The three major players in the Chicago - T%wi8n Cities market were the CB&Q, CMStP&P aznd CNW. BUt at one time there was a fourth. Chicago Great Western?, CRI&P? CGW ended alkl passenger service long before other,and seems likely to be part of the full answer.
Or the SOO?
In the absense oif vanyone else
I don't think this answers the question. CGW's Legionaire/Minnesotan was dropped in 1955, the Soo's Laker connection went in 1965 with the rest of the Laker- after C&NW's 400 and North Western Limited (1963). CB&Q/BN service remained to the end and MILW is still there. The only other was IC/M&StL's sevice that fizzled out before WWII.
daveklepper The three major players in the Chicago - T%wi8n Cities market were the CB&Q, CMStP&P aznd CNW. BUt at one time there was a fourth. Chicago Great Western?, CRI&P? CGW ended alkl passenger service long before other,and seems likely to be part of the full answer. Or the SOO?
You're in the right neighborhood, in that it's in the midwest, but you're on the wrong route.
Also, I need to make a small modification to my original question -
The train name I'm looking for evolved from a name used on a heavyweight train on the same route that was discontinued in the early 1940s. Another variation of the orignal name was used over a decade later on a new overnight train, not a daytime train as originally stated.
The C&EI bought a bunch of cars in the early 1950s, some intended for Chicago-Cypress, some for Chicago-Evansville. It's possible they were actually intended for a Chicago-St. Louis train using the prewar Zipper name to replace the Cardinal. Eventually the Chicago-Evansville service was reduced to through Dixie Route trains, and the Chicago-West Vienna (Cypress) Meadowlark was replaced by an RDC-1.
rcdrye The C&EI bought a bunch of cars in the early 1950s, some intended for Chicago-Cypress, some for Chicago-Evansville. It's possible they were actually intended for a Chicago-St. Louis train using the prewar Zipper name to replace the Cardinal. Eventually the Chicago-Evansville service was reduced to through Dixie Route trains, and the Chicago-West Vienna (Cypress) Meadowlark was replaced by an RDC-1.
Right region, but wrong direction.
From what I understand, C&EI's St. Louis service was a problem child since it began in 1904. Of the four routes providing Chicago-St. Louis service, it had the lowest patronage and fewest number of trains operated. The postwar lightweight cars C&EI bought were directed to its Evansville and Southern Illinois services - from what I can tell C&EI had no firm plans to modernize its St. Louis service. In relation to my question, by the time plans were announced concerning the new train I'm looking for, C&EI's Cardinal was running its last miles, discontinued in April 1949.
One more try. B&O built cars for a Baltimore-Cincinnati day train, and ran it for a matter of months before diverting it to a Detroit-Cincinnati route (The Cincinnatian in both cases). The Baltimore-Cincinnati-St Louis route was downgraded to a single through train plus a "mail train" by late 1948. Ironically the Mail Train (the Metropolitan) survived until the end of B&O passenger operations.
The equipment purchased for a daytime Baltimore-Washington-Chicago service entered overnight service as the overnight Columbian.
The Columbian's coach-only schedule was close enough to the all-Pullman Capitol Limited's schedule that the two trains were often combined, although they were listed separately through the 1950s.
But Rc, "beyond end-points?"
Does the question involve the Illinois Terminal?
rcdrye One more try. B&O built cars for a Baltimore-Cincinnati day train, and ran it for a matter of months before diverting it to a Detroit-Cincinnati route (The Cincinnatian in both cases). The Baltimore-Cincinnati-St Louis route was downgraded to a single through train plus a "mail train" by late 1948. Ironically the Mail Train (the Metropolitan) survived until the end of B&O passenger operations. The equipment purchased for a daytime Baltimore-Washington-Chicago service entered overnight service as the overnight Columbian. The Columbian's coach-only schedule was close enough to the all-Pullman Capitol Limited's schedule that the two trains were often combined, although they were listed separately through the 1950s.
Nice try, but no. As you mention, the Cincinnatian had its route switched, but the train I'm looking for basically had the same endpoints in all three versions: the heavyweight predesessor, the proposed train I'm looking for, and the resulting overnight train whose name used a variation of the other two names.
As for the Columbian, true, the Jersey City-Washington-Chicago train originally was intended to be a dayliner, but ended up being an overnighter. But the route of the heavyweight Columbian was only Jersey City-Washington.
Here are some more clues:
- The heavyweight version of the train was discontinued in 1942.
- The resulting overnight train that utilized a variation of the name of the proposed train was installed after a number of trains that operated beyond the proposed train endpoints were switched to another railroad.
daveklepper But Rc, "beyond end-points?" Does the question involve the Illinois Terminal?
No it does not involve the Illinois Terminal. See above for additional clues.
Florida - Midwest service?
daveklepper Florida - Midwest service?
No. The train I'm looking for was supposed to operate on a midwest regional railroad entirely on its own rails.
Where are the C&NW mavens when you need them?
My 1957 Official Guide is not much help here... The C&NW's "Omahan" was a day train, as was the "Kate Shelley 400". Overnight 5 and 6 had no name, carried prewar 6-6-4 sleepers. It did follow (more or less) the schedule of the prewar "Corn King Limited" which ran as 11 and 22.
Overmod Where are the C&NW mavens when you need them?
No kidding!!!
rcdrye My 1957 Official Guide is not much help here... The C&NW's "Omahan" was a day train, as was the "Kate Shelley 400". Overnight 5 and 6 had no name, carried prewar 6-6-4 sleepers. It did follow (more or less) the schedule of the prewar "Corn King Limited" which ran as 11 and 22.
You're dancing with the answer....
Well, there was the "Nightingale" on the Omaha Road between the Twin Cities and Omaha...
My attempt to brute-force this by looking for named trains discontinued in 1942 went nowhere.
The Corn King Limited also ran Chicago-Sioux City. Post-1955 service dried up there pretty fast. The Chicago-Omaha overnighter lasted until at least 1960, and the Kate Shelley 400 until A-Day.
C&NW's last two steam-equipped passenger locomotives, E7As, were kept around for the "Kate" until the end of service.
rcdrye The Corn King Limited also ran Chicago-Sioux City. Post-1955 service dried up there pretty fast. The Chicago-Omaha overnighter lasted until at least 1960, and the Kate Shelley 400 until A-Day. C&NW's last two steam-equipped passenger locomotives, E7As, were kept around for the "Kate" until the end of service.
You're still dancing with the answer, but, since this question has been around for more than a week (and since I'm going out of town for a few weeks), I want to close this question out.
The answer I was looking for the proposed train was:
Corn King "400" Chicago-Omaha/Sioux City
Back in the "Good Ole Days", despite the number of passenger trains out there at the time, there were some cities whose passenger train offerings far exceeded their passenger loadings, simply because a majority of those trains traveled far beyond those cities. Kansas City, Omaha and Minneapolis-St. Paul come to mind. The subject of this question, Omaha, had at one time six railroads running trains to, but mostly through the city. The fact that UP began at Council Bluffs was a major factor for CNW (and Milwaukee Road to a lesser extent). Dedicated Chicago-Omaha service was limited to a few local trains, but competition was such in the 1920's that most of the competitors offered deluxe overnight trains to serve this market: C&NW - Corn King Limited (with service to Sioux City), Milwaukee Road - Arrow. CB&Q - Ak-Sar-Ben (running to Lincoln), RI - Iowa-Nebraska Limited (also running to Lincoln), IC - Hawkeye Limited (also serving Sioux City and Sioux Falls). Chicago Great Western only had a local Chicago-Omaha schedule what was not competitve with the other lines.
CNW's Corn King Limited was established in 1928 and was originally touted as an equal to its Minneapolis overnighter, the North Western Limited. Unfortunately, the Corn King Limited had to jostle with the Overland Route trains C&NW was running at the time. Those UP-bound trains were generally faster than the Corn King, but the train schedule was structured for a more comfortable ride, leaving after dinner time and getting to its endpoints at a decent morning hour. This train was discontinued early 1942, most likely reflecting C&NW's importance as an Overland Route partner and the need to free up schedules for the through traffic.
In the late 1940s, wartime traffic loads were decreasing, and most railroads were focusing on rehabbing their physical plants, preparing for postwar prosperity. C&NW was not one of them. H. Roger Grant's book about the C&NW details what happened, but suffice it to say that there was a lack of leadership in preparing the C&NW for a postwar environment. As a result, its physical plant was starting to suffer. Instead of dealing with this issue, C&NW wanted to extend its "400" brand to its Omaha line, by proposing the Corn King "400", a new Chicago-Omaha/Sioux City daytime streamliner, to complete with Milwaukee Road's Midwest Hiawatha, among other trains. Announcements were made in late 1948, some ad blurbs were released and some Pullman-Standard equipment was built for the new train, but nothing came of it. Instead, Overland Route schedules were being pruned or modified. As a result, C&NW contiunued to offer only local Omaha daytime service with unnamed trains #13 and #14, but local overnight service was available with the Gold Coast and Pacific.
Better daytime schedules (at least westbound) came with the speeding up of the Los Angeles Limited around 1950, leaving Chicago at noon for a 9 hour trip to Omaha. In 1954 the Los Angeles Limited was replaced with a revivied Challenger, leaving Chicago at 9:00 am for an eight hour run to Omaha.
C&NW's deterioring physical plant came to haunt the carrier, when in 1955, UP cancelled its contract with C&NW, switching its Overland Route trains to Milwaukee Road (and further pruning some of UP's secondary trains in the process). As a result, C&NW revamped its Omaha service on October 30, 1955 with #3 and #4, the daytime Omahan, #5 and #6 - unnamed overnight trains and #7 and #8 - a revived Corn King (this time without the "Limited") on an additional overnight schedule. Why two overnight trains each way? Maybe C&NW thought they would still handle UP's Mail and Express traffic. Whatever the reason, this version of the Corn King lasted only for about a year, until October 28, 1956. At the same time the Chicago-Boone Kate Shelley "400" was established but soon was cut back, first to Cedar Rapids and then to Clinton, Ia. At this time Ben Heineman came to the helm of the C&NW, and on his watch the necessary investments were made to rehab the road's physical plant, but also make the necessary cutbacks to passenger train services, head count and route miles. Eventually, C&NW's Omaha line offered a single Chicago-Clinton, Ia train, the remains of the Kate Shelley "400."
Rcdrye, the next question is yours.
It's easy enough to find records of the equipment ordered for the "Corn King 400" but not much material on the planned train has made into searchable archives...
One of the longest-distance name trains operated in North America was upgraded after WWII. The train was more like a system, with connecting versions fanning out to several destinations. The name of the train was originally to changed to reflect the brand of one of the railroad's streamliners, while retaining its general name. In the end the whole name of the train was changed but through operation lasted less than two years. The breakup resulted in three name trains running end-to-end, two of which had the middle railroad's streamliner brand as part of the train names. All three trains continued in some form until the mid-1960s. Give the name of the orignal train(s), and the three railroads involved.
One of the railroads operated sections over affiliates and subsidiaries, but the main railroad system name is the only one I'm looking for.
Is this the 'City of Everywhere'?
Close - except that the City of Everywhere and its components retained their endpoints, with MILW's connecting trains carrying the same names.
The streamliner brand involve was closely associated with one railroad system - the "middle" of the name train's railroads. The original train began was heavyweight, the premier train of the middle railroad system. In the end the service was split into three pieces:
The first carried cars for the second, and also other railroads heading to the same area. Before the split it carried the same name as the second part. It survived as a name train until Amtrak.
The second part fanned out cars to various places in its name (and a couple of points beyond it). It lost most of its existence in the late 1960s and was cut back after Pullman ended operations, but still lasted until Amtrak.
The third ran beyond the end of the second. Despite the streamliner name it was largely heavywight until it got new equipment in the early 1960s, later replaced. The third was by far the longest lasting of the three sections.
Did the original heavyweight have one train-name, retained after some post-WWII lightweight equipment included, and then have a complete name change when all-streamlined?
daveklepper Did the original heavyweight have one train-name, retained after some post-WWII lightweight equipment included, and then have a complete name change when all-streamlined?
rcdrye One of the longest-distance name trains operated in North America was upgraded after WWII. The train was more like a system, with connecting versions fanning out to several destinations. The name of the train was originally to changed to reflect the brand of one of the railroad's streamliners, while retaining its general name. In the end the whole name of the train was changed but through operation lasted less than two years. The breakup resulted in three name trains running end-to-end, two of which had the middle railroad's streamliner brand as part of the train names. All three trains continued in some form until the mid-1960s. Give the name of the orignal train(s), and the three railroads involved. One of the railroads operated sections over affiliates and subsidiaries, but the main railroad system name is the only one I'm looking for.
Is this the MP-T&P Sunshine Special, especially when PRR was involved in operating a through New York-Texas Sunshine?
Initially, MP was planning to upgrade the Sunshine Special with new equipment and a modified name: The Sunshine Eagle. But, because of changes in the passenger train business environment, the proposed Sunshine Eagle became the Texas Eagle, PRR pulled out of running a through NY-Texas operation (although they still handled through NY-Texas sleepers), renaming their portion the Penn Texas, and the original Sunshine Special was essentially downgraded to a secondary train.
That's what I was looking for. The re-labelled Sunshine Special train operated as the Texas Eagle for about 2 months, then was split. PRR still had a fair collection of sleepers in "Eagle" paint which were used on the Penn Texas, but the train also carried Frisco/MKT sleepers. Through cars to Mexico from New York (NdeM was advertised as part of the Sunshine Special) were cut back to San Antonio-Mexico City.
New York Central through cars to Texas and Mexico via the Southwest Limited ended in 1949.
The Penn Texas carried through cars to Texas up to 1961, when the last through MP sleeper was dropped. It remained as the second-tier train on the New York-St. Louis run behind the "Spirit of St. Louis". Penn Central dropped the eastbound "Spirit of St. Louis" and westbound Penn Texas and combined the eastbound Penn Texas with the Cincinnati Limited. Trains 31 and 4 survived to become Amtrak's "National Limited". Train 4 was inconsistently listed in PC public timetables as the Penn Texas or the Spirit of St. Louis. The National Limited suffered through almost a decade of atrocious PC trackwork and was discontinued in 1979 just as Conrail improvements made being on time actually possible.
A new question is coming in a week, since I'm still out of town.
In 1937, PRR established the General, a train that matched the speed of the line's Broadway Limited without the latter's pretentiousness. A few years later another railroad established, not one, but two trains that utilized the same Army rank in its name but on a more atomic level, names that referred to specific individuals. The trains shared a common endpoint, but you could have ridden both of these trains consecutively only one way. The railroad, the two trains and their endpoints, please.
General Custer and General Pershing (Zephyr) on the Q?
If so, the common endpoint is Kansas City; Zephyr got there from St. Louis; Custer from Seattle/Portland.
Overmod General Custer and General Pershing (Zephyr) on the Q? If so, the common endpoint is Kansas City; Zephyr got there from St. Louis; Custer from Seattle/Portland.
Yes you're right. Westbound the General Custer had a morning departure from KC, whereas the General Pershing Zephyr got into KC in the evening. Eastbound, the General Custer got into KC in the morning, allowing a conection to the GPZ. The General Custer operated Kansas City-Billings only, connecting with GN and NP trains west to Seattle and Portland.
Overmod, the floor is yours...
Name a railroad that had two name trains, for a considerable period of time, with exactly the same name but in very different places and routes.
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