"In 1930, business interests in Staten Island had an idea--encourage ocean liners to dock at the underutilized Stapleton piers, where they could be met on the pier by Baltimore & Ohio passenger trains. The B&O, which controlled the Staten Island Rapid Transit (SIRT) system, would have a monopoly on this traffic. In March, they ran a special train to demonstrate its feasibility.
0:48 At the head of the special train is B&O class B-18ca 4-6-0 Ten-Wheeler No. 2024. The 2024 had appeared in the 1927 Fair of the Iron Horse and was the locomotive of choice for special assignments like this.
2:46 Richmond Borough President John A. Lynch (1884-1954) speaks on behalf of Mayor Jimmy Walker.
4:38 B&O VP of Operations Charles W. Galloway (d. 1940) speaks next on behalf of the railroad.
5:19 An unidentified man (possibly A. C. Fack, according to the notes with the film) speaks. The camera crew cuts off early.
6:02 After the speeches, the party boards the ferry DONGAN HILLS, one of the newest Staten Island ferries. Aboard was a bus that took the party to Times Square."
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Thanks Mr. Jones, that was interesting!
Too bad nothing ever came of the idea, but I'd guess the Great Depression had a lot to do with killing it.
And had things been different, they would have finished the electrified tunnel at the Narrows and been able to run freight between those piers and Bay Ridge (along with all the other advantages that tunnel extension eould offer...)
PRR reportedly tried running trains? cars? to Brooklyn piers in 1930 -- as I recall the brochure mentions connecting with German liners.
timzPRR reportedly tried running trains? cars? to Brooklyn piers in 1930
The brochure shows 13 summer North German Lloyd departures from Bay Ridge Pier 4, on the Bremen, Europa and Columbus. Says the "train" arrives Penn Sta at 1950 EST, leaves at 1950 and arrives Pier 4 at 2045, which doesn't sound easy including an engine change, a reverse move, and maybe cutting out the cars that are going to the pier. The ship was due to leave at 2330. Says you could check baggage thru, train to ship. Rail fare was 80 cents more than the fare to NY.
Wonder what the best route was -- reverse at Sunnyside and run east on LIRR Montauk branch?
timzWonder what the best route was -- reverse at Sunnyside and run east on LIRR Montauk branch?
What it likely would involve is an engine change at some point. Presumably this would be to some sort of New Haven AC motor, as for other passenger trains outbound toward New England. I believe the entire route from Penn Station to Bay Ridge had been electrified (with 11kV overhead) at least a decade by 1930. I wonder if this traffic was an incentive to extend the 11kV electrification conversion south of NYC to Philadelphia... some of which I think would actually have been in process of construction in 1930. (Isn't there a film clip of a train exiting the North River Tunnels in about 1930 that shows some of the civil construction of the overhead electrification if you know what to look for?)
...and did that brochure mention any service down the New Haven from points east, which would have been a straight shot on the 'original' branch main line...
Doubt that Penn Station had catenary in 1930.
If they ran Penn Sta to Sunnyside and turned north toward the Hell Gate Bridge ... dunno if they could reach the freight tracks to Bay Ridge anywhere in Queens. Anyone got a timetable showing an interlocking between the bridge and where the freight and passenger tracks split?
In any case, no way to run NY Penn to Bay Ridge without a reverse move somewhere.
A special train on the SIRT 18-years later:
Fresh Pond Junction, with a small yard, connects the Bay Ridge line and the "Montauk Branch"of the LIRR, the secondary route between Long Island City and Jamaica. Tracks from there north and over the Hell Gate Bridge were owned by the New York Connecting RR, half NYNH&H and half PRR. The freight tracks or track on the Bridge now may be CSX. Currently, CP, Providence and Worcester, and CSX interchange with NY & Atlantic at Fresh Pond Junction and yard. NY & Atlantic operates to Bay Ridge, but I believe switching there is now performed by Bush Terminal, owned by the Port Authority.
The fastest way for a passenger train with a DD1 coming from the west to reach Bay Ridge in 1930, would be for the DD1 to handle the train to Sunnyside, push it the short distance to LI City, then have steam replace the DD1 and take it to Fresh Pond. where a connecting track did exist to head the train to Bay Ridge.
That track may still exist. I understand there is also a new connection to the subway system there, to both the IRT New Lots Avenue Line and (a guess) the BMT Canarsie Line.
timzDoubt that Penn Station had catenary in 1930.
If the traffic developed (in the absence of the Depression, which is likely the determining factor just as with the fast train services like the four New Haven freight trains and the CNJ Bullet introduced by 1930) it can't have been difficult to build a connection from the NYCR toward Bay Ridge. And as Mr. Klepper pointed out, only the innovation of sprung third-rail shoes that could deal with both overrunning and underrunning contact kept New Haven passenger electrics from making the switch from third rail to overhead 11kV just as they would do at New Rochelle eastbound.
Of course, the completion of the 11kV electrification of the entire NYP plant ought to have made getting trains through to Bay Ridge much simpler, were the specific demand for boat trains still effective by then...
Then, instead of using the "Montauk" branch, which was never (or not yet been?) electrified by either third rail or catenary, they could use the crossover that did exist between the frieght and passenger tracks on the Queens approach to the Bridge, a crossover that has been missing for years.
There are no LIRR plans to electrify the line, which has lost its long-term two passenger trains each way rush hour service and has been single-tracked. But who knows what commuter demands may arise in the future?
Boston's T has returned passenger service to a similar all-within-the-city branch.
Semi-useful map just appeared buried way down in this, from a Trains forum thread:
https://www.njtpa.org/NJTPA/media/Documents/Get-Involved/Info-Resources/Calendar/NJTPA-Complete-Meeting-Slides-FIC041921.pdf
(scroll down to the carfloat operation)
Can someone identify the location of the Bay Ridge liner piers here?
There are accurate maps of the whole area provided as displays in the restored CNJ Liberty Terminal, where I photographed them for reference, but those are worthless for posting here. Can someone provide better scans?
Do these maps help at all?
https://mapcollections.brooklynhistory.org/map/railroad-terminal-map-of-new-york-harbor/
https://nynjr.com/route-map/
First one might have useful information, but the link doesn't have adequate resolution to zoom in enough to see. It doesn't seem as detailed as the maps in Liberty Terminal. I'll bet there's at least one historic site that has them; compare the Princeton repository of Jersey City plat maps in the elevated-trolley-line thread.
The second is a direct link to what appears to be the same map in the report, but at smaller size. It will have to be marked up either to show track details or piers; note that it does not show the 'passenger' line or connections from Penn Station at all!
Note the indicated routing of the 'end of the Montauk branch' line here. I came across this by accident one night in the '80s, complete with then-working PRR position-light signals, and couldn't for the life of me figure out what it was. The question now is how this would have been accessed by a DD1-hauled train east of the East River tunnels, and what kind of motive power would then have pulled it through to the Bay Ridge pier transfer point. There must have been some sort of 'boat-train' station facility there for the 1930 service... does Mike have a source with pictures?
This might have been a nifty service for one of those European side-door compartment trains, like the ones used for Fall River boat trains in the olden days. Ship passengers wouldn't have 'carry-on' luggage, so the train would need only regular baggage cars; presumably luggage that cleared customs could be sorted by ticketed destination for easy identification at stations and handled via baggage car(s). This lets a great number of passengers easily on and off a train in minimal time to minimize dwell either at Bay Ridge or other 'majority' stops like NYP.
Some more map fun courtesy of Mike.
https://mapcollections.brooklynhistory.org/map/part-of-the-maps-of-new-york-connecticut-rhode-island-and-massachusetts-showing-the-route-of-the-long-island-rail-road-in-connection-with-the-new-york-providence-boston-and-other-rail-roads/
https://mapcollections.brooklynhistory.org/map/south-part-of-oyster-bay-queens-co/
DD-1s would handlle the trains Penn. Sta. - Sunnyside. Either DD-1s or steam Sunnysidr - L. I. City pushing. L. I. City - Bay Ridge steam. Steam would probably be one the hundreds of LIRR G-5 heavy ten-wheelers or possibly one of their very few K-4s.
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The Bay Ridge piers are /were numbered from the south, starting with Pier 1. It seems Pier 4 is still there
https://goo.gl/maps/x4wSH2SjhFfNqqWR6
The earliest I can find on Historic Aerials is 1954 (I used 'Bay Ridge Brooklyn, panned and zoomed on the current map, then selected the year). All the piers were still there at that date. The west end of Bay Ridge yard (with the carfloat slips) is visible not far south of Pier 4, but I cannot see any dedicated rail access to that pier that would 'match' what the 1930 service would offer (ideally onto the pier itself?)
It seems clear that the 'best' route would involve the New Haven route, via the Connecting Railroad and then the 'freight' branch to Bay Ridge. Presumably the route south of the 'turn' was 11kV electrified roughly at the time the freight tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge were -- surely that would have been complete by 1930 -- which would seem to indicate a New Haven motor put on at Penn Station and taking the train all the way to the Bay Ridge area. But...
... if there had been a direct track to Pier 4, it would likely not have been electrified, which would make a power switch (to steam, from DD1 and perhaps L5) likely at some of the logical places mentioned. The relatively long time quoted for service to the ships argues strongly both for a complex route and for a non-rapid power swap and quite possibly some backing move(s).
Looking at the map even as late as 1954, you can see why folks were enthusiastic about extending passenger service via B&O/RDG/CNJ to start liner service from the 'other side' of the Narroes in this same general time period. It is possible that, with the intensive grade separation for SIRT, enough 'window' between SIRT trains could be opened up for direct passenger trains from the west across the Arthur Kill bridge (which I believe was full double-track in those days).
And, once again, you can see from the maps how a Narrows tunnel extension would tie into the Bay Ridge trackage...
Overmoda New Haven motor put on at Penn Station
Don't see any advantage to turning northwest from Sunnyside and changing ends at whatever (hand-throw?) crossover existed between the passenger tracks and the freight line from Hell Gate to Bay Ridge. The DD1 can back the train Sunnyside to LIRR Long Island City, then steam takes it east on LIRR Montauk to the line to Bay Ridge.
OvermodIt seems clear that the 'best' route would involve the New Haven route, via the Connecting Railroad and then the 'freight' branch to Bay Ridge. Presumably the route south of the 'turn' was 11kV electrified roughly at the time the freight tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge were -- surely that would have been complete by 1930 --
Hell Gate to Sunnyside electrified 1918, to Bay Ridge 1927. (Middleton)
timzFar as we know, NH electrics never ran to NY Penn on third rail. NH passenger trains changed engines at Sunnyside until Penn got catenary.
Don't see any advantage to turning northwest from Sunnyside and changing ends at whatever (hand-throw?) crossover existed between the passenger tracks and the freight line from Hell Gate to Bay Ridge.
I am not sure what connections existed in 1930 at Fresh Pond Junction, where the NYCR is at higher grade than the Montauk branch. Presumably there was an interchange track; I see accounts that say troop trains were routed that way, but absent a detailed track map or photographs I can't say if that were preferable to the above. Educate me with details, please.
No interlockings between SS2 at the east of Sunnyside, and SS3 at the west end of Oak Point Yard -- right? So how to get from the passenger line to the freight line, other than thru a hand-throw crossover? (Mr Klepper mentioned a crossover somewhere -- I have no knowledge of it. Guess they'd need two crossovers, since they would need to run around the train.)
timzNo interlockings between SS2 at the east of Sunnyside, and SS3 at the west end of Oak Point Yard -- right? So how to get from the passenger line to the freight line, other than thru a hand-throw crossover?
This all might have been still more interesting had the Narrows tunnel been built, and coordination made between the B&O (which was controlled by PRR at the time) and the New Haven and LIRR for some of the transit and passenger traffic not needing to use Exchange Place ferries or Penn Station via Newark and the North River tunnels for access to lower Manhattan points. This would be only about six years after B&O lost their USRA access into Penn Station from the west.
Until 1931, at least, New Haven trains into Penn were still loosing their AC power at Harold and were taken 8into Penn by PRR DD-1s and crews.
so, I;m reasonably certain the actual route was via the Montauk and Fresh Pond Juction. THe proper connecting track at Fresh Pond was in placeif my memory of track maps in the "Dashing Dan" series of past Electriv Railroaders Associations Bulletins is correct. I believe it may exist today,
Again, Fresh Pond is where CSX, P&W, and CP (D&H) interchange NY&A today.
The PRR probably would not wish to involve the NYNH&H but keep it in the family, with the LIRR being owned by them at the time.
daveklepperThe PRR probably would not wish to involve the NYNH&H but keep it in the family, with the LIRR being owned by them at the time.
Where the fun comes in here is that I don't see evidence of a way to turn steam power in the Bay Ridge area easily. One wonders if some of Steins' interest in bidirectional steam power with truck-mounted engines might be to give reasonably quick service to trains of this kind...
Incidentally, is there a reference indicating whether any L5s worked through to Harold (with through trains) in these years?
From what I can see on topo maps, a train coming out of the East River Tunnels from NYP: they could stop in Sunnyside, and back up to LI City, and then go forward down the Montauk Branch; or they apparently could go thru the balloon track, head back thru the yard, and take a wye connection that would get them headed east on the Montauk Branch. There is/was a connection at Fresh Pond that gets them southbound onto the NY Connecting.
https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_browse.pl?id=218f5c767eca46c0ada3d53783c64446
MidlandMikeor they apparently could go thru the balloon track, head back thru the yard, and...
https://goo.gl/maps/CDCYm9rEHG12Psy8A
which I think would require running thru the Sunnyside freight yard. Looking at the west end
Pennsylvania Railroad Sunnyside Yards | Hagley Digital Archives
it's doubtful they could get from the west end of the passenger yard to the overpass, but if they can get from the loop to the east end of the freight yard it would work.
Midland, you win the prize. I'd forgotten the wye connection. But steam would be essential on the Montauk, so use of the Sunnyside ballon isn't likely. The DD-1 comes off one end, and the G-5 or K4 is attached at the other end.
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