Peter Witt streetcars that are not PCCs

[daveklepper]

I had posted a photo od a double-end Peter Witt of the 86th Street Line at the Coneyb Islahnd Stillwell Avenue Terminal earlier.  Here is a better photo of a similar car on the West End (streetcar) line at the same spot.  Note the elervated train above.  It a West End Shuttle, rinning between Bay Parkway and Stillwell Avenue during rush hours bwecause of the BMT's shortage of steel cars.   These specific elevated cars had subway-type third-rail shoes and were painted green instead of brown to distinguish thasm.

 

[Joseph Frank]

Hello again Dave. 

 

Thanks.  Glad to be of help re: Id's and locations when and where I am able to do so. I do know quite a lot but not "everything" -- and still learning new things now as we all are likely.

 

regards - Joe F

[daveklepper]

THanks, Joe.  And thanks for sending your memories of riding behind steam to me via email.  I hope you will post them on the Sunnyside thread with all the correct information.

I would not have thought the 5th Ave El, gone seven years before date-of-photo.  But both the Broadway and the Myrtle (at Wyandote) are working today.

You really are a whiz at NYC neighborhoods.

With the location you determined, 8031 could be on one of several lines.

[Joseph Frank]

Dave --

 

The above photo is NOT at Wyandot and Myrtle Ave  - and NOT with the BMT 5th Ave EL in background. 

The correct location is looking north from Broadway and with Roebling Street at left crossing Broadway and northward under the Williamsburg Bridge ornamental 2 track El structure for the BMT Broadway EL / Jamaica line  (over Broadway to the right fo this photo) to get to the Williamsburg Bridge and Manhattan to the west, left. 

Here below is an interactive GOOGLE Street view link --- to the same scene.  You can use your computer mouse to scroll and  drive / move around from that scene and see the rest of the area including the Broadway EL main structure which is to the right of this view.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7092788,-73.960488,3a,25.6y,7.56h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sajcI7PNyldkDyEhA4FCSng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

regards - Joe F

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

Here, I thought double-end Witt 8031 was at Wyandot and Myrtle, the south end of the Flushing-Ridgewood line, with 5the Myrtle Avenue Elevated above.  But Joe Frank corrected me, looking north from Broadway, Brooklynm, with bthe elevated structure the approach to the Williamsburg Bridge, west of  Marcy Avenue Station.

[Joseph Frank]

Hello Dave

Yes, I gave you ALL the scene info in my email reply to you on the group-email

list !

 

And yes, I have a few hundred or so of my "Then & Now" photo panels I created -- many with transit related scenes in them.

 

The Federal Building with the POINTED TOP tower still remains today --- see it on this google inte4ractive street view (you can drive around on the scene) -- looking northwest to Court from Rensen Street -- (you must COPY & PASTE the link to open it)

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6930516,-73.9907567,3a,46.7y,18.22h,96.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfU85kau358jjx3ztwTpgHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

In the old (your 1947) photo, that same pointed tower of the Federal Building is seen at the very left edge line top of your photo --- and the ROUND top tower on the large building sits in front of it.  In the modern photo,  the old Round Top Tower building is long gone --- and you can better see the pointed tower Federal Building at left edge of that photo

 

regards - Joe F

[daveklepper]

Wow!  Thanks.  Your own website probably has other good then-and-now comparisons.

And I believe you did send me the information that Henry Raudenbush also sent, as follows:

Building on the right is Brooklyn Borough Hall. 

Buildinhgb with pointed tower is Brooklyn's Federal Building with courtrooms and post office.   Not bin currentb photo?

[Joseph Frank]

Hello Dave

Here BELOW is my THEN & NOW photo of that B&QT Trolley 6015 on Court Street -- Image below:  (Regards - Joe F)

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

6015, a Brill single-end Peter Witt, is southbounhd on downtown Brooklyn's Court Street just south of Remson Street on the Flatbujsh Avenue Line.  The branching trascks without wire connected to the Fulton Street Line on that street, replaced by buses when the Fulton Street Elevsated was demolished west of its Rockaway Avenue Station. (End-of-service, June, 1i940, demolishon 1941.)

Livingston Street was used by the Flatbush Avenue and other lines between Court and Flatbush, one block south of Fulton St.

Joe Frank contributed information added to this caption.   His own website compartes this picture with the view today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9

[daveklepper]

Re: 8525 location

 

Russ J. via netzero.net	12:37 AM (8 hours ago)

 More likely the Junction Ave line. (DLK:  Grand Ave. on rollsign) The line across the meadows (line to Flushing) where the Fair was held, would not have anything looking like this after say 1938.  The Junction line which was built to get to North Beach (now LaGuardia) still operated on a stretch of the original country lane whose name I can't pull up quickly.  I can recall seeing the tracks coming out of no street and crossing Northern Blvd long after the line was closed.  When driving to Astoria to visit relatives we would pass under the overpass of the street the line had been moved over to when the parkway was built.  Often I would see a car sitting on the overpass changing ends.  I think it was Vincent Seyfreid who wrote that during the period when the Flushing EL line was operating only as far Corona while the underground terminal station in Flushing was being built connections were made between the NY&Q tracks on Northern Blvd and the Junction Ave line tracks so that a direct service could be run from Flushing to the Junction Blvd station.  But I know of no pictures of that.  Because the Junction line tracks crossed Northern Blvd about halfway between two intersections, one could get only a fleeting glimpse of the tracks from a bus in high gear.  Never was there on foot to see if there was any evidence of a track connection.   Pictures of building the Flushing Main Street station, which was likely a cut and cover construction, might exist. Would be interesting to see how the NY&Q tracks were dealt with during construction.  I suspect most fan trips going to Flushing also went over the shorter Junction line branch due to the novelty of the operation on the old country lane and the terminal on the overpass just short of the airport.

 

 

Russ J., TRC.CBB

 

Flushing - Ridgewood near NYWF site?

 

Jeffrey Erlitz

That would’ve been Jackson Mill Road, still in existence in Corona! From 95th St, north of 25th Avenue, to 94th St, south of 23rd Avenue. In addition, remnants of the street still exist south of 25th Avenue, across 96th street, across Astoria Blvd and into 97th Street. In fact, the little triangle park at Astoria Blvd & 97th Street is known as “Trolley Car Triangle!”

 

 

DLK:   Go back above on this page of this thread for a photo of the stub-end tedrminal on the overpass.

[daveklepper]

Double-end 8525, used as a double-ender on this fan-trip, but normally a single-ender on Myrtle Avenue, with sa turnstyle at one end, here on the  LaGuardia Airpot - Williamsburg - Junction Blvd. - Grand Avenue Line on Jackson Mill Road.

[daveklepper]

The interlaced loops at Van Dyck and Richards Streets in tthe Sandy Hook neighborhood, at the southern end of Brooklyn's Crosstown and Erie Basin lines.  Detroit, Baltimore, and Cleveland single-end Petyer Witts, and of course single-end PCCs, have different front and rear architecture.  Brooklyn and deck-roof Pittsbergh cars had similar front-and-rear arcitecture.

[daveklepper]

And a few of the two 8500s. one in  post-WWII green-and-silver, the other in the traditional cream-an-maroon, same location of the cars, but the photo from the opposite location:

At Stillwell Avenue, Coney Island, a regular 86th Street Line car:

 

[daveklepper]

Another photo at the L. I. City Loop, taken on the Coney Island - Hastings trip describes earlier:

[daveklepper]

Busy Livingston Street in downtown Brooklyn

Also June 1947, age 15

[daveklepper]

Correction:  Thev photo was at Bartell-Pritchard, butv t5hec cars are suthbound, notv the northbound cars we rode.

Here is single-end Peter-Witt 6073 on the Nostrand Avenhue Line at the intersection with Flatbush Avenue

.

[daveklepper]

This photo has a lot of personal history. 1010 is a Coney Island Avenue - Smith Street car from Coney Island.  Behind it is a Lorimer Line car, just come from the reversing crossover at the location of the previous phyoto.  Standing on the base of the streetcar station standarf is Thomas Lenthal, then Lowenthal. later an active member of the ERA NY Division.  My parents bought the black Leica D from his father. a Gerrman refugee photographer, whos family, including Tommy, lived in our brownstone's basement apartment until they could afford something better.  He was also a fellow camper at Camp Wahp-kee-nah in Hebron, New Hampshire on Newfound Lake. David Lews, my cousin, older of two sons of Nethanial Lewis (born Nethaniel Levitch) who owned the large drugstoire across from the LIRR Atlantic (Brooklyn) Terminal, and was a classmate at Columbia Grammar Prep., is crossing in front of the PCC we had exited, even though we were to board the Lorimer Line 8000 double-end Peter Witt behind the PCC.

For a long time I had wanted to go from Coney Island to the Yonkers - Hastings Line purely by Trolley.  (why not Coney Island - New Rochelle, I don't know.)  The route was either McDonald-Vanderbilt or Coney-Island-Smith to Park Row - City Hall. Manhatta, the TATS "T" to 161st Street, the "K"? to Marble Hill, 225th & Broadway, the "C" to the Bronx - Yonkers City Line at West 262nd Street, and the "1" to the hastings line.  I almost made it, but north of Main Street, Yonkers, I realized that going all the way would get me home too late for the regular dinner hour; thus off st the stairs doiwn to the NYCentral Glenwood Station, and caught an MU back tgo 125th Street, the Lexingtopn Avenue Subway, and the 86th Street bus crosstyown.

A few weeks later the "T" went bus.   But "K" put-ins and pull-outs still operated out of the 65th Street Shop and Carbarn. So. the alternative plan: C. I. Avenue to Bartrell-Pritchard Sq., Lorimer to Williamsburg, Crosstown or Graham to L. I. City, a 15-minute hike to the Vernon Avenue Queensboro Bridge Railway Station, and a short walk from the 2nd Avenue Termiknal to the 65th Street Carbarn and a ":K" just entering service, The plan worked.  But just for me and not for my two friends.  Because at Long Island City, after vfiewing the Bridge in the distance, they decided to return to Coney Island. 

 

 

[daveklepper]

 

 

Lorikmer Line at Bartell-Pritchard Square, wher connectionms to the Coney Island Avenue - Smith Street ,line existed.

[daveklepper]

A small coorrection to the avove phutu shows faintly a distant high-rise.

[daveklepper]

A Lorimer Line car followed by a 6000-single-end on the Crosstown Line.  Rich Allman contributed to the photo restoration.  It would be wonderful if some readers identified 8368'd operator and the policeman and were able to give the photo to the families.

 

[daveklepper]

The first photo in the previous post was edited from one supplied by Nate Gerstein. The second and third lightly edited photos supplied by James Greller, who authored and co-authored excellent books on Brooklyn rail transit.  The last two are mine, of cars awaiting scapping at Coney Island  Yard iun 1947.

The 5000s and 5100s were t5he only type of Brooklyn streetcar that ran into WWII that I did not ride.I

[daveklepper]

The 5000s werwe the first steel Brooklyn streetcars. after 3557, the prototype, center entrance photo provided by Nate Gerstein.  Originally, they were center-door entrance-and-exit, two-man cars, but were made into double-end Peter Witts by installing doors into slised-off right corners.  The 5100s (originaly 6000s) were sinilar doublr-end trailees, but wpth deck-roofs matching the motor cars that hauked them.  Half of this fleet, 50 cars, were converted to singke-end Peter Wiits,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

Showing the relationshipo of  the streetcar loop  to the waterfront.  The 4100 converted to single-end -with turnstyle was substituting for the usual 6000 single-end Peter Witt on the Crosstiown Line, bout 8000s were used as frequebntly as 6000s on the Grahaqm Line to Williamsburg Plaza.

[daveklepper]

The photo is on the 92nd Street, Queens, bridge over the Grand Central Parkway, the stub-end  terminal of the Grand Avenue Line, after Mayor LaGuardia forced the streetcars off the convenient loop they had in front of the "New York Municipasl Airport" (later LaGuuardia) Main Building.  The 8500s, unlike 8000 - 8499, had a turnstyle at one end for rapid loadind with single-end operation, so only a fan-trip saw them on lines requiring double enders.  (You can see a more modern turnstyle in the restored PCC 1001 af Shore Line Trolley Museun.)   All cars for single-end operation in Brooklyn received turnstyles.

Another photo on the Grand Avenue line from the fan trip that used two cars, 8532 in the post-WWII green-and-silver exterior, and 8525 in the pre-WWII maroon-and-cream.

Then to the Graham Avenue line, the Manhattan Avenue - Vernon Avene bridge to L. I. City, the loop there, and a waterfront view of the Eastern Distrct Terminal's LI City yard with the Manhattan skyline behind iL

 

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

the 8590's were originally regular one-man doeble-end steel safety cars with the Peter Witt door arrangement like all other 8000=series Brooklym streetcars.

But in the late 1920's they received an added feature which shifted them to single-end operating lines.  Qestion One:  What was this feature?

Here the car is at a stub-end gterminal.  The feature was not required on a fan-trip, ao tasking a  car normally assigned to lines with loops at both ends to lines requiring double-end cars was a drawer for this fan-trip.

Where is this photo location?

The line did once have a loop here.  Who was respomsible for the lkoop's removal an d greater inconvenirnce to people using the facility that might wish to arrive or leave by streetcar?

[daveklepper]

Double-end Peter Witt is on the Coney Iskland - Bay Ridge Line  on 86th St., looking east on 86th St. toward New trecht Avenue, with the West End line above.   The Loews Theater is Still there, no longer a movie theater.

[daveklepper]

From WikipediaL

Fort Greene is a neighborhood in the northwestern part of the New York City borough of Brooklyn. The neighborhood is bounded by Flushing Avenue and the Brooklyn Navy Yard to the north, Flatbush Avenue Extension and Downtown Brooklyn to the west, Atlantic Avenue and Prospect Heights to the south, and Vanderbilt Avenue and Clinton Hill to the east. The Fort Greene Historic District is listed on the New York State Registry and on the National Register of Historic Places, and is a New York City designated historic district.

The neighborhood is named after an American Revolutionary War era fort that was built in 1776 under the supervision of General Nathanael Greene of Rhode Island.^[4] General Greene aided General George Washington during the Battle of Long Island in 1776. Fort Greene Park, originally called "Washington Park" is Brooklyn's first. In 1864, Fort Greene Park was redesigned by Frederick Law Olmsted and Calvert Vaux; the park notably includes the Prison Ship Martyrs' Monument and crypt, which honors some 11,500 patriots who died aboard British prison ships during the American Revolution.

Fort Greene contains many examples of mid-19th century Italianate and Eastlake architecture, most of which is well preserved. It is known for its many tree-lined streets and elegant low-rise housing. Fort Greene is also home to the Williamsburgh Savings Bank Tower, which, for over 80 years, was the tallest building in Brooklyn.^[5] The neighborhood is close to the Atlantic Terminal station of the Long Island Rail Road and has access to many New York City Subway services.

On DeKalb Avenue, looking SE toward Fort Greene Park:

 

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

Russ Jackson sent this pre-WWII photo that was in Bill Madden's collection at 39th styreet near 2nd Avenue.  The South Brooklyn thread at Trains has a an SB freight at this location, also pre-WWII and  from Russ.  This streetcar is probably on the Church Avenue Line.  

[daveklepper]

further corrections by fellow ERA members:

	3:05 PM (2 hours ago)

The Holy Cross Cemetary car returning to thr Carhouse is at Rockaway & Hegeman,

near the Carhouse.

. 

The car on the Lorimer Lineis at Franklin and Montgomery, one block north of Franklin

and Crown, and the northeast corner of Prospect Park.