put on my bib overalls; learned most of what Louie knew about welding; and, by cranking the blower on the forge, admiring his handiwork, and submitting humbly to considerable criticism, found my first friend.

Jim – small, taciturn, and in his fifties – was the gang’s foreman. He decided that I should move into a car with Fred, Sherman, and Bill; and I was to be very happy with that decision. Our bunk car, like all the rest, was essentially a converted wooden boxcar. It was divided into three rooms by two partitions, each partition with a door in the middle. The rooms at each end of the car contained four steel cots and four wooden lockers. Luckily, Jim almost never assigned more than four men to a car, so Fred and I shared one end and Sherman and Bill the other. There was a small, screened, double-hung window near the head of each cot. Walls, floor, and ceiling were of wood which had, in some previous life perhaps, been painted green. The middle room had several windows and, centered on each side, doors which lead out into thin air about 4 1/2' feet off the ground. To get in or out, one climbed a vertical steel ladder attached to the car under each door while holding onto handrails that ran up each side.

At one end of the central room were two large wooden closets, one on each side of the door to Fred’s and my bunk room. One closet contained coal for the stove. The other held a vertical piece of 12-inch pipe (that looked down upon the ties) with a toilet seat bolted on the upper end. We naturally never used this arrangement unless the outfit was on the move, so that compartment was used to store the mop, the broom, and various junk. Our only source of heat was a potbellied, cast-iron caboose stove located in the center of the car. Near the door to Sherman and Bill’s room was a wooden table with four wooden chairs, over which hung a single, bare 60-watt light bulb. Each bunk room had a similar 40-watt light. Not exactly plush quarters!

[passengerfan]

Good Evening Tom and the rst of the gang. Time for a triple CR and a round for the house.

PASSENGERFAN AL'S STREAMLINER CORNER #9

DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the C&EI - L&N - NC&STL - AB&C - ACL - FEC in its 1,434 mile route between Chicago and Miami operating every third day in 29 hours 30 minutes.

The DIXIE FLAGLER was the name assigned to the former HENRY M. FLAGLER consist beginning December 17, 1940 after the FEC had found the HENRY M. FLAGLER operating a daily round trip between Miami and Jacksonville somewhat less than profitable. The Budd built HENRY M. FLAGLER consist was withdrawn and thoroughly shopped before beginning its new route as the DIXIE FLAGLER.

IN addition to the seven car DIXIE FLAGLER there were two additional Coach Streamliners inaugurated at the same time one owned by the IC the CITY OF MIAMI and the PRR owned SOUTH WIND. The three trains would provide daily service between Chicago and Miami except each would travel a different route over different railroads except for that part of the trip between Jacksonville and Miami that would operate via the FEC.

The DIXIE FLAGLER would be diesel powered only over its own rails between Jacksonville and Miami with each of the other roads providing a Pacific Locomotive and tender for their parts all were streamlined except for the ACL power that was a non streamlined Pacific and tender.

The DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the Chicago & Eastern Illinois (C&EI) between Chicago, Illinois and Evansville, Indiana. Between Evansville and Nashville, Tennessee the DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the Louisville and Nashville Railroad (L&N). The Nashville Chattanooga and St. Louis (NC&STL) operated the DIXIE FLAGLER between Nashville and and Atlanta, Georgia. Between Atlanta and Waycross, Georgia the Atlanta Birmingham and Coast (AB&C) a subsidiary of the Atlantic Coast Line operated the DIXIE FLAGLER. The Atlantic Coast Line (ACL) did the honors between Waycross and Jacksonville, Florida. Between Jacksonville and Miami the DIXIE FLAGLER operated over the rails of its owning road the Florida East Coast (FEC). The DIXIE FLAGLER averaged 48 miles per hour for the Chicago - Miami trip in either direction. Not bad when one remembers their were six engine changes and seventeen stops enroute.

CONSIST OF DIXIE FLAGLER

1008 (C&EI) Streamlined K2 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Chicago - Evansville)

277 (L&N) Streamlined K5 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Evansville - Nashville)

536 (NC&STL) Streamlined K-2d 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Nashville - Atlanta)

79 (AB&C) Streamlined J-1 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender
(Atlanta - Waycross)

(ACL) 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive and Tender (Number unknown)
(Waycross - Jacksonville)

1001 (FEC) EMC E3A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit
(Jacksonville - Miami)

STUART Baggage 13-Crew Dormitory 22 Revenue Seat Coach

HOBE SOUND 60-Revenue Seat Coach

DELRAY BEACH 53-Revenue Seat Coach with Stewardess Room

FORT LAUDERDALE 48-Seat Dining Car

HOLLYWOOD 60-Revenue Seat Coach

MELBOURNE 60-Revenue Seat Coach

LAKE WORTH 32-Seat Tavern Lounge Bar 21-Seat Lounge Observation

TTFN Al

[Anonymous]

Good Thanksgiving Eve everyone. Tom, I've had to recognize a few precautionary steps in my normally "care free abandon" life style. Naturally, this altered bahavior pattern will commence after tomorrow's feasting. If you would, a frothy collared egg nog with a wee dram of Jameson's Irish whisky, thanks.[^] Ah yes, the Western Pacific and those colorful silver, orange and black appointments on the diesels. Perhaps they are seen as a bit "loud" to the more conservative of us. But still, there is something that just "fits" the lines of the EMDs so well, don't you think? St. Louis seems to me, a great option as a second Rendesvous site. Central to the U.S. and not too far distant for above the "49th," there is much on offer in that fine city.

Nick, a happy belated Happy Birthday wish for Hannah and good luck with your restoration efforts about the homestead. Glad you enjoyed the e-mail and "period piece." Russell, thanks for the Stephenson "connection," a little history adds a great deal in our common quest for reasons that made "Classic Trains" well... "Classic."[tup] Passengerfan Al, I had to "catch my breath" when you listed the mileage from Minnesota to Houston. I don't know why but I never really thought about the North to South distances being that impressive. Certainly, the "articulated" trains never seemed to have wide acceptance in the U.S. as their Talgo counterparts did in Europe. As to the Aero Train with its "Turnpike Cruiser" Greyhound bus bodies for passenger cars; little may be said save "nothing ventured nothing gained." Fine posts, as always Al![tup] Mike, you certainly have something to be proud about regarding your Father's faithful service to the Vermont Central. What a singular honor to be chosen as Winston Churchill's chauffeur on the rails while he visited the U.S. and Canada during the war years. The pic of that 4-8-4 is awesome![tup] Are you sure that you aren't related in some way to CM3? Both of you have graced us with superb selections of prose and poetry and it is appreciated probably more than you folks know.

Rob, by Jeeves you've done it again. We can always rely on you for, not only "picking up the ball," but the whole stadium along with it. There is enough research here to earn a doctoral degree for yourself.[tup] Hmmm! Dr. Rob has a true "ring to it." Nick "got it right!" We will definately need a "Our" Place repository for the prolific work being submitted. Not the least of these being our cheif Chef's collection of menus.[tup] Siberianmo's input could fill one building of the Smithsonian in and of itself.

Pete and Don thanks for your holiday greetings and, of course, I would like to echo your good thoughts to all of our Members and Guests. Today was another trip to "sick call" but this time it was trasport for an old friend. Perhaps someday, I'll grow accustomed to that environment but I certainly hope not.[v] Okay Boris, we appreciate your "quick" method of cleaning the bird's feathers using only your K-nines. ("Look Ma, no hands.") However, please keep it "under wraps." Some customers are a tad squimish seeing this method "in the raw."[xx(][alien] Happy Thanksgiving one and all and happy rails.[:D]

[nickinwestwales]

Well good evening everybody, I`d like to start tonight with "Ten Green Bottles" and if I can still stand after that,we will play some music for you..................2...3...4--------
Oop`s-sorry,wrong persona....
Try again....
Hi guys,happy half-way-there day,the weekend beckons ( with an added party tomorrow to add zest )
[4:-)]TOM -How are you sir,will you join me in a glass or two ?-Glad you got some quality time with the small ones,as wiser folk than I have said "They change so fast" [^][tup]
Right,lets have the first of those green bottles and attend to business:-
Oh,by the bye-It`s a standing joke amongst local chefs that the local farmboys regard chicken as a vegetarian dish..........
Thanks for detail on F40`s..[tup]..O.K-

BAR CHANDLER ROB--Howdy,first up,hope you keeping warm and dry-spoke to sister earlier and she was somewhat pre-occupied with imminent blizzard & -13+wind chill forecast-a touch more than bracing I would think........
Ah yes,[4:-)]TOMS E-units---looking at them, I think they would look less strange to the eye if the yellow extended further back. We expect to see a certain ratio of blue to yellow on a VIA cab unit,these ones make you look twice [^]
RUSS -Hi-like the clowns hankerchief analogy-catching up no fun during busy cycles[banghead] ,glad you are firing on most cylinders again-Nice hit on the Early Days-Can provide more data on this period if required,have a detailed write-up of Rainhill Trials including eye-witness statements,will try to find time to look it out.
As an odd and almost unbelievable footnote,a little old lady name of Ellen Skyrme,who is a neighbour of mine and ,at 97,our current oldest resident is the Great-Great-Grandaughter of Trevithick and enormously proud of the fact,[tup]
MIKE-We ALWAYS maintain a stock of black pudding-how could we presume to offer a Full English without ?----We also maintain a small stock of curious black pudding,not for the Hoi-Polloi,obviously...
as to catenary,my understanding of the term as used over here is "All the masts and cable work from the junction boxes to the pantographs"-if terminology different over there I`m sure someone can catch me -
By-the way---glorious pic of that "Mountain"-Looks like the South African Railway 3`6" Mountains big brother-----thanks for sharing family stuff with us ,for my part,I am delighted to know that the man who won the war with one speech was in the safest of hands when in your land [tup]
O.K-I think it`s about time I went and fed the Wurlitzer for a bit...any requests chaps..?
no-?-surely your`e not going to trust to my judgement here.....oh well you can always turn off the sound for a while if it hurts that badly......seems like a good moment to sit back and let someone else get a word in,later,nick[C=:-)]

[passengerfan]

Good Afternoon Tom and the rest of the gang. Time for a double CR and a round for the house.

Answers for Wanswheel's questions. Re the articulated cars they were two cars operating on three trucks the center truck supported one end of each of the two cars thus articulated. Albert Lea and El Reno major cities exactly the reason the Rock Island went bankrupt from serving towns like these. El Reno was as close as the Rock Island north-south mainline came to Oklahoma City. A doodlebug meant most north-south trains at El Reno to transport passengers and luggage to and from Oklahoma City.

TTFN AL

[siberianmo]

G’day Gents!

Okay, Cindy I’m back and here for the rest of the day. Thanx for your help and I’m sure the guyz enjoyed watchin’ ya back there, rather than who they normally view behind the bar! [swg] Don’t know what in the world we’re gonna do once your sabbatical is over. [%-)][%-)]

Okay, as promised, now I’ll try to address your Posts, briefly though:

Theodorebear Ted Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 03:38:12

So, I’m not the only one who experiences sleepless nights, eh [?] As with you, my meds have been the culprit, only I’ve been puttin’ up with this for over 2 years. Honestly cannot recall the last time I slept through ….. Ain’t it great this thing called the “Golden Years”[?] Well, of course compared to the alternative – sure ‘nuf! [swg]

nickinwestwales Nick Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 05:26:15

Thought perhaps you pulled one of your “gone for a few weeks” capers … thankfully, not the case! [tup]

The F40PH’s are from two sources – Bachmann and Walthers Trainline series. I was able to find two different numbers from each source, giving me a total of four distinct numbers. I did purchase some ‘duplicates,’ just to have a good looking inventory in the yards. There are total of six Via Rail F40’s on the pike and a “slew” of Amtrak’s from Bachman, Walthers and LifeLike.

The EMD E8 A/A units are Rivarossi and I love ‘em. Only thing is they numbered both units the SAME. I have E8’s in other road names, and all of ‘em are duplicate numbers. I guess they simply “don’t get it.” Anyway, they are nicely done, run extremely well and look great with the “smoothsides” consist in the blue/yellow livery. My display case for Canadian passenger ‘stuff’ has the E8’s in CP’s maroon/grey livery with the beaver shields. Couldn’t find any E8’s for the CP Rail “action red,” so I went with F7’s. Good eye – my man – the Via caboose is coupled to an SW that I had painted and numbered to my specs. Just something I wanted for the pike.

The more I think of it, the more I am inclined to push for St. Louis as the site for our 2nd Annual Rendezvous – that way you guyz can check out the Can-Am! [tup] [swg] And of course, the actual bar we call ”Our” Place. It’s the Trainwreck Saloon these days (daze) and is located about 15 minutes from where I live. It’s the structure that was used as the prototype for the saloon building I’ve turned into this wonderful watering hole! [swg] The original name was “The Nine Mile House” given that it was located 9 miles from the city/county line. Original, eh [?]

TheR17 subway cars in the “muted” scheme remind me more of what I used to ride in NYC decades ago. Those rather gaudy red cars (sorry, Rob) are well, gaudy. To each his own; some people prefer chicken. <huh>

passengerfan Al Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 07:26:52

Another epistle – this time on the Twin Star Rocket. Man oh man am I ever behind in my “required reading list.” [swg] Nice job. But gimme a break over this holiday weekend, okay [?]

jdonald Don Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 08:37:11

Thanx for the best wishes! We also observed Canada’s Thanksgiving Day back in October, as this IS after all, Can-Am County! [swg]

trolleyboy Rob Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 11:15:33

Say what [?] <huh> Whutchatalkin’ ‘bout [?] I am not following you with regard to your comment that you read I left that “thing” behind the bar. Where did ya read that [?] I think you’re into the paint thinner again! [swg] Boris is NEVER to be “left” behind the bar … NEV-AH!

Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 12:26:27 and 15:36:18

Good to see ya! And no – I’m not planning on weathering the R17 subway cars. If they were gonna be sittin’ in view all of the time, perhaps. But given that I’m going to be placing them in a very limited view situation (previously described a few times), nope…..

Good info on the “Stephenson’s.” [tup] Regarding the Chiefs – a shame about Priest Holmes, for sure will be missed. Don’t count ‘em out, Coach Vermeil has been known to pull more than rabbits out of his hat! [swg]

If we don’t see ya tomorrow, hope you and yours have a wonderful family day! [tup][tup]

wanswheel Mike Posted: 23 Nov 2005, 12:31:45

Well, Mike I’d say you mastered the technique of Posting on the Fourms. Nice job! [tup][tup] There’s a little somethin’ for everyone in that Post of yours!

Nice shot of the steam loco … they were impressive machines fer sure, fer sure! [tup]

Okay, once again – thanx to all who have bought the house a round! [tup][tup]


Later!

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[Trainnut484]

G'afternoon again Tom and all. I'm back again just briefly. One more class to get through before the holiday. I'll have a Cola for now.

Wanswheel Mike, thanks for the AFL rundown. Hopefully we can survive this Sunday, otherwise our playoffs hopes are nill. I hope pwolfe Pete doesn't mind me piping in about George and Robert Stephenson. A couple, or few, of interesting stuff about them. George Stephenson was very poor and illiterate during his childhood. He worked in the same coal mines along with his father. At the age of 18, he saved up enough money to hire a home school teacher. George repaired clocks and watches, and soled shoes to make extra money. He drew from experiences from Nicholas Cugnot, a French military engineer, who invented a steam car that traveled on city streets and only did about 2 to 3 miles per hour, and had to resstart the fire every ten to fifteen minutes, and Richard Trevithick, a Cornishman who built the first true steam locomotive in 1804 (for tramways), and other inventors before him about designing locomotives. He concluded that smooth wheels running on a smooth surface would reduce drag and improve traction if sufficient weight was added to the locomotive. George invented the first steam locomotive to be used by railroads. Cugnot Trevithick, and others before him, built steam locomotives for tramways. Another major improvement to steam locomotives that George Stephenson designed were the drive rods. He built his first steamer in 1814, and was called "The Blucher", but it wasn't the smoothest running engine, and later was abandoned.

George's son, Robert, was more successful as an inventor than his father. Both George and Robert built the Liverpool and Manchester Railroad in 1830. Robert became chief engineer, and built the "Rocket" and other steam locomotives for the railroad. His father, George Stephenson, started the railroad revolution, and Robert took the helm from there.

All of this information comes from an essay I did for an English class a few years ago. There's more to this than what I've just typed, but I don't want anyone to [zzz] on me [:D]

Take care for now,

Russell

[siberianmo]

G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #29

Here’s something to ponder with regard to our appreciation and fascination with
Classic Trains. Check out this advertisement regarding the Canadian Pacific from 1950:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . 18 vacation delights seeing . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . EAST-to-West Canada . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . Value-minded travelers go Canadian Pacific! . . . . . . . . . .

Want your vacation sunny and salty? With family fun?

1. It’s waiting in down-east Nova Scotia at the Digby Pines, a picturesque hotel and cottage colony. 2. Your comfort’s in the good care of Canadian Pacific. 3. Like “another world” city? See Old Québec. 4. Ride in a Calèche. 5. Shop winding streets. 6.Visit Ste. Anne de Beaupré, 7. Or Isle d'Orléans! 8. Relax gaily at Canadian Pacific’s great Château Frontenac! 9. Onward! By Canadian Pacific train, notred for food and service. 10. Stop in gay Montréal, queenly Ottawa or colorful Toronto. 11. But stay and Play in Ontario’s lake-and-woods country! 12.Westward! Along the scene north shore of Lake Superior and across rolling prairies. 13. Then through the sky-high Canadian Rockies try Canadian Pacific Diesel train! 14 Stop at Banff Springs and Lake Louise and see unparalleled beauty! 15. Roll on by Canadian Pacific through Evergreen scenery. 16. Visit Victoria and reel in roses! 17. Stay there the Empress set in famous gardens! 18. Golf, swimming, sailing, fishing . . . take your choice!

Ask your travel agent about a world of service: To Europe by White Empress ships. Two Canadian Pacific air routes; to the Far East, or New Zealand and Australia. Across Canada, 19 fine hotels and resorts.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Canadian Pacific . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
See your local agent or Canadian Pacific in principal cities in U.S. and Canada


Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

CHECK THE MONDAY SUMMARY and INDEX PAGES FOR MORE GREAT NOSTALGIA POSTS!

[siberianmo]

G'day!

Take a break Cindy - have some lunch.

Only back for a short stay - gotta get movin' on some outside things before the temps drop to the intolerable. Supposed to be near 60 (F) this afternoon, then drop into the teens by early AM. [yeah] That's more like it! [swg] Time to get some outside decorations up ....

Spent the AM with 2 of my grandkids at their school for Grandparents Day. It's a nice "thing" that they put on every year - get to spend some time in the classrooms - then a prayer service (it's a private school) and then some snacks. Nice morning indeed. My other three live in Virginia, so I don't get to see 'em very much ......

Nice to see ya jdonald Don - trolleyboy Rob - Trainnut484 Russell and wanswheel Mike I'll get some "specifics" put together later on ...... [tup]

Thanx to all who bought a round! [tup]

I'll Post a NOSTALGIA piece - then I'm gone ...... Be nice to Cindy! [swg]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[wanswheel]

Hi Tom and OUR PLACE gangsters (poots, reservists, regs, dregs) Congrats Doug!
Given that tomorrow is Thursday, a <light> lunch would be in order, maybe a
Dr. Pepper and a maple donut.
Nick any leftover black pudding? I'm curious.

And way behind the [8].
I've lived a few lifetimes as an incompetent scribe. Every time I thought I was near the Pearly Gate there was a sign saying "Go back and fix it!" Let me try my luck once more:

Al, the Twin Star Rocket served the major cities of Albert Lea and El Reno. Right.
I wonder what articulated means. Joint according to the dictionary.
Rob, I now know what a pantagraph is. What's a catenary?
Ted, good to see you made it through another V.A.M.C. ordeal.
Russ, the AFL: your Chiefs, NY Titans (Jets), Boston Patriots, Bills, Chargers, Raiders, Houston Oilers
Pete, did you know that Robert Stephenson of the tubular bridge was the son of George Stephenson, inventor of the locomotive? I didn't.
Don, Happy Thursday!

A poem by Edward J. Phelps (for colo r) (like there's not enough color in OUR PLACE)

Here Boston waits for Ogdensburgh
And Ogdensburgh for Montreal
And late New York tarrieth
And Saratoga hindreth all!
From far Atlantic's wave-swept bays
To Mississippi's turbid tide,
All accidents, mishaps, delays,
Are gathered here and multiplied!
Oh, fellow man, avoid this spot
As you would plague or Peter Funk shun!
And I hope in hell
His soul may dwell
Who first invented Essex Junction!

And long and late conductors tell
Of trains delayed or late or slow
Till e'en the very engine's bell
Takes up the cry, No go! No go!
Oh, let me from this hole depart,
By any route, so't be a lone one,
He cried, with madness in his heart,
And jumped aboard a train, the wrong one,
And as he vanished in the smoke
He shouted with redoubled unction
I hope in hell
His soul may dwell
Who first invented Essex Junction!
_____________________________________________________________________

My grandfather's engine: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cv/cv-s602.jpg (no color at all)
He retired with the distinction of having been the only man in engine service on the Central Vermont who had never once in his career had to "give up his engine on the road." He was taken out of his regular turn to run Winston Churchill's special train to the Quebec Conference during World War II, handling the train from White River Junction to Montreal, because of his reputation as a "smooth man with the throttle and brakes."

Mike

[Trainnut484]

Good afternoon Tom and all. I'm just taking a break from classes today, so I'll just have coffee.

Congrats to Doug on being in the Reserved Stool Status. Doug, have your favorite poison on me [tup]

I've tried to keep up with the past postings since my last visit, but it's like pulling those "clown hankerchiefs" out of your wrist. They just keep coming and coming [:D]

Dan, glad to hear your're getting better. Hopefully the Midland hiatus is helping in your recovery.

Tom, your subway cars look neat. Are you going to weather them or leave them the way they are?

Ted, it's a good thing you survived your doctor's visit. I came down with a viral infection Monday [xx(]. I'm better today other than a little achyness, stuffyness, and coughyness. The sore throatyness is over. Thank goodness the over-the-counter stuff is taking care of it.

That's about all for now. Got to get on to my next class. If I don't check in by tomorrow, everyone have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

Russell

[trolleyboy]

Morning Tom. I'm just in quick,before I go to work so I'll grab a tea and a rahter large roast beef sandwich[dinner]

b Those late nights must be getting to you, I was shocked when I had read that you left the "thing" behind the bar. Figured Leon was sick or something.

A 4pm dinner start would be fine , but you will be in the tender mersies of Hilda and Helga unti 6-6:30 when i get in from work. I would never make our girls work they deserve to be waited on for a change. that ought to get th manager and chief chef salivating. [swg]

Darn my keen eyes. Your assumptuion may be correct,subway platforms do tend to be a bit higher ( keeps people from frying on the third rail [swg] ) For my two cemts I do like the all red redbirds better. Just a Toronto thing that paint job is close to the TTC's original subway car paint job.

I did get your email on the speacials. tkaes a while for me to compile i had those two ready to go and the cunstomer count had been low sooo. Next bit likely won't materialize for another week week and a half likely.


Ted Glad that you made it through. Aren't MD's grand. I suppose that if you become a certified night vampire, Loen and I will have someone else to talk to at the bar.

I don't think a hardbound copy will be comming soon. ( Too many copyright infringements I should think )

Nick Glad you came up for air. Also glad that you approve of the menu and staffing for tomorrow. Wouldn't get too close to Helga when she's cooking though, she gets into this trance like state and knives etc start flailing. Also good that hilda is a fair seemstress the bird fragments should look quite whole and appetising,The excess shot has been fashioned into a jewellry line as well.waste not want not. Oh ted Yes indeed maple leaf dressing, house speaciallity don't you know. [tup]


Nick to jump in before other's if the E unit paint job you were commenting on was the CPR Tuscan one's they were indeed real. The only three e units purchased for canada was done by the CPR three E 8's 1800,1801,1802. Initially they were a pool train with the BAR main to Montreal trains. In later life they roamed the system. Spent alot of time as commuter power for Montreal. They later recieved a horribl;e action red and packman paint job. 1802 was wrecked in a grade crossing incident but the other two went to Via in 1976 and recieved an even more awfull rendition of the Via Blue and Yellow paint job.To big of locomotives for that paint scheme, it looked much better on the FPA4's and FP7's and 9's


so long for now. Rob

[jdonald]

Mornin Tom & all
Coffee & a dani***his morning and whatever you're having.

Just a short post this A.M. to wish you fellas south of the border a very happy and safe Thanksgiving. Lotsa turkey & gravey, football and the appropriate spirits[:p][^]

Bye for now-keep it on the rails

Don

[siberianmo]

Good Morning Gents!

Not much time for acknowledgments today - places to go, people to see ' things to do. So, Cindy has the bar from 8 AM 'til my return in early PM. [swg] Be nice! [4:-)][oX)]

Appreciate the Posts: Theodorebear Ted - nickinwestwales Nick - passengerfan Al [tup][tup]

Thanksgiving [dinner] menu and servings will be overseen by trolleyboy Rob and his "staff" of Hilda 'n Helga, et al [wow]

The revised list for the Order of the Stools has been Posted - check it out for those who are new or a bit confused with regard to "who's who." [swg]

Later!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

Active Members - Order of the Stools (rev. Nov. 22nd, 2005)

Permanent Stool Theodorebear TED Manager of “Our” Place and customer with unparalleled good cheer [swg] and determination. Florida connection.

Permanent Stool nickinwestwales NICK Chief Chef [C=:-)] of “Our” Place and customer supreme from West Wales. British Isles connection.

Permanent Stool trolleyboy ROB Bar Chandeler of ”Our” Place If it concerns street cars, talk to me! – and Ontario connection.

Permanent Stool passengerfan AL Walking, talking “Classic Train” aficionado [2c] and author. California connection.

Permanent Stool West Coast S DAVE California man of mystery [8D], real and model rail enthusiast, and West Coast connection. Silver Throttle Award

Permanent Stool coalminer 3 CM3 Northeast rail aficionado [2c] and West Virginia connection. Silver Throttle Award

Reserved Stool earlydiesels DAN Restorations are us! … And train lover at large [2c]. Southwest Missouri connection.

Reserved Stool Trainnut484 RUSSELL AT&SF and rail enthusiast, model railroader [:D] and Kansas connection.

Reserved Stool pwolfe PETE British rail aficionado [2c] supreme, passenger train enthusiast and mid-Missouri connection.

NEW Reserved Stool barndad DOUG Railroad museum enthusiast, aficionado [2c] of steel wheels on steel tracks, and Illinois connection.


For the benefit of those who are new or who have forgotten, the The Order of the Stools is ”Our” Place’s way of recognizing those customers who have demonstrated their willingness to participate and contribute to the success of this cyber bar ‘n grill in an inclusive and continuing manner.

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!