Charlotte, NC has many stations built above roadways at the end near Pineville, NC and the station above I 277 and the second floor of the bus depot uptown.
Yes, I do have to include Oakland, and yes, Oakland is a suburb of San Francisco, but is also a city in its own right. So we will include Oakland. As far Charlotte, I was unaware that the elevated between stations is located over a roadway. If it is, then Charlotte is included. If the elevated between stations is over private right of way, then Charlotte should not count.
Henry, you should be absolutely and deeply ashamed of yourself for including the B and the D in the Bronx. The Concourse INF line and the Pelham Bay IRT line underground portion, have the distinction of being the only three-track subways in New York City, both in the Bronx.
You have left out Manhattan's only remaining elevated. If someone other than Henry answers that, he or she is the winner.
There is also an important elevated structure in Brooklyn, not run as part of the subway system. Tell us what it is and who uses it and what kind of equipment did it use and uses it now, he or she is the winner. Henry, you can answer this question. But do some research first. And be the winner.
Or tell us what two other cities have elevated structures, not mentioned so far. Somewhat unusual technology in both. And Henry can, of course, answer this question. And be the winner/
How could one forget. Long Island RR above Atlantic Av. Thx IGN
Manhattan's last elevated. The #1 line above Nagle Av & 100th Av to Broadway which then continues on Broadway into the Bronx to Van Courtland Manor in Riverdale.
I am not sure how you are counting the elevated portion above 125th St on Broadway. The #1 line comes out of the subway At 122nd St and is on bridgework from LaSalle Av to 133rd but only the stop @ 125th St is elevated. It is really spectacular to look at from 125th st as the bridge is a massive steel arch with the station suspended within. As a boy I lived on Riverside Dr opposite Grant's Tomb and this was where my mom & I would catch the subway. For a 4 year old it made that piece of the subway even larger.
Thx IGN
Truthfully Dave, I have never ridden MTA in the Bronx and am familiar only with commuter rail there. So I am not ashamed. I can think of several elevated structures in Queens and Broolkyn but not used for passenger services and one in Brooklyn that is. Other elevated rr cities, I cannot grasp at the moment.
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narig is clearly the winnder. The Atlantic Avenue elevated was built with the same standard components as the "city built" Dual Contracts elevateds for both the IRT and BRT-BMT, such as Jerome Avenue and Broadway-Brooklyn's rebuilt, except it is two-track, without space for a center track. It runs continously along Atlantic Avenue as a regular elevated structure, and the stations at East New York - Eastern Parkway and at Nostrand Avenue look just like rapid transit elevated stations. The Manhattanville Viaduct is a genuine elevated structure for much of its length, inclujding the 125th Street station. Of course the Broadway IRT line also has a portion of elevated structure north from Dyar Avenue, a station on the incline from the subway portal, to the bridge between the 215St and 225th Street stations across Harlem Raver and the New YOrk Central Hudson Division (now MN) passenger tracks from Mott Haven to Spuyten Dyvil Junction. The Park Avenue Mew YOrk Central structure does not count, because it is entirely filled in under the tracks except at street underpasses and where the 125th Street station is acommodated integrally.
A peuliarity of New York Gerography is that Marble Hill and the 225th Street IRT station are legally in Manhattan even though on The Bronx side of the Harlem River. Apparently at one time the Harlem River entered the Hudson farther north, but the course of the river was modified sometime early in the 19th Century. before construction of the Hudson River Railroad.
Back to the LIRR's Atlantic Avenue elevated. The first trains on the structure were, as far as I know, the Gibbs cars, the first LIRR steel cars built with the almost identacle cars for the IRT, and these cars continued to be used, largely on Brooklyn - Rockaway and Brooklyn - West Hempstead sevice until well after WWII. Other than the fact that they never had a center door installed, they looked and sounded like red IRT cars, narrower and shorter than the massive fleet of MP-54 cars.
Other operations are the Las Vegas Monorail, which I understand is largely over a boulevard sidewalk, and the extensive Vancouver Skytrain elevated system, which uses linear motor propulsion.
Dave I had never thought about Marble Hill. As it was an area of the city north of the Harlem River I assumed it was in the Bronx. When I looked at the googlemaps overhead the river course was pretty obvious. (Of course Riverdale is in the Bronx but neither residents of the Bronx or Riverdale would admit to it.(lol) )
If you've the inclination look at googlemaps street view of the 125th St statio on the #1 Broadway Line . It is a steel arch bridge. As I said I lived near there as a boy. As I remember it, if you wanted to get to the train you had to walk about 1/2 a block on a steep incline to get to the bottom of the steps and then up 1 flights of stairs to get to the booth. then up another flight to the platform level.
Also if you ever want to take pictures of the IND's 207th st yard the best place I ever found was from the #1 line 207th st station.
I had half forgotten about the LIRR's Atlantic Av elevated til you'd asked about it.
Researching some of the answers brought back a lot of memories of both New York & Berkeley(where BART has it's "elevated"(actually North Oakland)).
I'd not seen or ridden Vancouver's Sky Train so I'd not thought about an elevated there.
Now as to the next question.
Name the oldest Railroad Tunnel in continous use in North America. The name location and current operator.
Baltimore. Howard St. Built by B&O now CSX operated.
I will say Hoosac Tunnel in Massachusetts, now operated by B&M.
Norfolk Southern uses the natural tunnel and a natural bridge both are is the state of Virginia.
Norfolk Southern uses both the natural tunnel and natural bridge both in Virginia.
Howard St in Baltimore was opened in 1894 as part of a project to bypass street running I believe.
The Natural Bridge line was constructed in the 1890's.
Hoosic Tunnel construction was begun in 1848 and completed in 1875. (It may have set a record for length of tim under construction)
None of these.
The tunnel I'm looking for predates these. The oldest RR tunnel in the US is on the Allegheney Portage RR. The RR that went thru it though was shutdown in the 1930's I think.
Rgds IGN
Henry My apoligies. Were you refering to the Howard Tunnel in New Salem, Pa? That dates to 1840. The one I am looking for predates that by 3 years.
No, I was talking about Baltimore....PRR used the tunnel you are referring and didn't it inlclude "Muleshoe" Curve?
George Washington survey both the natural bridge and tuinnel both before the 1770s as a route through the mountains to the western lands before the iron horse.
Yes it does predate any railroad tunnel by about a million years or so, however Natural Bridge has only been in railroad use since the 1890's.
Black Rock Tunnel? Phoenixville, PA. Norfolk Southern.
Excerpt from The Farmers' Register (1838)
Philadelphia and Reading Rail-Road.
There is no work in Pennsylvania more interesting, or, as far as finished, better executed than this. For several months the navigation of the Schuylkill improvement is closed by ice, and great difficulty is experienced in transporting coal from the extensive coal region of Pottsville, and that section of the state, to market. To remedy this evil was the Philadelphia and Reading railway projected. When completed, it will not stop, as its name would indicate, at Reading, but will extend to Pottsville, a distance of 93 miles, and will there connect with the rail-road from that place to Sunbury, and also with the numerous little roads radiating from Pottsville to every coal mine in the neighborhood. When this road shall have been finished to the coal region, the amount of transportation it will do will be immense.
From Philadelphia, to a point opposite Norristown, 18 miles, the road is yet unfinished. The traveller, for the present, leaves Philadelphia on the Norristown rail-road, and, at its termination, crosses over to the Reading road, which is completed from that point to Reading, a distance of forty miles. Between Reading and Pottsville, ground has just been broken; but, from the energy and success with which this great work has heretofore been prosecuted, there is no doubt but that it will steadily progress till completed.
This road all the way pursues the valley of the Schuylkill, being located on the southern side for thirty miles from Philadelphia, and then crossing to the northern. With a few exceptions, it conforms to all the windings of the river, and its location partakes of the same general nature as that of the Baltimore and Ohio rail-road along the valley of the Patapsco, except that the bends of the Schuylkill being generally less sudden and the valley wider, more gentle curves have been obtained throughout. There is no curve between Philadelphia and Reading with a radius less than 950 feet, and, with one or two exceptions, the curves have radii as much as 2000 feet, or more. The hills sometimes encroach on the river, confining the roadway, and causing either deep sidecutting, oftentimes through rock, or expensive walling on the river side. Near Phoenixville, the Schuylkill makes a circuitous bend of three miles, and returns to within half a mile of the place from which it set out, forming a bold promontory one and a half miles long, and only half a mile across the neck. To save the three miles of distance, and, at the same time, to avoid much bold curvature, it was determined to tunnel under this neck of land, which is a spur from the main ridge. This tunnel was commenced in 1835, and has been successfully carried through. It is the greatest work of the kind in America, and no man ought to visit Philadelphia without going to see this triumph of art. It is 1932 feet long, 19 feet wide, and 17 feet high, with an elliptical arch. It is cut through a dark-colored graywacke slate, from which it derives its name of "Black Rock tunnel." It was excavated from both ends as well as from six vertical shafts. These shafts are eight feet in diameter, and were sunk in pairs to enable the miners the better to keep the true line of direction. The deepest shaft is 140 feet deep. A true and accurate line has been obtained through the tunnel for the rail-road, showing-the accuracy with which it was excavated, and the greatest care and attention on the part of the resident engineer...
Immediately at the far end of Black Rock tunnel, and on a line with it, is a handsome bridge of hewn sandstone, across the Schuylkill, by means of which the rail-road crosses to the northern side of the river...
At the east end of Black Rock tunnel, is a long rock cut, 30 feet deep. The effect of passing rapidly in the train through this cut, the walls of which stand almost vertical, then through the tunnel, which, notwithstanding its 6 shafts, is as dark within as midnight, and dashing across the bridge to the opposite side of the river, with the sudden transition from darkness to light, all in a moment, can hardly be conceived.
Closer. Black Rock was opened in 1838. It is the 4th oldest.
The one I'm looking for opened in 1837. When it opened it had lots of riders who rode simply for the thrill of going thru a tunnel.
One other comment doesn't anyone read Trains?
New York and Harlem in the Bronx, subsequently partially but not completely daylighted and part of the "Harlem Cut" along the The Bronx's Park Avenue? The local station I think in Morrisania or something like that. South of the Fordham Road Station. The part of the tunnel that is still in use includes the station and the street crossing. Wait a miniute. About the same time or earlier the tunnel north of what became Grand Central Station and then later the location of Grand Central Terminal was constructed and put into use. At the time steam locomotives were running down to 29th Street with horses used between there and City Hall - Park Row. I think this double-track tunnel was around 57th Street as its center point, called the Murrey Hill Tunnel, and still in use for the middle two of the four tracks of the Park Avenue Metro North tunnel. The two single track tunnels for the outer tracks was constructed later, about the time the Grand Central Station was constructed, possibly about 1857. Today, you can still note that tracks one and two are in a double-track tunnel at that point and tracks 3 and 4, each in a single-track tunnel, one on each side of the double-track tunnel.
daveklepper Wait a miniute. About the same time or earlier the tunnel north of what became Grand Central Station and then later the location of Grand Central Terminal was constructed and put into use. At the time steam locomotives were running down to 29th Street with horses used between there and City Hall - Park Row. I think this double-track tunnel was around 57th Street as its center point, called the Murrey Hill Tunnel, and still in use for the middle two of the four tracks of the Park Avenue Metro North tunnel. The two single track tunnels for the outer tracks was constructed later, about the time the Grand Central Station was constructed, possibly about 1857. Today, you can still note that tracks one and two are in a double-track tunnel at that point and tracks 3 and 4, each in a single-track tunnel, one on each side of the double-track tunnel.
Wait a miniute. About the same time or earlier the tunnel north of what became Grand Central Station and then later the location of Grand Central Terminal was constructed and put into use. At the time steam locomotives were running down to 29th Street with horses used between there and City Hall - Park Row. I think this double-track tunnel was around 57th Street as its center point, called the Murrey Hill Tunnel, and still in use for the middle two of the four tracks of the Park Avenue Metro North tunnel. The two single track tunnels for the outer tracks was constructed later, about the time the Grand Central Station was constructed, possibly about 1857. Today, you can still note that tracks one and two are in a double-track tunnel at that point and tracks 3 and 4, each in a single-track tunnel, one on each side of the double-track tunnel.
Finally you got it Dave Klepper.
The tunnel is the Yorkville tunnel. The centre 2 tracks are part of the original Murray Hill tunnel. Opened in October 1837. When it opened many people rode thru just to for the thrill of traveling thru the tunnel.
Trains did an article about 2 years ago on the oldest railroad tunnels in the US. Also their are 3 older tunnels in the US. Of those only the one on the Allegheny Portage RR opened for service earlier.
PS I will add to this later.
Excerpt from A Description of the Cities, Townships and Principal Villages and Settlements within Thirty Miles of the City of New York (1839)
The Tunnel, which is on the line of the Harlaem railroad, is well worthy of a visit; it is cut through solid rock, commencing at the southerly side of Ninety-first street, and terminates at the northerly side of Ninety-fourth street; being 844 feet in length, 24 wide, and 21 feet high in the centre. Each end of the tunnel is finished with a handsome stone facing, and on the south side are commodious stairs, with an iron railing, ascending to the top of the hill. This tunnel is said to be as spacious as any other excavation of solid rock, made in modern times, not excepting the excavation of the Simplon, built under the direction of the Emperor Napoleon; and the approach to it from both ends, through a rock 52 feet in height, is an object almost as interesting as the tunnel itself.
Excerpt from American Railroad Journal (1837)
New-York and Harlem Railroad. - On passing over this road recently, we were agreeably surprised to find it so nearly completed.
Most, if not alll our readers, are aware of the nature of the work and its difficulties. The greatest of these is the tunnel through Prospect Hill. This and the adjoining deep cuts are there a work of unusual hardness, but are now completed with exception of the dressing off, on the bottom and sides.
We happened to be present while several blasts were made near the centre of the tunnel, which on this occasion became a mighty air gun. The curious ringing and reverberations cannot be described to one who did not hear them.
We found the cars running from the north side of the tunnel to the termination of the road at 125th street, so that with the exception of the tunnel and a small portion of the cut on either side, the whole road is now actually in use.
We were pleased with the neat finish given to much of the new work upon the road. The bridge over Harlem Creek is a handsome and substantial structure on the lattice plan.
The company are also adding to the finish and safety of the road by substantial slope walls along the whole line of earth excavation.
We understand that it is intended to run the cars from Walker street to 125th street, the entire length of the road, before the end of September.
This arrangement will be as much to the profit of the company, as to the benefit of individuals residing or doing business in the upper part of the city.
The new depot on 42th street with its ample stock of substantial and elegant cars, gives proof of the endeavor to meet the public wants.
At present we know of no route more interesting to a stranger or citizen than a ride over this road - The tunnel alone is worth a journey - while the view from the upper portion of the road is very beautiful. Harlem and Manhattanville and the line of houses between them resemble the germ of some great city, while the Bloomingdale Asylum, the mansions of several of our citizens, together with the remains of the old fortifications, on the surrounding heights, give quite an imposing aspect to the borders of the valley. To complete the view the background is made by the palisades and banks of the Hudson.
On the other side the view over Hell Gate and the East river is quite as beautiful, though different in character.
The green fields of Long Island and the constant play of steamboats over the intervening expanse of water, are in very pleasing contrast with the sterner heights of the North River.
Those to whom this road offers convenience for transit have already made trial of its merits, and we advice strangers and lovers of variety to do the same.
When New York City opened its first rapid transit subway, as opposed to the streetcar subways of Boston and Park Avenue South in New York City (the latter given as a "gift" to the City as the Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel with the replacement buses running on the street above, today's M1 Manhattan bus line), the basic dimensions of the rolling stock duplicated those of the elevated lines also absorbed into the IRT's system. But the BMT did not follow suite, and its subway lines were in part constructed so as to handle the normal railway freight cars of the time (the 4th Avenue Brooklyn Subway) and accomodate the normal ten-foot width of railway passenger cars. (For many years the South Brooklyn Railway, a subsidiary of the BMT and then the New YOrk City Transit Authority, handled freight cars on elevated and streetcar lines in Broklyn, and there was an intent to move some of this traffic into the 4th Avenue subway, but this happend only rarely. Stillwell designed the steel standard cars, which ended up as A cars, single cars, cabs at both ends, B cars, in three-car formation all motor cars, cabs only at ends, BX, same bu ttow car formation, and BT, the center car a non-motered trailer. And these cars were 69 feet long, considerably longer than the IRT cars and the elevated cars on both the BMT and IRT. (The actual oprations of the BMT prior to the bankrupcy brought on by the Malbone Street disaster, made it at the time the Brooklyn Rpid Transit Company, even though it di run itno Queens and Manhattan.)
But large subway cars in the USA preceded the BMT steels by one year. Which city and which line? End points of the lien when served by the original cars, and name of the line currently.
Was this in Philadelphia?
A different location. True, the Broad Street subway was opened with BMT-type equipment, but this came later than the first operation of the BMT steels in passenger service in 1915. The first operation of the BMT steels was is shuttle service as single cars between 62nd Street and New Utrecht Avenue, and a transfer to the West Ebnd line which was still running with trolley pole elevated cars on the street, to Coney Island. Then the 4th Avenue subway opened and trains ran to and from Coney Island to and from Chambers Street, Center Street, Park Row, Manahttan via the two south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge. The West End Elevated over New Utrecht Avenue was opened about two years later, along with the Broadway Manhattan subway, with West End trains running to 14th Street Union Square. About the same time, the underground terminal of the Williamsburg Bridge at Essex and Delancy Street, a subway station opened by the BRT (later the BMT) in 1903 before the IRT opening, but just one station, not really a subway line, was connected to the Chambers Street terminal, which remained a terminal until the Nassau Street line was built in 1921 to Fulton St. Broad Street, and a connection to the Montague Street tunnel to form the "Nassau Loop." Composite open gate elevated cars used this Center Street Subway for some time until their were enough steel cars, with the arrival of the Triplex D-Types in 1926-1927. The subway line that used the first large subway cars opened before the first public operation of the BRT-BMT "steels." Perhaps I should not call it a subway line, but it certainly is one in every respect.
Surprised there is no correct answer given as of now. How many cities did North America have with heavy rapid transit lines at the time the first BMT subway opened? Exactly four, no more, and one had yet to start construction of a subway line.
Philadelphia did have a subway line when the first steel BMT cars went into service on Brooklyn's Sea Beach line. But it was the Market Street Elevated's downtown subway, and their cars were not much larger than the IRT's. Despite the wider Philadelphia "trolley gauge" tracks. (And Broad Street has the winder longer car with standard gauge,)
Dave Klepper: Sir as I recall thru the mid 1960's there were 4 cities with transit lines in the US Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago.
In addition several cities had subway(or underground) for streetcar and/or interurban lines. Boston,Newark, Washington DC(?), Cleveland, Cincinatti, St Louis, Dallas(Leonards department store), Los Angeles(PE).
I'm not sure about DC though.(may have been a proposal that I read about).
Trying to think were else. Nothing comes to mind.
In 1915, the four cities that had heavy rapid transit systems were the same as in 1960, in order of start-up, New York, Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia. One of these did not have any rapid transit subway lines in 1915. Philadelphia had only the Market Street line, at the time, with cars similar in dimensions to those of the IRT. So that leaves only one city. The fact that the line today serves two prominent educational institutions is obvious to anyone riding the line today.
Pardon me, actually three important education institutions, with all three included in the three stations' names, today, with one included in the name in the original pre-1915 opening of the original service, but two actually served in the original service.
The cars were 71 feet long and 10 feet wide. Ditto all the subsequent cars.
Given the hints, very surprised no one has the correct answer yet. Should I give the answer and ask a new question?
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