5) Italian 'out there' #2 A Cab forward no doubt... stack in the back of the tender with big connecting pipe. You would think more railroads would develop Cab forwards.
Forty three of these locomotives (in their original form, saturated four cylinder compounds) were built from 1902. They all carried four tonnes of coal in a bunker built over the firebox. The bunker was only on the left side, with a small water tank on the right side. This allowed the locomotive to operate for short periods without the tender. Most Italian tender locomotives carried only six tonnes of coal.
There was a similarly arranged 0-10-0 class 470 which had a cab end bunker with a water tender. It had a cab more like the usual tank locomotive. there were 143 of those.
Peter
[quote user="M636C"]Forty three of these locomotives (in their original form, saturated four cylinder compounds)...
And not just any old four-cylinder compounds, like Vauclain x2 or coal. These were Plancher system compounds ... both HP on one side, and both LP on the other. (I have tried to rationalize this by thinking of it as 'two von Borries compounds in quadrature eliminating the starting issues' but that's only a rationalization. Each pair of cylinders had only one piston valve admitting steam to opposite ends of its respective cylinders.
It seems obvious that this would require the same careful attention to IP injection that a von Borries does to run smoothly, but now with two valves and not just one, kind of like the separate cutoff on a de Glehn-du Bousquet except with both sides independently adjustable. This would have been a magnificent tweak, except you can imagine the amount of continuous fiddling required in the course of a fast run with one...
Did not help that the inertial masses were asymmetrical and there was little compensation at the back end of the chassis to control the induced hunting for which these Muccas were supposedly famous. This could likely have been addressed by the German expedient of pushing the lead tender truck up as far as posslble and installing some effective kind of radial buffer ... but this was a test engine, perhaps on an obsolescent class, and didn't last long.
This is the only example of FS class 672, astoundingly enough built from a saturated engine (one of the class 670s) not one of the 29 (in class 671) subsequently superheated. Don't let the photo quality fool you; this was done in 1936. Douglas Self (of course!) has a picture of this as it came to be 'streamlined' toward the end of the 1930s.
Here's a diagram of what's going on, which I think some will find helpful:
(Compare the smaller cylinders visible on this side.) On test, this apparently demonstrated a saving of 22%, although it would be interesting to see if this reflects the unsaturated numbers for a 670 instead of the more sensible thermodynamic performance of a 671.
Of course many FS locomotives would have good working success using the idea ... with the preheaters carried in more sensible locations! ... all the way to the 1970s.
Most Italian tender locomotives carried only six tonnes of coal.
You mean 'locomotives with tenders' and not the German meaning of the term, right?
Overmod Here's a diagram of what's going on, which I think some will find helpful:
More:
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
zugmann Shinji! Get in the train!
Shinji! Get in the train!
There's just no way to follow that without sounding like a whiny wimp!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Penny Trains zugmann Shinji! Get in the train! There's just no way to follow that without sounding like a whiny wimp!
Yikes! If I saw something like that stalking my layout I'd have to go running for Grandpa's 12 gauge shotgun!
None of my military hardware would be any good, it's too skinny to bayonet!
1) Wheels on wheels on wheels ... something seems terribly silly about this .. just put 'em on the darn track. Tie them together with string or something.. you know String Lining.
2) Those crazy Brits at it again. Now what in blazes is this all about. What is all that stuff between the rails?
3) A New York Central thingiemajigger. Maybe they were inspired by Lionel's rocket launcher?
4) It's Japanese ( I think) , that and the bell are the only nice things I can say about this. It's a strange thing for sure.
5) Saving the best for last.
Maybe not a strange thing but it would be today. I have zero doubt that I, Miningman, am the King Of Pickles on this Forum. When shopping, at least 4 to 5 jars go into the cart at minimum. All manner and type of pickle. Every 6 months I have a new #1 favourite. After a long run Strubs Full Sour has lost the crown to Bicks Polskie Orgiski's, but I buy them all, sweet, sandwich sliced, hot, spicy, Kosher, not Kosher, low salt... all of it all the time. Every week.
When the Cardiologist found a growth between the left and right sides of the old ticker I told him I knew what it is. He looked a bit taken aback and said "what?". Told him " it's a pickle". Turns out he was a Vlasic Dills fan.
Keep these cars rolling and spot one in the backyard. PTC to me is Pickle Train Control. PSR is Pickle Scheduled Railroading. Now you know what's really going on.
[quote user="Miningman"]2) Those crazy Brits at it again. Now what in blazes is this all about. What is all that stuff between the rails? [quote]
Could it be a center 3rd rail?
[quote user="MidlandMike"]
[quote user="Miningman"]2) Those crazy Brits at it again. Now what in blazes is this all about. What is all that stuff between the rails?
Bloody right! Who says three-rail O gauge trains aren't prototypical?
And I got a K-Line Heinz pickle car that's almost a dead ringer for Miningman's prototype! I'm a pickle fancier myself, Heinz, Vlasic, Mt. Olive, Claussen, Boar's Head, they're all good!
Anyone remember "Manhattan" brand dill pickles from long ago? A staple in my grandparents house! I remember Grandma's pickle and black olive snack plates like it was yesterday!
CN has some cut down intermodal containers to haul wheelsets around. They just ride the top position on a doublestack well car, not on a trailer while on the train.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Actually, there are four rails. As well as the centre rail there is a fourth on the outside, although it is not continuous at turnouts. That fourth rail can be located on either side (but not normally both at the same time as far as I know). Others can probably explain why the London Underground chose to complicate the power supply method. One rail feeds the power and the other is the return, plus the pair of running rails. Perhaps way back in the early days of electricy it was not realised that the running rails could provide the return?
John
[quote user="cx500"]
Miningman2) Those crazy Brits at it again. Now what in blazes is this all about. What is all that stuff between the rails? Could it be a center 3rd rail? Actually, there are four rails. As well as the centre rail there is a fourth on the outside, although it is not continuous at turnouts. That fourth rail can be located on either side (but not normally both at the same time as far as I know). Others can probably explain why the London Underground chose to complicate the power supply method. One rail feeds the power and the other is the return, plus the pair of running rails. Perhaps way back in the early days of electricity it was not realised that the running rails could provide the return? John
Actually, there are four rails. As well as the centre rail there is a fourth on the outside, although it is not continuous at turnouts. That fourth rail can be located on either side (but not normally both at the same time as far as I know). Others can probably explain why the London Underground chose to complicate the power supply method. One rail feeds the power and the other is the return, plus the pair of running rails. Perhaps way back in the early days of electricity it was not realised that the running rails could provide the return?
Running rails had been used for current return prior to the London Underground application. There was particular concern to limit stray currents in the below ground utilities (water and gas pipes, power and telephone cables) given that the tracks were below street level with such utilities both above and below.
Power is drawn from a conventional outside third rail but an additional centre rail is provided for the return current.
The track illustrated was for the so called surface lines, the former Metropolitan and District lines which started with steam power (with condensing locomotives to minimise smoke). At the time of electrification it was felt that the cost of upgrading the running rails to carry the return current to the required standard would cost more than providing the fourth rail.
The deeper (tube) lines also used the four rail system and there are some lines where both the large (surface) trains and small (tube) trains use the same tracks. The platform heights have to be set at a compromise level to suit the different floor heights, but the electrical supply is the same.
Miningman 4) It's Japanese ( I think) , that and the bell are the only nice things I can say about this. It's a strange thing for sure.
Hey, at least it is streamlined...
西武山口線, steam-powered (01:54 | 06:37):
The center rail for a return line is similar electrically to the streetcars with double overhead in Cincinnati.
Miningman3) A New York Central thingiemajigger. Maybe they were inspired by Lionel's rocket launcher?
rcdryeThe engines used in the M-497 jet RDC tests were purchased for the snow blower program.
At least, that was the excuse.
You have to ask, with an appropriately straight face, why they bought the pylon, fairings, and 'the rest of the assembly' too.
I do have little doubt that the engines eventually did wind up as blowers...
OvermodYou have to ask, with an appropriately straight face, why they bought the pylon, fairings, and 'the rest of the assembly' too.
There is a story here. The Centipede is missing its semi-permanently coupled twin. Well ok that happened. So what's going on?
Part 2 of the story is in the background. A very long line of Pennsy tenders. What's going on there? That's one heck of a line.
No date given. Perhaps we can narrow it down to a range with the paint scheme on the Centipede. It has the simplified single stripe and looks a bit worn down. The tenders don't look all beat up and faded lettering, in fact they seem in pretty good condition.
I know the Centipedes ended up in Horseshoe Curve pusher service. Possibly they've been split up to facilitate the same?
I can't help but think those tenders are due for a date with the scrapper, or possible alteration to some other service. A number of 'roads used "orphaned" tenders as portable water tanks for various purposes.
First off thanks for the response Wayne. Every video I've seen of the Centipedes in pusher service have the two coupled together. However, it did remind me that they were used in hump service and that might be a problem if two were coupled.
I think that paint scheme was much later in their service time. Perhaps even after steam was already in scrap lines. Usually the tender goes along with the final ride. I do believe you might be correct about keeping these for the MOW department as water cars.
Either that or they are just out of the tender shop for use with steam or, as mentioned, newly reconditioned for water use in company service.
Pennsy's Centipedes couldn't operate independently (at least not pulling anything), so this is probably a shop apron shot.
Miningman No date given. Perhaps we can narrow it down to a range with the paint scheme on the Centipede. It has the simplified single stripe and looks a bit worn down. The tenders don't look all beat up and faded lettering; in fact, they seem in pretty good condition.
No date given. Perhaps we can narrow it down to a range with the paint scheme on the Centipede. It has the simplified single stripe and looks a bit worn down. The tenders don't look all beat up and faded lettering; in fact, they seem in pretty good condition.
Look at this poor PRR (Two-Head) Centipede, who got chopped into half before execution in the early 1960s; that was only a few years before this flagship railroad of America came to an end... Remember, they were the crucial members of the leading power of Pennsy's crack trains, they were the chosen "one" to show off their size, beauty, speed, and power to Pennsy's rival... they were lucky to have a second chance and had the flexibility to be derated for various non-passenger service roles.
After working secondary trains for a while (mostly Harrisburg-St. Louis) the Centipedes were tried on Horseshoe. After one jackknife and a lot of trouble with traction motors (the blower ducts didn't line up well on curves) they ran out their service lives there, derated to 2500HP each, and getting re-classed from BP60 to BH50 into the bargain.
rcdrye Pennsy's Centipedes couldn't operate independently (at least not pulling anything), so this is probably a shop apron shot.
They couldn't? Well, that was pretty dumb on Baldwin's part. One of the attractions of diesel power was units could be added or removed depending on the work needed to be done, and controlled by one engineer as well.
I would assume that the PRR Centipedes were linked by drawbars for whatever reason. Centipedes on SAL and NdeM could operate separately.
Drawbars appear to have been PRR's choice. All other centipedes had rear couplers. They were ordered before the labor agreement allowing diesels in MU to be treated as a single locomotive for wage purposes was finalized.
Interesting that AT&SF rejected drawbars on FTs. The Photo-of-the-day from 11/20/2019 shows FTs in what would have been an impossible consist with the drawbar-equipped units, as both B units are "backwards".
rcdrye Drawbars appear to have been PRR's choice. All other centipedes had rear couplers. They were ordered before the labor agreement allowing diesels in MU to be treated as a single locomotive for wage purposes was finalized. Interesting that AT&SF rejected drawbars on FTs. The Photo-of-the-day from 11/20/2019 shows FTs in what would have been an impossible consist with the drawbar-equipped units, as both B units are "backwards".
No.
The B unis in that shot (110 climbing Tehachapi) are the "right way around" for drawbar coupled units.
In fact. I didn't think they got as far as 110 with two cab units...
Santa Fe realised the problem with the crews and most of their early FT (or technically FS) units were delivered A+B+B+B so there was only one cab to be mannned. After the agreement with the unions they ordered a batch of A units to get back to A+B+B+A sets.
But standard drawbar FT units ran "back to back" as shown in the Tehachapi photo, with the blank area replacing the cab at the coupler end.
Of course, Santa Fe FTs could have their B units in any possible arrangement given they were all coupled together.
I was looking at the Chicago Baldwin Centipede photo posted by Mr Jones. I've never seen an RPO in Fleet of Modernism colours as shown there. That car has clearly been retouched, maybe more so than the locomotives as has the whole train... Someone in PR was getting carried away, since even when they were all in the right colours, the cars didn't usually match that well.
M636C I was looking at the Chicago Baldwin Centipede photo posted by Mr Jones. I've never seen an RPO in Fleet of Modernism colours as shown there. That car has clearly been retouched, maybe more so than the locomotives as has the whole train... Someone in PR was getting carried away, since even when they were all in the right colours, the cars didn't usually match that well. Peter
You are right, Peter. That photo was heavily touched up as you can see the number of the gold strips on the passenger car's body, and the spacing between the strips are all wrong. We can tell the differences by comparing those passenger cars behind the Centipede with the dining car and coaches that parked in the yard. There was at least two RPO was painted in Fleet of Modernism for the Broadway Limited, they were two Class BM70nb (Nos.6529,8616), but I don't think they had streamlined skirt like that RPO in the pic. Both 6529 and 8616 seldom appear in books and photos, which I believe they only attached to the Broadway Limited consist briefly for publicity purposes and were painted standard PRR Tuscan red not long after.
You want fleet of modernism? Well here you go...about as modern as Pennsy got before entering the event horizon into nothingness.
Is it even lettered Pennsylvannia along the side? Who knows, too dirty to tell. Looks like everyone from management to union has thrown in the towel... morale must have been pretty low by this point.
Surprised they kept the Keystone.. at least the headlight works.
Vince, that late in the era, or as late as it seems to be, there may very well be no "Pennsylvania" lettered on the locomotive sides. I enlarged the photo and I can't see it either. All I see is filth.
It did trigger a memory though. I pulled out my copy of Don Ball's "America's Railroads," and there on page 77 is a post-merger Penn Central pair of E8's pulling a New York & Long Branch commuter train over a bridge in Red Bank NJ. The locomotives are a solid Tuscan Red with a small "PC" on the side. Since the whole train is in Tuscan Red Don calls it "The Rustoleum Limited!"
It does kinda look like a shade of Rustoleum red!
I couldn't find the picture on line anywhere, but I found a picture of some PC Tuscan E8's. Nasty!
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=811630
Wayne
The two Tuscan units are E7s
The E8 is black...
Remind me of a couple of Rock Island E7s I saw in 1977.
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