Fighting the login wars, one cookie at a time.
Just as a peripheral note: the Michelin issues weren't exactly with the flanges, but with the underlying physical principle. The tread was made so it would cup around the railhead, with the part of the tire corresponding to the shoulders doing most of the lateral alignment. This is nifty French engineering ... when you are tracking straight smooth rails. Things start to degrade somewhat when you have frequent low joints that can (among other things) cause seps in a heavily-loaded contact patch. The real problem starts with where the necessary 'backup' flange goes, and what it does when lateral (either on a curve or due to truck/bogie dynamics) forces the tire up onto the 'inside' shoulder and theninto flange contact with accelerated impact combined with tire bounce. You can probably appreciate the possibility of resonance at certain speeds -- anyone here familiar with harmonic rock on Alco Hi-Ad trucks?
Meanwhile, similar issues come up when negotiating frogs and switch points at speed. The amount of deflection of the tread directly concerns how wide the tire can be between shoulders 'when deflected' and this in turn pegs both the flange spacing and permissible flange width fairly dramatically ... and not at all well.
A fairly quick "improvement" was to make the whole wheelrim solid and put the air-chamber "tire" as a sort of elastic sidewall between the rim and the wheel proper. The big catch here was lateral flexibility of the sidewalls -- and integrity of the rubber compounds and cordage used in the carcass fabrication. It is not terribly surprising that these ingenious vehicles were built and promoted with some vigor ... and then quietly made to disappear when it began to be clear why many of the problems had no real economically-practical solution...
Great stuff...thanks RME...explains a lot.
There was a topic, way back that I found, on this subject pertaining to the question.
"According to Pullman, the last wooden bodied cars built for its own general service were 10 sleepers in lot 3808, in 1910"
Not sure if wooden bodied means steel under frames. Also this answer specifies "for its own service" and not for someone else. That is what I have to date on this.
All the latter Pullman wood cars had steel underframes, beginning at least by 1900.
ZephyrOverlandWhen was the last all-wooden Pullman sleeper built? What was its name and initial railroad assignment?
Does this include the Sessions composite ends, or plate-truss construction? Or do you mean 'before the introduction of full steel underframing'?
I do not by any means have at my fingertips the various dates for the addition of steel elements to what remained basically wood car bodies up to full steel construction. But yes, there is no doubt that the last wood-bodied Pullmans had center and side sills and drawbar carries and body bolsters of steel. Unsure of the vestibule construction. Probably you know more about that than I do.
As you know, the very first all-steel cars were the 1904 Gibbs cars for the LIRR and IRT, mu motor cars. At that time, the IRT already had composite cars of similar configuration, but still basically wood bodies. These did have steel ends as well as underframes.
Excerpt from More Classic Trains by Arthur D. Dubin
The last wooden Pullman car was the Percivale, built in March 1910 for service on the Pennsylvania. The simply ornamented wood sheathing was painted Tuscan red. The interior featured full Empire ceiling, curved mahogany berth fronts,electric lighting, and electric fans at each end of car. This was the first use of green plush with a tulip pattern.
Excerpt from The American Railroad Passenger Car by John H. White
The Pennsylvania Railroad’s commitment to steel cars in 1907 was the beginning of the end of steel construction. New orders for wooden passenger equipment plummeted. In 1909 just over one-half of new orders were for wooden cars. By the next year, orders were down to 29 percent of the total. In 1912 only 276 all-wooden cars were built, and many of these were for Canadian lines. The following year the last all-wooden passenger cars were produced for domestic service. After this time the only cars with wooden bodies were built for export, and most of them had steel frames.
wanswheel Excerpt from More Classic Trains by Arthur D. Dubin The last wooden Pullman car was the Percivale, built in March 1910 for service on the Pennsylvania. The simply ornamented wood sheathing was painted Tuscan red. The interior featured full Empire ceiling, curved mahogany berth fronts,electric lighting, and electric fans at each end of car. This was the first use of green plush with a tulip pattern. Excerpt from The American Railroad Passenger Car by John H. White The Pennsylvania Railroad’s commitment to steel cars in 1907 was the beginning of the end of steel construction. New orders for wooden passenger equipment plummeted. In 1909 just over one-half of new orders were for wooden cars. By the next year, orders were down to 29 percent of the total. In 1912 only 276 all-wooden cars were built, and many of these were for Canadian lines. The following year the last all-wooden passenger cars were produced for domestic service. After this time the only cars with wooden bodies were built for export, and most of them had steel frames.
Interesting set of responses. Wanswheel gave the answer I was looking for with the Percivale, but the excerpt from White and input from others indicates that maybe I should have asked the question in a more qualified manner. Live and learn.
Wanswheel, your turn.
100 years ago, while the 20th Century Limited was on "The Water Level Route,” the Broadway Limited was on "The [2 words] Route.”
I am going to guess the "Broad Way" route. By the way, my wife visited Hershey, PA via Amtrak. The Horseshoe Curve is great!!!
Ed Burns
wanswheel100 years ago, while the 20th Century Limited was on "The Water Level Route,” the Broadway Limited was on "The [2 words] Route.”
That would be just after Mr. Stewart took over the direction of the advertising department in February.
If "The Water Level Route" was the official name given by NYC in its advertising, the counterpart at that time would be "The Standard Railroad of the World". But I don't know the exact date in 1916 that slogan was adopted.
wanswheel has provided advertising with the "Broad Way" name in it (in other threads) and might be able to demonstrate the phrase as a slogan for advertising in the period immediately prior to the Government takeover, celebrating the massive infrastructure improvements of the immediate preceding decade or so.
Ed, no Way (and no Broad), but you're right the words are 5 and 3 letters long.
wanswheel 100 years ago, while the 20th Century Limited was on "The Water Level Route,” the Broadway Limited was on "The [2 words] Route.”
It would be "The Steel Car Route", which is somewhat ironic, since only six years previous they were assigned the last newly built Pullman wood bodied sleeper.
Myron, yes of course. Your turn again.
wanswheel Myron, yes of course. Your turn again.
Appearantly at this time PRR was enamored with this material, because at the time of this ad, with the short-lived marketing phrase, PRR referred to this alloy in the naming of a newly installed train.
Train name and endpoints, please.
I was going to complain that use of that slogan in 1917 doesn't count as the "100 years" -- but I find they used it in Scientific American in May 1916 -- so yes.
wanswheel 100 years ago
100 years ago
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1916-08-02/ed-1/seq-2/
The "Steeler"...Pittsburg to Cleveland
Miningman The "Steeler"...Pittsburg to Cleveland
Nope - the train I'm looking for was started approximately during the time of wanwheel's ad. The Steeler existed in the post WW2 years.
OK,..The Steel City Express, Chicago- Pittsburgh est 1915-disct'd '34
Steel City Express (1915)
Another postwar train was the Steel King.
Note that this was completely peripheral to the Iron City Express (rename of the Pittsburgh and New York Specials, both prior to 1913) and when special Cincinnati and Cleveland trains to Pittsburgh were put on in 1932 they got the Iron City, not the Steel City, name.
Why it was Iron City beer and not Steel City beer has never been clear to me, either, despite having a sister who has lived in Pittsburgh over 35 years.
The P.R.R. has new daily Chicago to Pittsburgh service via Ft. Wayne route, “Steel City Express,” lv. Chicago 11:45 P.M., ar. Pittsburgh 10:30 A.M. Affords connection with P.R.R. Day Express No. 24, lv. Pittsburgh 11:01 A.M., 12:01 noon, ar. Harrisburg 6:19 P.M., Phila. 8:48 P.M. and N.Y. 11:18 P.M. Thru tickets honored. Extra fare from Chicago $5 to Phila., $6 to N.Y.
Miningman OK,..The Steel City Express, Chicago- Pittsburgh est 1915-disct'd '34
You got it first! RME confirmed the answer and Wanswheel's entry gives the 411 on the Steel City Express.
As a final sideline concerning PRR and the "steel" catchphrase, in November 1915 PRR (along with L&N, CofG and ACL), established The Southland; early PRR advertisements emphasized the all-steel aspect of the new train and did so until the WW1 years.
You get the next question, Miningman!
ZephyrOverland The Southland
The Southland
Riding the Southland (Classic Trains forum, July 9, 2006)
It was in the Winter of either 1942 or 1943 and my Uncle drove my Aunt and I the 30 odd miles from Bradenton, Fla. to the Union Station in Tampa. I was 10 or maybe 11 years old and very excited because this was to be my first ever trip on a long distance train and in a Pullman sleeper no less! As I recall the Tampa section of the Southland consisted of four Pullmans and four or five coaches plus a number of head end cars. All were heavy weights. Our porter took our luggage on board and showed my Aunt and I to our open section seats. I can't remember exactly but think our car had 14 sections with one compartment and possible two bedrooms. We pulled out of Tampa at dusk behind an Atlantic Coast Line 4-8-2 which was one of several the ACL had purchased from the Lackawanna expressly for service on the Southland. Our first stop was at Trilby and I accompanied our porter to one of the car's vestibules where he opened the top half of the door and invited me to look out with him to watch the coaches and Pullmans from the St. Petersburg section being added to our train. Not long after leaving Trilby our porter made up our berths and my Aunt took the lower while I climbed the ladder and bedded down in the upper. I was a little disappointed that my Aunt had the window while I had to be content with listening to the clickety clack of the rail joints and the occasional deep chime whistle of that big mountain engine as she rolled through the sparsely populated (at that time) upper Gulf coast. The Southland ran over the ACL's Perry cutoff which by passed Jacksonville and ran through such metropolises as Gulf Hammock, Shamrock, Chiefland, and Perry (it's namesake). For years I was of the belief that the Southland was limited to 30 mph over this route because of its big engine and the lightly built roadbed. The Perry cutoff was laid with 90 lb. rail much of which was only cinder ballasted. Needless to say it was "dark" territory with timetable and train order operations. Recently Russell Tedder informed me that the ACL's Employee Timetables showed a 59 mph speed limit over the "Cutoff". I'll bow to Russell's superior knowledge since he grew up around Perry and as young man was the Live Oak, Perry & Gulf's agent/operator at Perry. In any event I was so excited that I lay in my gently swaying upper berth for hours listening to the muted train sounds before finally falling asleep. Sometime around sunup The ACL handed us off to the Central of Georgia and when I awoke, got dressed quickly and headed for breakfast with my Aunt. We were really highballing compared to our more leisurely pace over the ACL. Breakfast in that CoG diner which had been added to our train as we sped up the main to Atlanta at breakneck speed behind a CofG 4-8-2 was truly memorable. It was both the first time I had ever eaten in a dining car and also the fastest I had ever travelled! I learned we had been 20 minutes late leaving Albany, GA. but the CofG made it up and put us into Atlanta on the dot. At Atlanta we dropped off at least the Tampa-Atlanta sleeper and maybe a St. Pete-Atlanta Pullman as well. I believe (but am not sure) we picked up a sleeper from the CoG's overnight train from Savannah. The CofG diner was dropped and a Louisville & Nashville diner added; undoubtedly there was some shuffling of head end cars and coaches as well. We left Atlanta on the L&N late in the morning for the day time run through the mountains of north Georgia, eastern Tennessee and Kentucky. This line was single tracked but semaphore block signalled all the way to Cincinnatti. This was truly "curve city" all the way around the mountains and through the valleys. While we were double headed by a pair of L&N 4-6-2's I doubt if we ever hit 60 mph due to the length of the Southland combined with those mountain grades and the speed restrictions on the curves. Not too long after lunch in the diner we were in Tennessee and as we went around the curves I was watching that double header and the semaphores dropping as we passed them until I dozed off ocassionally. I'd wake up from my slumbers as the train slowed for a staion stop and I remember three things quite distinctly about that afternoon. First, at some small town in the mountains where a branch of the Southern Railway interchanged with the L&N I saw a SR compound articulated 2-8-8-2. This was my first ever sight of such an engine! Second, I remember stopping at Oak Ridge, Tennessee and the surprising number of passengers who got off there, undobtedly employees of the atomic plant which could be seen across the valley from the L&N's station. Third, and again at another small mountain town where the Kentucky & Tennessee terminated and had an engine house right alongside the L&N main with several K&T 2-8-0's and 2-8-2' s on their service tracks in plain view. At Corbin, Kentucky we changed engines and after a sumptuous meal in the diner (my Aunt who was paying the bill indulged my every wish) we soon retired for the night. I slept like a log and never even opened my eyes at our Cincinnatti Union Station stop where the L&N handed us off to the Pennsylvania RR. The next morning I barely woke in time to get dressed and get off the train at Gary, Indiana where my Dad was waiting to pick us up on the snowy wind blown station platfrom. Oh yes, the Pennsy had run the train with a pair of K-4 Pacifics on the overnight dash from Cincinnatti to Chicago. Mark
As we all know much of history is not pre planned but follows along lines of happenstance, random events or several random events and then things go off in a direction for the good or bad. So along these lines, I am looking for a town that developed rapidly, a veritable mining boom town, the biggest ever in the history of the North. The "downtown" store fronts stretched for miles, their was an opera house built, fine hotels and it attracted wealthy investors and poor souls seeking a fortune, and many did, even a famous and very unusual poet who actually was quite successful with his mine, although short lived. All told 108 mines were in operation at its peak! They even had one of the very first, of what soon became the NHL, franchises for a short period of time. This railroads fortunes grew and were greatly enhanced for decades and established its importance to the north as more and more mines were discovered. A beautiful railroad station was soon build and still stands today although unused. It is widely regarded that Toronto became what it is because of this boom. Almost all of the wealth went down south to Toronto eventually and it became the world capital of mining, with financial power and many head offices for what eventually became multi national mining and exploration companies. This boom town saw the development of many advancements in mining and milling. It spawned an entire industry of product developments and started a prospecting rush far and wide from its epicentre. Advancements in the use of compressed air, water lines and pressure for drilling, drilling itself, and many other innovations. A world famous Mining School developed near by. The deposits in the Noranda gold belt in Quebec, the gold deposits of Kirkland Lake and Timmins, both in Ontario, and then the remainder of the north and further into the west, all had a direct link to this. The railroad in question was indirectly responsible for this mining boom. One of its contracted employees, a blacksmith living in his shop along near the mainline as it was being laid down in this area, was the first to find the riches that were nearby. As legend would have it a fox would come by at dawn as our blacksmith was having his breakfast. One day he threw his hammer at the fox. Missed by a mile and hit outcrop several yards away. It chipped off a considerable large piece of rock and exposed a thick, solid silver vein. Native silver in this form will tarnish to black on its surface and secondary minerals "bloom" will form. It is easily overlooked and not noticed, especially to the untrained eye. He took a sample of it to a hotel owner in the next town over to be reached by the railroad and asked him what it was..he thought it was "some kind of damn metal". It went for assay and came back 4,000 oz /ton Silver. A geologist was dispatched by the province. Reports soon came back that the area was rich with silver and of high grade and abundant. The geologist wrote the new name of this boom town on a plank by the lake. A station was built, the rush was on and a town sprung up overnight. At about the same time 2 men contracted to supply railroad ties from the nearby forests found the same thing in a different location entirely a few miles away. More confirmation and the money poured into town. It was the richest silver deposit area ever discovered anywhere. It had the only streetcar system (in Ontario), north of Toronto, that became an interurban connecting 3 nearby towns and competed with the railroad.This town went through boom and bust cycles, down hill a bit shortly after the war, then really collapsed in the seventies. Today it struggles to survive as, very unfortunately, does this historic and all important railroad. The poet has a monument and the local library stores his records. There are lines from a poem cast in bronze in a sitting area outside the doors. There is a statue of the blacksmith and the fox. A few historic buildings surviveThis is a very overlooked place, somewhat ashamedly lost to history and its importance to mining industry, the exploration industry, the railroad and even its role in transforming the "town" of Toronto from "Hogtown" to what it is today. What was the town named by the geologist? Extra's-what is the railroad in question? Who was the Blacksmith.? What year was the discovery? Who was the poet and why was his poetry so unusual? What was the name of the interurban?
Since it's silver mining, it couldn't be named for another metal. Or could it?
1903, Fred LaRose (I don't know the fox's name) - you didn't ask about McKinley or Darragh for some reason. And William Henry you bad leetle boy, not moche you care How busy you 're kipin' your poor gran'pere Drummond... and Ontario Northland and its Northlander.
Town is still kickin' and if it can overcome its current problems, it may be a guide to many small towns with similar issues...
The "other" metal was in abundance as well and associated with the silver...it was considered mostly as waste until science and the military fiqured it out. Today it has many uses. The town is named after that metal by the geologist. The town was the worlds leading producer of it for quite some time.
McKinley and Darragh were the two guys supplying railroad ties from the local forests for the advancing railroad...I mentioned no specific names anywhere in the question quite on purpose.
Fred LaRose is correct...he was the blacksmith...the "legend" of the story with the fox got weaker as the years went by until the mid 2000's when docements turned up about Fred LaRose going to the owner of the Mattabanik Hotel in the farming community up the line with the samples and sending them for assay before McKinley and Darragh made their discovery. The fox story turned out to be real.
Drummond is correct, but why was his style so unusual? Still need to know the name of the town from someone, which was the main question, and the name of the streetcar line that became an interurban plus the railroad that was advancing northward. Amazingly it missed finding the large deposits because it tried its best to avoid blasting through rock. At one point in the very heart of the town in question, where a headframe still stands, the railroad came through missing a seriously huge high grade deposit by 30 feet.
Amazingly Fred Larose's blacksmith shop still exists as it was, now a historic building. About 100 ' from the mainline and another big mine adjacent to it. That company was, and still is, Agnico-Eagle a worldwide multi national. The property is now used for core storage and an exploration office. There is great interest now in diamond exploration in the area.
Click the link in my last post for the name. I trust the interurban was Nipissing (aka the Temiskaming Streetcar Line), and the railroad was actually (in 1903 at least) the famous Temiskaming & Northern Ontario.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter