Again, please check the Ripley article in the Fall 2007 CLASSIC TRAINS
Possibly you need to check AT&SF timetable immediately prewar or during WWII. Possibly the heavyn use of the railroad during WWII and the backlog of track maintenance caused a reduction in allowable top freight train speeds.
Thank you Bruce for your extensive answer. Thinking about a hard working steamloco, especially in mountain area, necessary stops for refueling my have occur indeed every 50-100miles. But just walk down a mile long train can take 10min, to do recurring inspections sounds time-consuming.
Funny, I can not determine a speedometer in a 4000class cab... looking and looking but appears to have a mph scale...not in Kratvilles book, nor at photographs of preserved BB.
Either, speedometers were very small and my eyes to bad or... they were uncommon?
-lars
Lars Loco Sorry for my lacking english, Bruce, but "standing inspect", does it means : check cars (axles, springs, brakes, air flow...) every 40-50 miles!?! this sounds low...It sounds like an operational issue, not like a technical one... What was the supposed max. speed for friction bearings box cars / roller based coal/boxcars?
Sorry for my lacking english, Bruce, but "standing inspect", does it means : check cars (axles, springs, brakes, air flow...) every 40-50 miles!?!
this sounds low...It sounds like an operational issue, not like a technical one...
What was the supposed max. speed for friction bearings box cars / roller based coal/boxcars?
Lars, yes standing inspection does mean what you think it does. The problem comes from the fact that roller bearing use wasn't mandated on freight cars until 1970 or so. There were engines and tenders as well as passenger cars with roller bearings, but freight cars were a whole other matter. I understood that the supposed maximum speed for friction bearing equipped freight cars was 50 MPH. That would be for standard trucks, not high speed trucks used on express boxcars and reefers in passenger train service.
Fifty miles does seem low, but on single track mainline there was enough traffic that freight trains would normally have to stop for meets within that distance. The rule does not mean at 50 mile increments from the terminal you started from. Crews would have their orders when they left their terminal, and from those they could discern the lineup on the road. They would then plan out at which sidings they would walk the train to do the inspections while they were waiting for the other train anyway. In the fifties railroading was still a dangerous game, and when trains were stopped crews looked over all of the equipment pretty closely whenever they got the chance. Engine crews over their engines, and train crews over the train.
This now gets us back to the question of why have timetables if nobody is following the rules. I grew up hearing of fast freight trains. And I look at amazement at these old time tables and wonder how anything ever got done considering the enormous distances trains traveled in Canada. It was a strange mix of cautious head office management and skilled yet careful men pushing things as hard as they could go. Modern rules based railroading started in Canada after the wreck at Piapot, Saskatchewan around 1970. It wasn't a loss of life, or the cost of the damage that changed the game, it was the clean up cost and lost revenue as a result of having to clear the wreckage from the track. A loaded grain train running 80+ MPH hit the ground and put a terrific number of cars between about three telegraph pole lengths. There were many 100 ton cylindrical hoppers piled three layers deep, and the railway's equipment wasn't tall enough to reach to the top of the pile, and outside machinery had to be brought in to deal with it. It got a lot of people's attention.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
AgentKid " Specific mention is made on these same Sub's. that the rule for standing inspections of all Mixed and Freight trains is amended from every 40 miles to every 50 miles." Bruce
"
Specific mention is made on these same Sub's. that the rule for standing inspections of all Mixed and Freight trains is amended from every 40 miles to every 50 miles."
I think the cars itself did not had problems accelerating up to 70mph.
Think about heavy weights cars, or tenders. A big centipede tender of total 200tons weight could roll 100mph easily.
btw:classic steam is here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc9jf6m9KrU&feature=channel
Lars Loco They did not a have a problem to run a Mountain class with passenger train up to 75mph, but freight was limited to 50mph. Could technical issues ( for example breaking power ) gives reason of those speed limits?
They did not a have a problem to run a Mountain class with passenger train up to 75mph, but freight was limited to 50mph.
Could technical issues ( for example breaking power ) gives reason of those speed limits?
I finally had time to rexamine some 1950's era CPR ETT's. It seems that even though the passenger train maximum speed is 80 MPH on mainline Sub's., on the same Sub's. freight is restricted to 45 MPH.
But I think I have an answer for that. I believe it is the limitations of freight car technology. Specific mention is made on these same Sub's. that the rule for standing inspections of all Mixed and Freight trains is amended from every 40 miles to every 50 miles. It sounds like the limiting factor is not the capabilities of the engines, or the track conditions, but the freight cars themselves.
Deggesty 5629pac: My father was a Yardmaster for the Grand trunk Western. He would bring a new turntable home every time they came out. I seemed like there was a table on the back page that gave speed verses time between mile posts. I don't rembering one without it. Boxcar 5629 Again, the system does not want me to excerpt one sentence. Now, I really cannot resist asking this question: where did your father put the turntables that he brought home? Did you have a large yard? Back to reality: other roads also had the tables for determining speed from the elapsed time between mile posts.
5629pac: My father was a Yardmaster for the Grand trunk Western. He would bring a new turntable home every time they came out. I seemed like there was a table on the back page that gave speed verses time between mile posts. I don't rembering one without it. Boxcar 5629
My father was a Yardmaster for the Grand trunk Western. He would bring a new turntable home every time they came out. I seemed like there was a table on the back page that gave speed verses time between mile posts. I don't rembering one without it. Boxcar 5629
Now, I really cannot resist asking this question: where did your father put the turntables that he brought home? Did you have a large yard?
Back to reality: other roads also had the tables for determining speed from the elapsed time between mile posts.
Employee time tables still have that chart. It's how you check the accuracy of the speedometer.
Jeff
timz On UP Cheyenne-Ogden, steam freight was allowed 50 mph in 1953 (diesel 55). On SFe west of Albuquerque/Belen, freight limit (steam or diesel) went from 55 to 60 around that time.
On UP Cheyenne-Ogden, steam freight was allowed 50 mph in 1953 (diesel 55). On SFe west of Albuquerque/Belen, freight limit (steam or diesel) went from 55 to 60 around that time.
Investigations with Mr. google spreads out a nice link http://oldtrainschedules.com/ of some older timetables.
At a brief look, the quickest to find steam-era dated TT is
"(1955-10-30) Union Pacific Kansas Division Employee Timetable No. 22" (Midwest Area)
As Tim has already published, highest allowed speed of steam pulled freight is again 50mph on that route.
Page 19 (General notes) shows some interesting details: a Table of max allowed speeds for different classes of UP steamlocos:
-Mountains, Challengers, 2-10-2s, 4-12-2s and Mikes with 63in drivers were permitted 50mph
-4000class, which I believe they never actually ran this route, were permitted just 45mph (freight and passenger!)
What could be the reason of that? The 9000class did not have a good reputation of have been a fast steamloco, why were even they permitted to run faster than a 4000class?
Does anybody has a TT of '40ties era?
daveklepperAuthorized freight speeds for the 4-8-4's and the 2-10-4's were 60 mph
daveklepperwith the timetable giving permission to exceed by 10 mph if necessary to recover time to schedule.
daveklepperSo freights at 70 mph were NOT all that uncommon in the steam era!
I refer you to the Ripley article in the Fall 2007 CLASSIC TRAINS
Authorized freight speeds for the 4-8-4's and the 2-10-4's were 60 mph with the timetable giving permission to exceed by 10 mph if necessary to recover time to schedule. These 2-10-4's were allowed on occasion to haul freight at 70 mph. The article states these were the only 2-10-4's to do so. The N&W did not have any 2-10-4's.
So freights at 70 mph were NOT all that uncommon in the steam era!
5629pac My father was a Yardmaster for the Grand trunk Western. He would bring a new turntable home every time they came out. I seemed like there was a table on the back page that gave speed verses time between mile posts. I don't rembering one without it. Boxcar 5629
Johnny
the only time i ever got a fast ride in the cab of a steam engine was also the only time i ever saw a steam engine with a speedometer - that is, before the FRA era when they became mandatory. it was on UP 826 west out of laramie with a passenger train, and the speedometer needle was vibrating so badly you couldn't see it! timing by milepost i got 65 MPH or so, and the engineer seemed to agree. actually the whole engine was vibrating so much that i felt i was standing on top of a jackhammer - and the UP 800's were reputed to ride as smoothly as a baby buggy! -arturo (big duke)
timz Lars Loco: Was this the max. allowed track speed for freight? It was the maximum allowed by timetable in 1953, yes. Who knows whether anybody cared if engineers exceeded those speeds.
Lars Loco: Was this the max. allowed track speed for freight?
It was the maximum allowed by timetable in 1953, yes. Who knows whether anybody cared if engineers exceeded those speeds.
Thank you for your reply. But why have a timetable anyway, if nobody has to care about. Will try to investigate that.
Unfortunately, this gives room for speculation again - did they try to avoid excessive rail-wearing?
Lars LocoWas this the max. allowed track speed for freight?
I dug out the N&W timetables, and you hit the jackpot there: in 1953-54 speed limit was the same 78 mph for passenger and freight, east of Petersburg and west of Kenova. And that's any freight, not just the hot symbols.
I have a question to that: Was this the max. allowed track speed for freight?
From Cheyenne to Ogden is a pretty long way, of about 500 miles, containing flat areas.
This undated, presumably newer timetable suggests higher speeds: http://trains.mtnaircomputer.net/old-site/upwyoming/cheyenne-laramie.html
While not validated, some photos and videos of that area and time suggests also, that steam freight was running above 50mph. At least one at earlier times. In BB#4000 break-in run between Tipton - Bitter Creek, they gained 72mph for testing purposes with an empty reefer train of 100 cars.
Glad to have facts from employee timetables. Seems like 60 mph was tops for freight behind steam anywhere in NA. But we all know there were times when trains ran faster than authorized by timetable. Again, check the "Big Train" Rock Island article for just one example. But it would also be interesting to check ACL and SAL timetables regarding fruit trains in the late 30's and of course the famous NP Silk Trains, although I guess technically the latter were baggage=car trains and not frieght trains.
For the east, you might wish to check Norfolk and Western late steam era employees toimetables east of Petersburg, VA.
Then by all means check the UP trunk line, Omaha, -Cheyenne, and the AT&SF transcon. In many case, only specific freight trains were allowed higher speeds. Rememberr the TRAINS "Big Train" Rock Island auto parts train article?
timzdaveklepperI don't have a PRR employees timetable, but I would bet than one does show freight speeds of 60mph behind steam. Not at all unusual. The N&W ran coal trains at 70mph behind class A 2-6-6-4's. The ACL and Seabord ran fruit blocks of regular wood steel-framed refers behind passenger power (Pacifics, usually) at 70mph. The UP and AT&SF 4-8-4's were designed specifically for such high-speed freight service.Can anyone find a timetable for any railroad that allows steam freight to run at 70 mph? Here and there some RRs may have allowed their hottest steam freights to run 60-- but not PRR, I'm guessing. I checked a bunch of NY/Pittsburgh/Eastern Divs TTs and found nothing over 50. Of course, as everyone knows steam freights all over the country were actually running 120 mph, at the very least-- but speed limits in the timetables were lower.
daveklepperI don't have a PRR employees timetable, but I would bet than one does show freight speeds of 60mph behind steam. Not at all unusual. The N&W ran coal trains at 70mph behind class A 2-6-6-4's. The ACL and Seabord ran fruit blocks of regular wood steel-framed refers behind passenger power (Pacifics, usually) at 70mph. The UP and AT&SF 4-8-4's were designed specifically for such high-speed freight service.
Of course, as everyone knows steam freights all over the country were actually running 120 mph, at the very least-- but speed limits in the timetables were lower.
The 10/56 NY Div timetable is the first one I have that shows 60 mph for the piggyback trains TT-1 and TT-2. Speeds for steam were still in that timetable, and class M was still shown as 80 mph-- so if by chance a 4-8-2 ever pulled those trains it was allowed 60.
I guess it may have been just a case of officialdom "winking" at excessive speed, but as a frequent PRR traveler, I can only report what I observed, and of course judging speed can vary in accuracy. Possibly someone with more recent collections of employee TT's may resolve the question. I think the higher speed limits may have been put into effect during WWII just to get the traffic over the road and approach a constant speed railroad to a greater degree. But the only places where I observed really high speed freight PRR operaton were under wire, both steam and electric, and between Fort Wayne and Chicago, but those were far faster freight speeds than observed elsewhere on the system.
I heard the following story from the late Lynn Nystrom, Engineer in the Union Pacific's Steam Program. He made his comments during a tour he was conducting of the Steam Shops during the NMRA-RMR Convention in Cheyenne in June 2005.
The day previous to the start of the Convention, he had taken UP 844 on a test run from Cheyenne, WY to LaSalle, CO and return. The UP 844 has two speedometers which he observed periodically during the test run. One speedometer consistently showed his speed as 20 mph. The other speedometer read 100 mph. He took the average of the two readings and concluded his speed was 60 mph. Obviously his many years of experience in operating UP 844, as both an Engineer and a Fireman, had enabled him to "feel" the actual speed of the engine.
During the tour he pointed out the two speedometers in the cab of UP 844. One speedometer was sitting on the Fireman's seat awaiting repair. A member of the shop crew was sitting in the Engineer's seat working on the other speedometer.
Deggestyand may even have had varying numbers of poles betweenmileposts
In CPR ETT's, Sub's. that had non standard numbers of telegraph poles per mile were noted, and the actual number of poles per mile were listed in Special instructions for that Sub.
I forget right now what the standard number per mile was.
Some roads, such as the UP, had forty poles to the mile, with every ten poles numbered. Now the UP has 1/4 miles posts between the numbered mileposts.
And, some roads had no numbers on the poles, and may even have had varying numbers of poles betweenmileposts.
The engineers use to count telegraph poles. The poles were placed at a very closely measured interval. An experienced engineer could also tell by the sound as they passed the poles.
daveklepper FortWayne TT say anythinhg about 10 mph above normal for special reasons?
davekleppersame speeds on these freight trains as GG-1's with frieght.
Does your FortWayne TT say anythinhg about 10 mph above normal for special reasons?
Also, during WWII, occasonally double-headed K4's and single M-1's hauled frieght UNDER wire in the East. The were allowed the same speeds on these freight trains as GG-1's with frieght.
I know many of the NYC locos did have a "Valve Pilot", IIRC this would govern the top speed of the loco by applying the engine brakes, at which time the crew would have to manually release the brakes after stopping the engine. I believe this also indicated speed and recorded the speed. You can bet that there would be sever reprecutions to any engineer who caused a train the likes of the 20th Century Limited to make an unscheduled stop out on the mainline. I am no steam expert, but perhaps some of the many old hats here can shed more light on the Valve Pilot system. I have seen several NYC vidoes and at least most of the passanger engines I saw had speedometers. The Valve Pilot itself is recognizable on the side of the locomotive if you know what to look for. It is kind of a round device with (lets say) wings on each side on the horizontal. Perhaps someone could provide pix of such. My dad told me as a conductor on the C&O he figured the speed by counting telephone poles over some period of time and that told him the speed. He worked on coal drags usually between Walbridge Ohio and the Coal docks, so usually they were going 5mph and blocking traffic on the surface streets.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River (fictional) Railroad
The 1939 Fort Wayne Div TT shows 50 mph for freight, but I don't have one newer than that-- looks like nobody else does either?
You are probably correct about PRR steam in the east, but again, check Fort Wayne - Valapriso - Chicago. Remember that this is also the location where the E6-hauled PRR - Wabash Detroit Arrow regularly exceeded 100mph, as detailed in the Kalmb ach Apex of the Atlantics.
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