It was not my understanding that my answer was correct, though I'll be happy to come up with a question. Let me know.
The Midland Terminal was already in existence as a connecting line for the CM, having been incorporated in the late 1880's. It connected with the CM at Divice, Colorado, and ran from there to Cripple Creek. It originally leased, then, when it became apparent that the CM would not be revived, bought the CM's line from Colorado Springs to Divide and operated it until February 1949, when the Golden Cycle mill in Cripple Creek opened, eliminating the need for the railroad.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
"Divice" in the previous post should read "Divide."
Caught that typo just as I hit the "post" button.
Bob
Thanks for the correction on the Midland Terminal. I should have written Divide and not Leadville. Also, it is true that Rifle - Grand Junction was joint track of both D&RG (no W then) and CM, and now hosts the CZ. But the jointly owned comoplete railroad was really the entire Rio Grande Western, from Grand Junction to Salt Lake City. This was not complete a D&RG subsidiary at the time, as the CM had contributed to the cost of converting it from narrow to standard gauge, so its (CM's) trains could run through to Salt Lake City, as well as those of the D&RG. Again, CZ territory today. Sometime after the CM abandonment, the D&G and RGW merged to form the D&RGW.
CM was definitely the answer I was requesting, and I will look forward to your question.
As I said, the CM is a fascinating road to study.
Now for the next question: What all-Pullman and all-coach trains operated on the identical schedule? I'm not talking about the same running time, but the identical departure and arrival times throughout the entire run. I'm aware of only one set of trains where this situation prevailed.
The Super Chief and El Capitan. For most of their history the Super Chief was all first-class and El Cap was all coach. They had exactly the same schedules. Now, how two bodies can occupy the same space at the same time is beyond me, but it helps a little to think of them as being two "sections" of the same Chicago - L.A. train. In the Sixties the two trains were combined but IIRC kept the separate Super Chief designation for the Pullman haul, and El Cap for the coaches. All that went out when Amtrak took over in 1971.
That may be true, but those trains operated as separate schedules much of the year and combined part of the time. These are not the ones I have in mind as they never had separate schedules, to my knowledge.
AWP290 That may be true, but those trains operated as separate schedules much of the year and combined part of the time. These are not the ones I have in mind as they never had separate schedules, to my knowledge. Bob
Can you give us a time span for the operation of the two trains you have in mind?
Johnny
Johnny makes a good point. Actually, for years, the train(s) ran combined in the off-season but went separate in the high season of summer. The Santa Fe actively courted Boy Scout travel on El Cap from Chicago to the station for Philmont, a huge camp of theirs. I am told that in the 1960s the ATSF Chicago - L.A. route actually picked up a few passengers from other lines that were no longer offering thru Chicago - L.A. (or S.F.) service (Rock Island comes to mind). The Philmont connection may have added to that load (ca. 1966) but I don't really know. I can tell you that ATSF advertised like crazy in the mid-Sixties in Boy's Life, the magazine for all (male) Scouts.
But if it isn't what you're looking for, well, I agree with Johnny, couldn't we have a time span or some kind of hint? Origin or way station maybe?? - al
The point is, they did operate as separate trains at times. The ones I have in mind did not ever, to my knowledge, do so.
Dates of operation were early 1960's until Amtrak.
If I gave you the end points, you'd know the trains right away.
I'll give you this hint - they were not transcontinental trains.
AWP290 If I gave you the end points, you'd know the trains right away. I'll give you this hint - they were not transcontinental trains. Bob
Is it by any chance the combined Zephyr - Rocket, St. Louis to Minneapolis??
No.
This train (or trains) was/were operated by only one railroad.
Let me clarify. There were two trains advertised, two names, but only one consist, and one schedule.
That should virtually give it away.
AWP290 No. This train (or trains) was/were operated by only one railroad. Let me clarify. There were two trains advertised, two names, but only one consist, and one schedule. That should virtually give it away. Bob
Al - in - Stockton
Bingo!
Give that man a cigar.
The all-Pullman Panama Limited and the all-coach Magnolia Star (you gotta love that name!) were one and the same train. Behind the diner, the train was the former and ahead of it, the latter. The IC didn't want to sully the Panama with coaches, so it created the Star to, at least nominally, handle the coach traffic.
They may not have wanted to sully the Panama with coaches, but I know a fellow who sullied it with a carload of cotton from Memphis to New Orleans. Imagine - turning the Panama Limited into a mixed train! He got a phone call from Wayne Johnston's office the following day.
Over to you, Al, for the next question.
Name the all Pullman trains west of the Mississippi River prior to WW II?
Al in Stockton
passengerfanName the all Pullman trains west of the Mississippi River prior to WW II?
Of the latter there is the Santa Fe original California Limited, Deluxe, Chief, and the Super Chief. All of the others I can think of (Oriental Limited, Hiawatha, Empire Builder, CZ, NCL, and even the City of San Fransisco) had coaches in them.
Of the former I believe the Oriental Limited was all Pullman built. At least one (possibly 2) of the Chiefs was all Pullman - if you don't count the transfer through cars from Pennsy & NYC. The 1938 Super Chief was all Pullman equipment with subsequent sleepers built by PC&M. Later Super Chiefs used some Budd equipment(1951). The 1892 California Limited was 100% Pullman built.
I'll lead off with these trains: Chief, Super Chief, Lark.
CSSHEGEWISCH I'll lead off with these trains: Chief, Super Chief, Lark.
SPs Cascade was all Pullman in 1937.
SP Sunset Limited was when it was first started, but I do not know if that carried forward into the streamline era or not.
UP Pacific Limited and Portland Rose - I know coaches were included after 1947 when they were combined, but I don't know if they were streamlined before this happened.
The RI/SP Arizona Limited.
ZephyrOverland The RI/SP Arizona Limited.
The three you mentioned Texas Zephyr were all heavyweights prior to WW II.
I guess everyone is waiting for a hint/ The two remaining all pullman streamlined trains that operated west of the Mississippi River prior to WW II both operated between the same city pairs.
passengerfanThe three you mentioned Texas Zephyr were all heavyweights prior to WW II.
Ok, I have an unreliable source that says the UP Forty-Niner was all Pullman and streamlined. That was between Chicago and San Francisco. A different reference refers to "Daily operation of the all-coach and the all-Pullman City trains between Chicago and Los Angeles-San Francisco-Portland,..." So I am going to guess the City of San Francisco was at one time all-Pullman (even though the M-10002 had a coach section in the round end observation car).
Texas Zepher passengerfanThe three you mentioned Texas Zephyr were all heavyweights prior to WW II.Yup that WWII thing keeps biting me, the Cascade was all Pullman AND streamlined August 13th 1950. It lost its all Pullman status in October (the 11th to be exact) of that same year when two coaches were added to the consist. Ok, I have an unreliable source that says the UP Forty-Niner was all Pullman and streamlined. That was between Chicago and San Francisco. A different reference refers to "Daily operation of the all-coach and the all-Pullman City trains between Chicago and Los Angeles-San Francisco-Portland,..." So I am going to guess the City of San Francisco was at one time all-Pullman (even though the M-10002 had a coach section in the round end observation car).
OK. The original streamlined Prospector, the overnight D&RGW train between Denver and Salt Lake City, was I believe an articulated self-propelled diesel electric railcar. Like other streamlined compact semi-doodlebugs of the era. Possibly two such for daily service, otherwise running thrice weekly. But if I remember what made it unique is that it was all-Pullman, with nothing but sections and possibly one or two private rooms instead of coach seats. And a compact meal-serving section. Is my memory correct? I do remember that it often did arrive at one or the other terminal behind a steam locomotive because of a power plant or tranmsission problem.. Right after WWII started it was replaced by a conventional heavywieght coach and Pullman steam-hauled train because of increased traffic demands, then this was replaced by lightweight equipment, much from the C&O Chessie order, after deisel power had been applied.
passengerfan Texas Zepher passengerfanThe three you mentioned Texas Zephyr were all heavyweights prior to WW II.Yup that WWII thing keeps biting me, the Cascade was all Pullman AND streamlined August 13th 1950. It lost its all Pullman status in October (the 11th to be exact) of that same year when two coaches were added to the consist. Ok, I have an unreliable source that says the UP Forty-Niner was all Pullman and streamlined. That was between Chicago and San Francisco. A different reference refers to "Daily operation of the all-coach and the all-Pullman City trains between Chicago and Los Angeles-San Francisco-Portland,..." So I am going to guess the City of San Francisco was at one time all-Pullman (even though the M-10002 had a coach section in the round end observation car). The Forty Niner is correct but the City of San Francisco is not. So we still have one to go. Al - in - Stockton
I could not find or think of any of any other pre-war streamlined all sleeper trains besides those already named, and knowing of the heavyweight cars on the the two Chicago-Oakland trains, I did not think of them until you named the Forty Niner.
It is really interesting to see how the railroads moved to the concept of lighter weight and streamlined equipment in their search to increase passenger patronage.
daveklepper OK. The original streamlined Prospector, the overnight D&RGW train between Denver and Salt Lake City, was I believe an articulated self-propelled diesel electric railcar. Like other streamlined compact semi-doodlebugs of the era. Possibly two such for daily service, otherwise running thrice weekly. But if I remember what made it unique is that it was all-Pullman, with nothing but sections and possibly one or two private rooms instead of coach seats. And a compact meal-serving section. Is my memory correct? I do remember that it often did arrive at one or the other terminal behind a steam locomotive because of a power plant or tranmsission problem.. Right after WWII started it was replaced by a conventional heavywieght coach and Pullman steam-hauled train because of increased traffic demands, then this was replaced by lightweight equipment, much from the C&O Chessie order, after deisel power had been applied.
Johnny I did consider the Forty Niner because my criteria was streamlined and the heavyweight cars were streamlined for this service. The UP power for this train was also streamlined steam a Pacific between Omaha and Cheyenne and a Mountain from Cheyenne to Ogden. The other train I am thinking about was for all intents and purposes streamlined except for the Dining and Baggage Dormitory car.
passengerfan The Forty Niner is correct but the City of San Francisco is not. So we still have one to go.
In an book, Southern Pacific Passenger Trains, I found, "[speaking of the Forty-Niner]...streamlined all-Pullmand tran that also operated about ever six days. On May 22, 1940, the Treasure Island Special debuted as a summer schedule extra-fare service between Chicago and the Bay Area. According to the April 20, 1940 Railway Age, it carried a baggage car, six lighweight Pullman sleepers, a dining car, and a loung observiation, Its livery was a light grey ...."
So since there are no coaches listed in the consist, I deduce that it is an all-Pullman train.
Treasure Island Special it is. So I guess the next question is yours.
Which Trains carried 56-seat coaches (chair cars) that from the original manufacturer (not a rebuild) had a nurse's room in them? What company built the cars?
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