B&O Special Train to Staten Island, March 1930

[Overmod]

It took me a while to actually look up the somewhat tortuous history of the massive grade-separation of SIRT -- it is connected with Hylan's Holes and the manipulation to prevent the PRR tunnel between Greenville and Bay Ridge.  In the end there wound up being no tunnel at all, only Bob Moses.

[daveklepper]

And to retirn to Staten Island.  I think this is the old Grant City Station.   If someone has other information, please correct me.

[daveklepper]

But according to a previous poster, the turntable, when it existed, was somewhat west of the limits of the photo-map, at 8th Avenue, but it was removed by 1930.

What I think happened was that the train reversed off the pier, rested on a through siding long enough to handle it, the locomotive ran reverse to either the junction with the Manhattan Beach Branch --- if the wye therem still existed, or to Fresh Pond Junction and Yard, where there was and still is a wye, reversed and again ran tender-first to rejoin the train, then backed it onto the pier.

[Overmod]

timz

Dunno if the New York City DOITT map is working for others -- not working for me, now. It has/had 1924 aerials that would show any turntable at Bay Ridge or elsewhere.

I get as far as selecting the 1924 aerials in 'map type' at upper right and the system correctly searches for and finds 'Bay Ridge'.  It is truly awful to navigate the controls on an iPhone; I get the impression there are features that want to be helpful but don't know enough GIS to actually be helpful... but they shoulder out more intuitive navigation of the interface.

Irritatingly the 'borough view' aerial is provided with crappy resolution -- just the 'pane' with that neighborhood, it appears -- and if there is a higher-res version that loads only when you zoom in, I can't get it and stay in the Bay Ridge areas of interest at the same time.  I can make out the piers -- interestingly, fewer than I see in 1954 -- and I can see the general track layout, but only because I know what I'm looking for.

There does not appear to be any room for a turntable in this view, or anything that appears 'round' of necessary dimensions to turn something like a G5, which would be the minimum length 'passenger' steam locomotive I'd expect on one of the boat trains.

The base URL that's as far as I got is

http://maps.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/

and you enter the area of interest up top and then choose your view from 'map type' at the top.  1924 is the first choice that drops down.

 

[daveklepper]

That all NYNH&N freight power was AC  needs some modification for exceptions.  They had a small fleet of 60V DC trolley-pole steeplecabs, classed Y-something, and here is the kind of place where they operated:

The "Manufactures Railway" yard off Forbs Avenue, New Haven.  Forbs Avenue had regular Cnnecticut Company streetcar service to Branfrord and Maumaugin until summer 1946 and rush hour streetcars as far as East Haven through summer 1947.  Regardless of the specific operation, if memory is correct, the switchers were labeled New Haven.

[daveklepper]

New Haven electric freight power and AC switchers, and the "stremlined" freight EF-3s modified with boilers for passenger service to Penn Station, never had third-rail shoes or DC controls.  Starting with the original electrification, Woodlawn - New Rochelle.

And the NYNH&H never handled freight itself on NYCentral tracks.  There may still be the freight interchange siding at Woodlawn.

The Bay Ridge Electrification was paid for, installed, and maintained by the New Haven, even though the tracks were owned by the LIRR.

This was the second time others paid and maintained wire over LIRR-owned track.

The Brooklyn United elevated system paid for crossovers near Kings Highway, to connect the Brighton Line with the LIRR Manhattan Beach line, when both were on the surface, and installed and maintained 600V trilley wire, so elevated trains could serve the Manhattan Beach Oriental Hotel (and possibly the Jockey Club as well).

At  the tme there was much cooperation between LIRR and BU, including steam LIRR trains from Bay Ridge to Coney Island via the Avenue H interchange connection to the still on-surface Culver Line, tracks used by streetcars, open-platform elevated trains, and seasonal LIRR steam trains.

[MidlandMike]

daveklepper

The railrad from Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge is not and never ever was the New York Connecting Railroad.  It has been owned by the LIRR ever since they bought it from the Manhattan Beach Railroad.

I wonder if the LIRR ever considered running 3rd rail rather than the cat. Although NH locos were equiped for cat and both overrunning and underrunning 3rd rail, I  understand they ran better on cat.

[MidlandMike]

Overmod

full double-track transition from the Montauk branch up onto the NYCR in the correct direction in 1923 that was later apparently removed.

That transition is still there at Fresh Pond, although no longer double track.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/69-3+66th+St,+Ridgewood,+NY+11385/@40.7077072,-73.8907769,276m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x89c24fa5d33f083b:0xc80b8f06e177fe62!2sNew+York,+NY!3b1!8m2!3d40.7127753!4d-74.0059728!3m4!1s0x89c25e80862580c3:0x5fe52cab136140fc!8m2!3d40.7049396!4d-73.8896515?hl=en

 

[Overmod]

There are the missing pieces: transverse track across the near ends of the Government piers accessible straight in, and a full double-track transition from the Montauk branch up onto the NYCR in the correct direction in 1923 that was later apparently removed.

[daveklepper]

Here are two scans that might help.  The author of the articles in the Electric Railroaders Association Bulletin, George Chiassin, noted that New Haven freight steam power may have had to run in reverse back to The Bronx's Oak Point Yard.

 

Should say Eastv New York and Bay Ridge!

[Overmod]

daveklepper

The railroad from Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge is not and never ever was the New York Connecting Railroad.  It has been owned by the LIRR ever since they bought it from the Manhattan Beach Railroad.

I know this -- and the commercial maps do in fact show it (I went back and enlarged the relevant image on my phone) -- but most of the early maps of the "New Haven branch" show it as one heavy line (as I recall, in some cases, actually labeled NYCR) all the way from the connection north/east of the Hell Gate Bridge to Bay Ridge.  Only later were the maps revised so the heavy line turned toward Harold at Bowery Bay, and the line south of there indicated as less important.

[daveklepper]

The LIRR may not have required the turntable after 1928, and New Haven freight was mostly electric.  Not once, but several times, I did see LIRR local freight, 2-8-0s and 4-6-0s running tender-first.  I also saw, at least once, an LIRR freight on the Long Beach Branch headed by a DD-1.

While the PRR "Boat Train" was unloading and loading, it was perfectly possible for the LIRR engine crew to run light in reverse to Sunnyside or Jamaica and return.  

While owned by the LIRR, the Manhattan Beach branch also served The Jockey Club, a private racetrack not far from Kings Highway, with a short branch.  Specials were run both from Bay Ridge and Long Island City.

 

[daveklepper]

The railrad from Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge is not and never ever was the New York Connecting Railroad.  It has been owned by the LIRR ever since they bought it from the Manhattan Beach Railroad.  The original line ran from Bay Ridge to a point just east of the Brighton Beach RoW, today's B and Q rapid transit lines, then turned south and paralled the Brooklyn and Brighton Beach RoW, then turned somewhat east to what was then called Manhatten Beach on the shore, where the railroad management built a large hotel.  They handled friegth, but passenger service was the main purpose.  I think the line was originally narrow-gauge!  They then put in a wye where the line turned south and built the line to connect with the LIRR at Fresh Pond to provide service to the beach from LIRR points, changing trains at Fresh Pond.  Then the LIRR bought the line and standard-gauged it.  Passenger service continued from Bay Ridge (with ferries to Manhattan and Staten Island), and summer passenger service from Long Island City, using the connecting track the subject train needed at Fresh Pond.

When the Brighton wn Iss modernized, made part of the Brooklyn United elevated system, with the cut north of Avenue H and the embankment and elevated structure south, the embankment was constructed for six tracks, not four, and inclulded the LIRR's Manhattan Beach line.  Remnants can be seen at embankment bridge abutments today, although the embankment itself is mostly narrowed by housing construction.  The Q Avenue J Station is one location to see this. 

Popularity of other beaches served by the LIRR, low fare rapid-transit via four subway lines, through streetcars, etc. to Coney Island and Canarsie Beach, and the hotel fire led to the Manhattan Beach branch abandonmenet and end of passenger service and ferry to Bay Ridge.   New Haven freight operations started only after HG Bridge's opening, and the LIRR continued ownership, local frieght operation, and all switching.  Today,  New York and Atlantic is the only operator of the line, and Bush Terrminal does the switching at Bay Ridge. 

[timz]

The Gate crossovers were built by Amtrak in the 1980s or 1990s -- SS2 was further south, near Woodside Ave.

The north overpass in https://goo.gl/maps/CDCYm9rEHG12Psy8A came from the north side of the freight yard; the souther overpass, that's still there (?), arose between the passenger mains -- until about 1990, a westbound train on the LIRR express main would end up on the freight overpass if it ran straight thru Harold interlocking.

Dunno if the New York City DOITT map is working for others -- not working for me, now. It has/had 1924 aerials that would show any turntable at Bay Ridge or elsewhere.

NYCityMap • DoITT • City-Wide GIS

[rcdrye]

There was an engine house and turntable between 7th and 8th Avenues south of 61st Street, where the N 8th Avenue subway station is located.  Notes on the map for Fort Hamilton Parkway to 5th Avenue indicate that the turntable was removed in 1928.

http://www.trainsarefun.comm/lirr/bayridge/bayridge.htm 

[daveklepper]

Somewhere in my collection of past Electric Railroaders Association Bulletins, I should have the needed Bay Ridge track map, showing Bush Terminal, LIRR (NHYNH&H) and South Brookiyn.  Possibly one of Fresh Pond Junction as well.  I'll make the effort to try and find them and scan.

I'm sure the moves were pure PRR-LIRR and would not involve NYNH&H or SB\B&QT\BMT.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Regarding engine turn-around at Bay Ridge...

There has to be something, but what was it and where in the Bay Ridge 'plant' was it located?

I see nothing in the 1954 aerial, which is the earliest I have yet found for the area, that shows either a turntable or a location of a suitable wye with tail track long enough.

I do note that the Greenwood spur of the South Brooklyn goes straight to the edge of the 39th St. terminal, closer to Pier 4 than Bay Ridge, and that there is a connection to the 'Bay Ridge Division' track but only through a half-wye to grade from NB NYCR to SB/EB South Brooklyn at the interchange point mentioned, which doesn't help turn a train of any interest.  A move from Fresh Pond onto the NYCR would have to run past the connection and then reverse-move and cross over to get to the South Brooklyn, assuming it could run on that line at all, then proceed forward and switch to the Greenwood spur.  But backing out only allows the consist to turn back toward Bay Ridge on the NYCR, so no help on either route there. 

What we need is someone like Tim Z with a track chart from that era (perhaps post-1927) that shows the features in detail.

[daveklepper]

More photos from the 1948 Stayen Island fan trip

[daveklepper]

Regarding engine turn-around at Bay Ridge, it must have existed at the time, because the original railroad there was steam, the LIRR ran steam on local freights there regularly until dieselization, and the New Haven steam after Hell-Gate-Bridge construction until electrififcation and occasinally afterward, when short of electric locomotives.

[MidlandMike]

timz

No interlockings between SS2 at the east of Sunnyside, and SS3 at the west end of Oak Point Yard -- right?

Is SS2 also known as Gate crossover on the the passenger line just south of the split between it and the freight line?  On a PRR map, the split is shown as Sunnyside Junction.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Long+Island+City,+Queens,+NY/@40.7587086,-73.9047712,138m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c2592bc7bab159:0x56156cc4c5ee8e31!8m2!3d40.744679!4d-73.9485424

 

[MidlandMike]

timz

I forgot about that possibility -- dunno if it was a possibility. You mean crossing this overpass southward

https://goo.gl/maps/CDCYm9rEHG12Psy8A

Yes, this is the connector I was referring to.  Does that single track connector bridge emerge between passenger tracks?

[rcdrye]

Looks like the north end of the connector and much of the remaining freight yard were sacrificed for the East Side Access to Grand Central.

[timz]

Far as we know, the only way to go around the loop and get onto the Montauk cutoff overpass (without a backup) was to enter the freight yard at the end of the loop, east of the 39th St overpass, and run along the north side of the freight yard. If you stayed on passenger tracks you couldn't reach the Cutoff from the loop.

43cur1dam3121.jpg (4987×1554) (redd.it)

[Overmod]

I think this is the missing piece:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IKYy1KNnt_8

Note that they say it was 'active' into the 1970s but abandoned today; it should be easy to identify how this tied into the plant at Sunnyside from track maps (which I think timz has).

[daveklepper]

Midland, you win the prize.  I'd forgotten the wye connection.  But steam would be essential on the Montauk, so use of the Sunnyside ballon isn't likely.  The DD-1 comes off one  end, and the G-5 or K4 is  attached at the other end.

[timz]

MidlandMike

or they apparently could go thru the balloon track, head back thru the yard, and...

I forgot about that possibility -- dunno if it was a possibility. You mean crossing this overpass southward

https://goo.gl/maps/CDCYm9rEHG12Psy8A

which I think would require running thru the Sunnyside freight yard. Looking at the west end

Pennsylvania Railroad Sunnyside Yards | Hagley Digital Archives

it's doubtful they could get from the west end of the passenger yard to the overpass, but if they can get from the loop to the east end of the freight yard it would work.

[MidlandMike]

From what I can see on topo maps, a train coming out of the East River Tunnels from NYP: they could stop in Sunnyside, and back up to LI City, and then go forward down the Montauk Branch; or they apparently could go thru the balloon track, head back thru the yard, and take a wye connection that would get them headed east on the Montauk Branch.  There is/was a connection at Fresh Pond that gets them southbound onto the NY Connecting.

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/ht-bin/tv_browse.pl?id=218f5c767eca46c0ada3d53783c64446

 

[Overmod]

daveklepper

The PRR probably would not wish to involve the NYNH&H but keep it in the family, with the LIRR being owned by them at the time.

I was presuming that the route was exactly as you say, largely for this reason: it also appears to be nominally somewhat shorter if there are facilitated points at Sunnyside for the power exchange and at Fresh Pond for a direct diversion in both running directions between the NYCR and the Montauk line going to the west.  That's going to involve at least a pair of crossovers if the north-to-west move is to be made without reversing, as I suspect any connection at Fresh Pond that could handle normal-length passenger equipment going 'back' from the piers to Sunnyside would need a considerable jughandle-style access track to 'reach'.

Where the fun comes in here is that I don't see evidence of a way to turn steam power in the Bay Ridge area easily.  One wonders if some of Steins' interest in bidirectional steam power with truck-mounted engines might be to give reasonably quick service to trains of this kind...

Incidentally, is there a reference indicating whether any L5s worked through to Harold (with through trains) in these years?

[daveklepper]

Until 1931, at least, New Haven trains into Penn were still loosing their AC power at Harold and were taken 8into Penn by PRR DD-1s and crews.

 

so, I;m reasonably certain the actual route was via the Montauk and Fresh Pond Juction.  THe proper connecting track at Fresh Pond was in placeif my memory of track maps in the "Dashing Dan" series of past Electriv Railroaders Associations Bulletins is correct.  I believe it may exist today,

Again, Fresh Pond is where CSX, P&W, and CP (D&H) interchange NY&A today.

The PRR probably would not wish to involve the NYNH&H but keep it in the family, with the LIRR being owned by them at the time.