The I.C.C. Accident Reports on line can be a source of 1900s speed limits or the lack of them. Some reports of electric interurban wrecks mention that management saw no need for published maximum speed limits on their main lines because the cars were not capable of running "too" fast on the voltage supplied!
In very early years, the New York & Erie RR tried "Dutch Clocks" in their cabooses to record violations of an 18 miles per hour maximum speed limit. Erie caboose frames must have been strong, because the alleged practice at the beginning of a trip was to couple the locomotive into the standing caboose at 18 m.p.h. to jam the clock's innards at the permitted speed! Now it could be coupled to the train without the officials knowing how eager the crew was to get done early.
The engineers I have worked with on Soo Line 2719 used the mile posts. Just time the interval between each one. We have a chart with time versus one mile. Pretty simple.
If you run a locomotive for awhile, you can feel and hear sounds that you can relate to different speeds. When I have operated the 2719 on 30 mph track, the locomotive begins to bounce a certain way. The 2719 was built in 1923 without a speedometer. We now use a GPS for speed monitoring.
If you are really interested, come ride with us next year on North Shore Scenic Railroad, Duluth to Two Harbors, MN. You can buy a cab ride ticket. Bring your stop watch.
Dave
The article, Last Chance, by John Crosby was in the August 1993 issue of Trains, pp 54-56. Probably one of the greatest first-hand steam and speed stories.
Seppburgh, thanks for that. I love any and all information on PRR T-1's. I wonder what year that might have been....1950? '51? I am going to try to track down that back issue.
A few years ago, Trains published a story of one the last runs of the PRR T-1's. The author was the fireman. Being already in the diesel era, he and the engineer weren't dressed for steam. But, they found their express mail train had been assigned a dirty run down T-1. Out about Fort Wayne there was a race track of straight track where the engineer conculed it would be the last time they might ever be on one of these so he took the moment. In the story, the speedometer was pegged at 120. Yes, its one of those rare story that takes your breath away. And, yes steam did have speedometers.
That would obviously depend on lots of things. How close is the next watering stop? Is it double track and the leg hanging out on the inside devel's strip? How close are clearances? Are trains expected to pass? How much delay can the line afford without it being tied up? Hopefully, some common sense and experience and knowledge of both the railroad and the equipment would present the right answer.
I think that with a freight train with top level condition cars and excellent equipment and right of way, the top limit most engineers would observe in a make up time and come in on time situation would be the passenger train limit.
daveklepper Less experienced engineers had the book to guide them until they learned where exceptions could be made safely/
Less experienced engineers had the book to guide them until they learned where exceptions could be made safely/
Johnny
I need to elaborate a bit more. During the "golden age" of railroading, things were not as cut and dried as they are now and have been for at least 20 years. I got to run a B&M freight train as an MIT student and junior test engineer for the B&M, strictly not an official part of my work. I ran a subway train (1917-1926 "Low-V's) on the Pelham Bay line charted by the Electric Railroaders Association when I was Pres. of that organization. Made smooth stops at the right car markers, too!) This would be impossible today!
Possibliy if there had been written authorizaton of overriding speed limit restrictions, the shippers not served by the faster trains could have taken the railroad to court! Experienced engineers were trusted to think of safety first but not sacrifice service in the name ot just going by the book. Less experienced engineers had the book to guide them until they learned where exceptions could be made safely/ A general run of the mill freight train may not have had all loads at the front and all empties at the rear. Freight cars could be in varying condition.
I doubt that any AT&SF frieght ran more than 70mph, but they may have reached that speed on a few special occasions. I agree, it is a good question.
Do you remember the Trains article about THE BIG TRAIN? There it is stated that the auto parts train on the Rock was expected by officials to exceed speed restrictions, without any official authorizaton to do so!
Sure, everyone knows steam freights all around the country did 60 mph, or maybe 80 or 100 mph, when the engineer was confident it was absolutely safe to do so. Question is, was it "allowed"-- and that depends what you mean by "allowed".
The 5001's were designed to operate at 60mph with rated tonnage. Tnat is it, and I can assure you regardless of any timetables (my own experience) they did just that. Any retired engineer will tell you that there were always specific situations where it was commonly known that rule book speed limits could exceeded if the engineer was confident is was absolutely safe to do so, THIS IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM TODAY'S SITUATION.
daveklepperThe Ripley article clearly states the 2-10-4's and 4-8-4's were premitted 60 mph per timetable plus 10mph overspeed to make up time.
The article actually says
"...the 5001's were designed to operate safely at 60 mph with rated tonnage, and were allowed 66 mph in passenger service. Timetable rules in effect during this period allowed locomotives to exceed the published speed limit by 10 percent for brief intervals if required to make scheduled time."
He's not saying the timetable allowed them 60 mph (or 66 or 70 mph) on freight. Until maybe 1949 the timetable allowed freight 50 mph; some timetables (i.e. some divisions, some years) allowed freight an extra 10%, but the 2-10-4s may have been an exception to that-- I haven't seen any pre-1949 timetable that gave them the extra 10%.
(The 10% rule applied only to freight; SFe's rule about passenger trains exceeding their limit was famously vague, and no way for us to know what 2-10-4s were actually "allowed" on passenger trains.)
In the early 1950s the freight limit was a flat 55-- no mention of the extra 10% for any engine.
The 4/56 NY and Phila Region TTs show 50 mph for freight; a 5/56 general order shows 60 mph for TT-1 and TT-2 on the Phila Region. So as you'd expect the 10/56 NY Region timetable also shows 60 mph for those two trains.
Both Union Pacific engines 844 & 3985 have speedo's
Do you have the timetables to determine just when speed was raised. Do you have access to them?
Again, during WWII especially, and particularly between Fort Wayne and Chicago, there were times that overspeeding was not penalized in the interest of keeping the line flued and getting the war material delivered. Any of the old time PRR engineers will tell you that. I also recall a story in Trains about a ride on a three or four car National Limited in Amtrak days between Baltimore and WASHINGTON where the speed approached 120 mph behind a GG-1. I asume the rider was looking at mileposts. I recall seeing 110 mphs on the speedometer of one of the two Turbotrains between Rye and New Rochelle, where the speed limit was at that time officially 70mph! I also saw the speedometer of a Metroliner between Wilmington and Baltimore at 136mph, when the speed limite was 110 for Metroliners. And then my conversation at the rear of the Obs of the Silver Meteor going north from Jacksonville, few years before the SCL merger. To the trainman sitting in the seat across from me: "Do you know how fast we are going?" Reply" *The ICC Auhtorized Speed Limit on this track is 79 mph, and that is how fast we are going. "Oh? I am timing each mile post at 36 seconds, 36 seconds, 36 seconds, continually." Repeated reply: "The ICC Authorized Speed Limit on this stretch of track is 79 mph, and that is as fast as we are going." With a smile of course.
True-- no reason to assume anything; for all we know a 4-8-2 conceivably did pull TT-1 on some unknown occasion in 1956. If it did, far as we know it would have been allowed 60 mph.
daveklepperI would assume what was true in 1956 was probably true of few years earlier anyway.
Isn't you post a bit contradictory? Some of the last roundhouses to house PRR steam, were in the east close to or on electrification, and there isn't any reason to assume that the old practice of using steam, and then deisel, under wire, during heavy traffic periods, instead of investing in more electric power, was ended. I would assume what was true in 1956 was probably true of few years earlier anyway.
Far as we can tell from the timetable, a PRR 4-8-2 would have been allowed 60 mph on a couple of freight trains starting around 1956; no reason to assume a 4-8-2 ever pulled those trains. No PRR timetable ever showed 70 mph for any steam engine pulling any freight.
And we have already established that M-1 Mountains undercatenary were authorized 70mph with specific freight trains (intermodal).
timz Governors on steam locomotives? Sounds unlikely, doesn't it? Offhand I'm guessing steam-powered PRR freights weren't supposed to do even 60 mph. More likely 50.
Governors on steam locomotives? Sounds unlikely, doesn't it?
Offhand I'm guessing steam-powered PRR freights weren't supposed to do even 60 mph. More likely 50.
Not really. The LNER had a tram line with governor on the tram engines to limit them to 12 mph. Now US trains I'm not too sure about
If you can read this... thank a teacher. If you are reading this in english... thank a veteran
When in doubt. grab a hammer.
If it moves and isn't supposed to, get a hammer
If it doesn't move and is supposed to, get a hammer
If it's broken, get a hammer
If it can't be fixed with a hammer... DUCK TAPE!
bigduke76 somebody said, 'mile-long trains are a phenomenon of the diesel era". wrong! ...
somebody said, 'mile-long trains are a phenomenon of the diesel era". wrong! ...
Yes, most certainly wrong. The Norfolk & Western routinely ran 160+ wagon consists nested between three Mallets of the Y variety. That would, with the engines, be well in excess of 1 mile...close to 1.3 miles.
-Crandell
And those 100-car freight trains were frequently pulled by ONE EF-3 double-end streamlined eslectric, inlcuding the stiff grades to and from the Hell Gate Bridge. Or by three or four "Pony Motors" in multiple. The same years I watched them cross Hell Gate Bridge from an upper floor friend's Central Park West apartment window.
somebody said, 'mile-long trains are a phenomenon of the diesel era". wrong! all summer long during 1943, i watched 100-car-plus freights (close to or over 5000 ft.) roll past Van Nest shops in the Bronx; behind ELECTRICS! i betcha the Pennsy did the same on its electrified divisions. the reason i was watching at van nest shops? they used the only steam engine i knew of in the area as a shop switcher!
For slower speeds, the number of driver revolutions could be counted for a certain time. There are tables for different sized drivers (or you could calculate it if you wanted to). For example, for a locomotive with 63" drivers, count the number of revolutions (or number of exhaust chugs and divide by 4) in 11 seconds. The number of driver revs in 11 seconds is the speed in mph. This is easy to do at speeds up to about 30 mph.
None of our Illinois Central steam locomotives (both passenger and freight) had speedometers. I think I can state without equivocation that any road enginner could tell you from experience (within 5 mph) how fast he was running.
I no longer have an ETT from the steam era but the maximum track speed for freights on the Illinois Div. mainline between Richton Park and Effingham was at least 70 mph. Other than for track work, the only speed restrictions that I recall were at Kankakee, Gilman, Champaign and Mattoon. IC's hotshot freight, MS-1, regularly ran at 70 mph behind steam with about 50 journal bearing boxcars.
There was no checking of cars between Markham Yard in Chicago (actually Homewood) and Champaign, a distance of right at 100 miles. Car Inspection at Champaign was done by car knockers and not Tand E crewmen. As far as I know this was the practice all over the IC system.
Mark
What did he actually say? What territory is he talking about, in what year?
No one else has found a SFe timetable showing 70 mph for SFe steam freight-- right?
The Ripley article clearly states the 2-10-4's and 4-8-4's were premitted 60 mph per timetable plus 10mph overspeed to make up time.
daveklepperplease check the Ripley article in the Fall 2007 CLASSIC TRAINS
I checked 1940 SFe timetables between Albuquerque/Belen and LA-- freight maximum was 50 or 55 mph.
Lars Loco But just walk down a mile long train can take 10min, to do recurring inspections sounds time-consuming.
But just walk down a mile long train can take 10min, to do recurring inspections sounds time-consuming.
Mile long trains didn't happen in the 1950's behind steam in Canada. My father worked with a dispatcher who was known as "Big Train" right up to his retirement. As a young man he started dispatching at the same time as the CPR was moving their Selkirk 2-10-4's (the biggest steam loco's in the British Empire (as they used to call it)) out of the mountains onto the Brooks Sub. On that line they could pull about eighty cars or about 4000 ft. Young folks who hired on in the early 1980's were always amazed at that story.
Mile long freights were a phenomena of the Diesel era.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
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