seppburgh2A little off topic, but why are there no more World Fairs? Was at the NYC and the Montreal fairs when I was a kid. Sad to think what kids are missing out on.
The next one is in Dubai: http://www.expomuseum.com/2020/
The last one was inb Kazakhstan: http://www.expomuseum.com/2017/
The last fairs in the USA were 1982 Knoxville Tenn. and 1984 New Orleans.
I went to this one:
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Ah, the 1939 New York World's Fair, the greatest world's fair, at least according to Mom, she was there! And more than once too!
I'll never forget the ride home from the 1964 World's Fair, and Mom saying "Oh, that was fun, but the 1939 fair was a LOT better!"
"Awwwww, Mommmmmmm...."
Kind of makes sense though, 1939 was the greatest year for movies too, "The Watershed Year" it's been called by film historians. Those same historians say you could make a career out of studying the films released by Hollywood in 1939.
Let's see, "The Wizard of Oz," "Gone With The Wind," "Stagecoach," "Wuthering Heights," "Dodge City," "The Hound Of The Baskervilles..."
World's Fair Preview
Wherever I can get a pizza with double anchovies, bacon, mushrooms, green olives and pepperoni of course.
Miningman So World Fairs have been replaced by ' look it up on line'. Can't think of anything dumber and less exciting. This was supposed to be where 20-30 years into the future and grand human achievement existed. Oh well we still have the lesser insightful and commercial Trade Fairs and Car Shows... for now anyway. I shudder to think history being replaced by simulations. We are all getting dumber..... and manipulated.
So World Fairs have been replaced by ' look it up on line'. Can't think of anything dumber and less exciting.
This was supposed to be where 20-30 years into the future and grand human achievement existed. Oh well we still have the lesser insightful and commercial Trade Fairs and Car Shows... for now anyway.
I shudder to think history being replaced by simulations.
We are all getting dumber..... and manipulated.
"Jones1945 explains to Miningman that the Matrix is an illusory world created to prevent humans from discovering that they are slaves to an external influence. Holding out a capsule on each of his palms, he describes the choice facing Miningman:
This is your chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
seppburgh2A little off topic, but why are there no more World Fairs? Was at the NYC and the Montreal fairs when I was a kid. Sad to think what kids are missing out on
Because there is no need to put every new product and idea from different industries all in one single event anymore. Corporation and the general public from all around the world have a lot of ways to reach their costumer and understand the most updated info of different industries on a daily basis; from the television, radio, publishment, advertisement, exhibition, global fair and today's internet...
MidlandMike World's Fairs are money losers so none have happened in the US for decades. It seems only losing sporting events are supported.
World's Fairs are money losers so none have happened in the US for decades. It seems only losing sporting events are supported.
Don't kid yourself. Somebody's making money on those sporting events or there wouldn't be any more of them either.
M636C Jones1945 I guess the SAL added the nose door on 3014, year unknown... https://www.shorpy.com/node/19490 The photo I had wasn't that clear... So there must have been a door in the unwashed area.... So both 3013 and 3014 lacked the nose doors at the World's Fair and had them added later (assuming that the earlier posted photo was of 3013 at the Fair.) I had seen that entry on Shorpy but had forgotten it... Peter
Jones1945 I guess the SAL added the nose door on 3014, year unknown... https://www.shorpy.com/node/19490
I guess the SAL added the nose door on 3014, year unknown...
https://www.shorpy.com/node/19490
The photo I had wasn't that clear...
So there must have been a door in the unwashed area....
So both 3013 and 3014 lacked the nose doors at the World's Fair and had them added later (assuming that the earlier posted photo was of 3013 at the Fair.)
I had seen that entry on Shorpy but had forgotten it...
Peter
My belief is that all the early SAL E-3's had nose doors - configured to push out to be opened. Otherwise they stayed recessed in the shape of the nose.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
M636C The photo I had wasn't that clear... So there must have been a door in the unwashed area.... So both 3013 and 3014 lacked the nose doors at the World's Fair and had them added later (assuming that the earlier posted photo was of 3013 at the Fair.) I had seen that entry on Shorpy but had forgotten it... Peter
I believe the doors were added on them after they were built, therefore there was a brass model for the "smooth nose" version of # 3014. Speaking of SAL's nose door, I guess it was a safety measure for the crews wasn't it? The original nose door design on SAL #4500 was in the line of their needs!
How have we got this far without mentioning the song?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Blossom_Special_(song)
The song was written about the train after the E-4s took over (1938) and they appeared in some artwork relating to the song.
There is a good description of the train in Dubin's "Some Classic Trains", which used Trains articles, so it should be in the DVD also.
There ia a photo of 3014 in the December 1971 Trains article, but the locomotive has a dirty mark up the centre of the nose (having been cleaned in a car wash?) but there is no indication of a nose door, as in the model photo above. However 3013 clearly had a nose door as delivered and apparently didn't at the World's Fair.
SSW9389 Preston Cook writes about the 567U/567V designs in the Summer 2012 Classic Trains, the E unit issue. See pages 20-21 where Cook writes about the E6.
Preston Cook writes about the 567U/567V designs in the Summer 2012 Classic Trains, the E unit issue. See pages 20-21 where Cook writes about the E6.
This is a useful summary...
http://utahrails.net/loconotes/pcook-emd-567.php
and could be read in conjunction with the Kettering paper..
Preston Cook writes about the 567U/567V designs in the Summer 2012 Classic Trains, the E unit issue. See pages 28-29 where Cook writes about the E6.
SSW9389 I don't have exact information, but there is a significant difference between the early 567 equipped slant nose E units and the later slant nose E units. The difference is in the engines. The E3s and E4s were built with paired 12V-567 U deck engines. The E5s and E6s were built with the 12V-567 V deck engines. If EMC wanted to show off the engines by comparison, there would be examples of both at the 1940 exhibit. That's my theory. Without original documentation from EMC or SAL I don't know how much further that theory can be taken. The 567 V deck was supposed to be a stronger design, than the 567 U deck engine. The change over to the V deck design occurred in the last quarter of 1939.
I don't have exact information, but there is a significant difference between the early 567 equipped slant nose E units and the later slant nose E units. The difference is in the engines. The E3s and E4s were built with paired 12V-567 U deck engines. The E5s and E6s were built with the 12V-567 V deck engines. If EMC wanted to show off the engines by comparison, there would be examples of both at the 1940 exhibit. That's my theory. Without original documentation from EMC or SAL I don't know how much further that theory can be taken. The 567 V deck was supposed to be a stronger design, than the 567 U deck engine. The change over to the V deck design occurred in the last quarter of 1939.
Eugene Kettering, EMD Chief Engineer, presented a paper to the American Society of Mechanical Engineers in November 1951. The title of the paper was "History and Development of the 567 Series General Motors Locomotive Engine". The part about the U Deck and V Deck engines is covered in the crankcase section starting on page 55. The first E6A, EMC #1940 was a preproduction prototype for the 567 V Deck engine. Kettering writes that the V Deck went into production in early 1940, see page 58. This historical gold mine document is hosted online by Don Strack at http://utahrails.net/pdf/EMD_567_History_and_Development_1951.pdf
Ed in Kentucky
SAL #3013
Posted by TPavluvcik on Flickr , George W. Pettengill Jr. photo, C. K. Marsh Jr. collection
M636C But clearly EMD dates take some interpretation.
Just like the model naming/numbering system(s)!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SSW9389 EMC serial number historian Andre Kristopans has identified three serial numbers associated with the New York 1939-1940 World's Fair. Those serials are 851-852 and 974. According to Kristopans the 851-852 were built in March 1939 and correspond with EMC 1939, 1939B. See http://utahrails.net/ajkristopans/PASSENGERUNITS.php#ea4 The 1939-1940 New York Worlds Fair was open from April to October both years. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_New_York_World%27s_Fair The most obvious thing is that the E4A unit was replaced by the E6A unit after the Fair closed in 1939.
EMC serial number historian Andre Kristopans has identified three serial numbers associated with the New York 1939-1940 World's Fair. Those serials are 851-852 and 974. According to Kristopans the 851-852 were built in March 1939 and correspond with EMC 1939, 1939B. See http://utahrails.net/ajkristopans/PASSENGERUNITS.php#ea4
The 1939-1940 New York Worlds Fair was open from April to October both years. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_New_York_World%27s_Fair
The most obvious thing is that the E4A unit was replaced by the E6A unit after the Fair closed in 1939.
daveklepper And I did see the to-be-Seabord E-3,4,6 in 1939 and its replacement in 1940, and not having recorded numbers, ages 7 and 8, of course thought they were the same locomotive!
And I did see the to-be-Seabord E-3,4,6 in 1939 and its replacement in 1940, and not having recorded numbers, ages 7 and 8, of course thought they were the same locomotive!
I viewed my first EMD locomotive in 1953, at the age of 5. I've subsequently identified it as Victorian Railways B63, on display at Sydney Terminal Station. I have clear memories of the day, including noticing that this was the first locomotive I'd ever seen without buffers. But like Dave, I didn't notice the number on the day...
daveklepper Are you sure the GM Train of Tomorrow was scrapped as early as 1964-1965? I photographed the interior when it was displayed in The Bronx in 1948. I rode the train after it was bought by the Northern Pacific and used as their traiby n for the three-railroads, three-trains-each-way Portland - Seattle pool servcie in 1961. It was actually built by Pullman, had no really experimental features - Excep that the dome was just after the Q's Silver-Vistq conversion, and before Budd production domes.
Are you sure the GM Train of Tomorrow was scrapped as early as 1964-1965? I photographed the interior when it was displayed in The Bronx in 1948. I rode the train after it was bought by the Northern Pacific and used as their traiby n for the three-railroads, three-trains-each-way Portland - Seattle pool servcie in 1961. It was actually built by Pullman, had no really experimental features - Excep that the dome was just after the Q's Silver-Vistq conversion, and before Budd production domes.
Thank you for the question and these precious photos, Dave! Was that you who holding the camera?
To be more precisely, the EMD E7A #765, later become UP #988 was retired in 1963 and "was sent back to EMD in 1965 and either rebuilt as an EMD E9A that was subsequently renumbered 912 or traded in on a new E9A; the records of EMD and the Union Pacific do not clearly indicate which occurred" (Ric Morgan "The Train of Tomorrow), the rest of the "Train of Tomorrow" train set: While Star Dust, Dream Cloud, and Sky View were retired from 1961 to 1964 and ultimately scrapped in 1964 at McCarty's Scrap Yard in Pocatello; only the Dome Observation Lounge ( Moon Glow) was "discovered" in 1990 and saved by the Golden Spike Railroad and Locomotive Historical Society. (Source: http://utahrails.net/pass/train-of-tomorrow.php & Ric Morgan "The Train of Tomorrow )
http://www.themetrains.com/gm-train-of-tomorrow-consist-04-moon-glow-dome-lounge-observation.htm
I was 16 at the time.
Overmod I don't remember seeing GP35 1964 (or much of the GM exhibit at all) when I was there that year (in part this was because we were a Ford family and didn't care much for 'the General') I was going by a piece I remember in Trains that said GM had displayed ... somewhere, not very prominent ... at least one slant-nose E unit that had been taken in as a trade-in, which I recall as being THE unit that was displayed at the earlier Fair -- then rather promptly scrapped it afterward. It should be relatively easy to fact-check this for someone with a functional Complete Collection.
I don't remember seeing GP35 1964 (or much of the GM exhibit at all) when I was there that year (in part this was because we were a Ford family and didn't care much for 'the General')
I was going by a piece I remember in Trains that said GM had displayed ... somewhere, not very prominent ... at least one slant-nose E unit that had been taken in as a trade-in, which I recall as being THE unit that was displayed at the earlier Fair -- then rather promptly scrapped it afterward. It should be relatively easy to fact-check this for someone with a functional Complete Collection.
Let me take a wild guess. GM has been proud of their diesel product, especially their E units, so they displayed an E unit which had a chance to drop by in the World's Fair before it was sent to scrap yard as a tribute or informal celebration to there own good old successful product.
M636C So in theory at least, EMC 1940 was built as an E-3, fitted with an E-4 nose door and delivered as an E-6 after display at the fair. It is shown as delivered 20 January 1940, so could not have appeared in the show for 1940. It is this unit that was said to be displayed at the 1964 fair after being traded in on an SDP-35. But what was the unit displayed during the 1940 Fair session? Was it the unit in the third photo? Dr Marre's article in the December 1971 "Trains" pages 38-47 does not identify any second E unit as being displayed. Peter
So in theory at least, EMC 1940 was built as an E-3, fitted with an E-4 nose door and delivered as an E-6 after display at the fair. It is shown as delivered 20 January 1940, so could not have appeared in the show for 1940.
It is this unit that was said to be displayed at the 1964 fair after being traded in on an SDP-35.
But what was the unit displayed during the 1940 Fair session? Was it the unit in the third photo?
Dr Marre's article in the December 1971 "Trains" pages 38-47 does not identify any second E unit as being displayed.
Thank you very much for the informative and very detailed response, Peter!
SAL E4A(?) with nose door.
American-Rails.com
SAL #3014 (without nose door)
SAL #3015 E6A with nose door.
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