Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[ZephyrOverland]

Overmod

 

 

ZephyrOverland

A long, long time ago, passengers who were planning to take SP's Sunset Limited in San Francisco and expecting to detrain in New Orleans ended up traveling to Chicago instead. When did this happen and for how long?

 

 

Did it have something to do with this?

Not exactly a 'natural' disaster, however...

 

(That's the only thing I know of that would really, absolutely, positively block off any traffic from SF/LA on the Sunset Route while preventing any trains from running SE.  That still inadequately explains why 'Chicago' instead of going across the Overland Route or whatever from Oakland to some intermediate destination with shorter connection distance or trackage rights to New Orleans.)

 

The issue that caused the Sunset Limited reroute did not have anything to do with SP's physical plant - it was more medical in nature.

As to your comment about the routing, before the Chicago reroute was announced there were newspaper reports circulating that the Sunset would become an Overland Route train for the season, running via Ogden and Omaha.  This never happened.

I think this reroute was a big deal at the time because (I presume) a good number of Sunset passengers were transcontinental types and according to some news reports at the time, traveling coast to coast via New Orleans was cheaper than via Chicago.  SP still charged rates as if the train was still running from New Orleans during this time.  If the Sunset became an Overland Route train, I think it would have to charge higher rates that were similiar to other Overland Route trains.  Maybe this was the reason the train was rerouted the way it was.

[Overmod]

ZephyrOverland

The issue that caused the Sunset Limited reroute did not have anything to do with SP's physical plant - it was more medical in nature.

I started thinking about the influenza epidemic, but then remembered New Orleans... this was something worse.   October 1st, in fact, SP closed the Gulf route to all freight traffic, using the T&P for all connections east of El Paso.  (Interestingly enough, it appears the yellow-fever quarantine was lifted by October 18th, but the Chicago service was by that time enough of a competitive success that SP continued it...)

The 'revised' Sunset Limited ran over the Sunset Route to El Paso, thence to T&P, the StL,IM&S (through St. Louis!), then Alton into Chicago.   Actual time 72 1/2 hours, a rather respectable average (for late 1897) of 34mph including all stops.

To compare with the 'native' Sunset Route prices, this train charged $12.50 extra fare over a $31 section price.  I have no idea what the compartments or double drawing rooms would go for, but someone here will know.

It lasted only two years, apparently because T&P needed 'extensive track renewals' (according to Railway Age) but spawned something of a competitive 'war' among other railroads serving San Francisco out of Chicago 'in 72 hours'.

 

[ZephyrOverland]

Overmod

       ZephyrOverland

The issue that caused the Sunset Limited reroute did not have anything to do with SP's physical plant - it was more medical in nature.

  

I started thinking about the influenza epidemic, but then remembered New Orleans... this was something worse.   October 1st, in fact, SP closed the Gulf route to all freight traffic, using the T&P for all connections east of El Paso.  (Interestingly enough, it appears the yellow-fever quarantine was lifted by October 18th, but the Chicago service was by that time enough of a competitive success that SP continued it...)

The 'revised' Sunset Limited ran over the Sunset Route to El Paso, thence to T&P, the StL,IM&S (through St. Louis!), then Alton into Chicago.   Actual time 72 1/2 hours, a rather respectable average (for late 1897) of 34mph including all stops.

To compare with the 'native' Sunset Route prices, this train charged $12.50 extra fare over a $31 section price.  I have no idea what the compartments or double drawing rooms would go for, but someone here will know.

It lasted only two years, apparently because T&P needed 'extensive track renewals' (according to Railway Age) but spawned something of a competitive 'war' among other railroads serving San Francisco out of Chicago 'in 72 hours'.

  

Overmod - You basically got the answer.

 

Coastal populations in the South, including New Orleans, had to deal with yellow fever outbreaks on a yearly basis, peaking in late summer.  The 1897 epidemic was more severe than was the case in previous years.   In early September 1897, news reports were surfacing stating that SP was getting the Sunset Limited equipment ready for the upcoming season, beginning service at the end of October and running semi-weekly on its regular San Francisco-New Orleans route.  However, by late September additional news reports were appearing suggesting that the Sunset Limited would be operating via Ogden and Omaha to Chicago on UP’s Overland Route instead of New Orleans due to the yellow fever outbreak. Apparently, they were just rumors, because by the end of the month SP was advertising the reroute of the Sunset via El Paso and St. Louis to Chicago. The fact that New Orleans, as well as most of Louisiana was put under quarantine, forced SP's hand in rerouting the Sunset to Chicago, suspending all freight and passenger service on its eastern lines effective October 1. 

 

The rerouted Sunset operated via SP from San Francisco to El Paso, T&P El Paso-Texarkana, St. Louis, Iron Mountain & Southern Texarkana to St. Louis and Chicago & Alton to Chicago.  The status of the Sunset Limited was that the new operators of the train were promoting the Sunset within their advertising. It was understood that the reroute was temporary until the epidemic ran its course, which began with the first frost on Thanksgiving 1897, but SP decided to keep the Chicago routing through the end of the season.  What SP did instead was establish a New Orleans-El Paso train, called Sunset Limited Annex, connecting to the Chicago train and handled a through New Orleans-San Francisco sleeper.  This semi-weekly service began on January 4, 1898, and operated through the rest of the winter season.  Additional through equipment on the Sunset Limited Annex (2nd class tourist sleepers) operated between Washington-San Francisco (twice weekly), Chicago-San Francisco (weekly) and Cincinnati-San Francisco (weekly), the latter two via Illinois Central. 

 

For the 1898-99 winter season, SP hedged its bets by starting the Sunset's season in early December instead of October, after any potential yellow fever outbreak had run its course.  A Chicago service was again operated on a twice-weekly basis, but only from Chicago to Los Angeles, beginning November 5, 1898 and eventually receiving the name Pacific Coast Limited.  SP tried to give instant credibility to the Chicago service by stating that the train was "similar in equipment and character to the Sunset Limited".  The Chicago service was essentially competing with Santa Fe’s California Limited, which was operating on a winter-season, tri-weekly basis.  Unfortunately, the longer route of the Pacific Coast Limited made it uncompetitive, running on a schedule that was hours longer than Santa Fe’s train.  The following winter season saw only a weekly tourist sleeper operate on this route.

 

Ironically, one can still ride most of this “temporary” detour on the through Chicago-Los Angeles cars on Amtrak’s Texas Eagle and Sunset Limited.  The only difference is that the through cars run via San Antonio, totally bypassing the former ex-T&P Dallas-El Paso portion.  

Overmod, the next question is yours....

[Overmod]

What's the date and railroad of the first radio-transmitted telephonic train order?  (Extra points for details of the equipment setup.)

[rcdrye]

ZephyrOverland

Ironically, one can still ride most of this “temporary” detour on the through Chicago-Los Angeles cars on Amtrak’s Texas Eagle and Sunset Limited. The only difference is that the through cars run via San Antonio, totally bypassing the former T&P portion.

Actually, the section between Dallas and Texarkana (formerly Ft. Worth and Texarkana, now bypassed over TRE) is former T&P.

[Miningman]

---

Electrical World, May 30, 1914, page 1269:

Radiotelephony  for  Railroads__________

    On account of the success that attended the wireless-telegraph installations on the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad during the nine-day paralysis of its wires in last February's blizzard the officials of that system have been investigating the possibilities of the radiotelegraph and radiotelephone on their moving trains. 
    Wireless-telephone apparatus was recently installed at Scranton, Pa., and on one of the through fast trains. The Scranton installation, though hurriedly made, was able on its second trial to maintain clear voice transmission to this train as far as to Stroudsburg, Pa., a distance of 53 miles, the train running at 60 miles per hour. The antenna at Scranton is 300 ft. long and 150 ft. high; that on the train extends over the four forward cars only, the station being in the second car from the locomotive. On account of train noises it is necessary to use an amplifier and a detector. A two-step amplifier giving from fifty to sixty times amplification, is used on the train. The generator is directly connected to a steam turbine in the baggage coach, which is supplied with steam from the steam-heating pipes beneath the car. At the Scranton station 125-volt direct current is used. 
    The present apparatus is of only 1-kw rating, but no difficulty has been had in telephoning from Scranton to Binghamton, a distance of 67 miles, over rough wooded and mountainous country. The officials of the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad purpose to make permanent installations on two of their fast-train equipments for facilitating dispatcher's service and especially for the convenience of the public. 
    In the radiotelephone equipment described a De Forest transmitter, an Audion amplifier and an Audion detector were used. These devices were built by the Radio Telephone & Telegraph Company, 309 Broadway, New York, which also made the installation at Scranton and on the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western train described above. 

---

• United States Early Radio History > Pre-War Vacuum-Tube Transmitter Development > Lee DeForest

[Miningman]

Thinking this was pretty early on .. Good ol' Lackawanna. 

[Overmod]

You have everything right but the exact date -- see if you can find that.

Note how very different the Lackawanna exercise was from the Union Pacific experiments that wanswheel was describing in the other thread ... and why.  It appears to me that UP was trying to do phone transmission directly with the carrier -- no heterodyning!

[Miningman]

28, 1922

Radio Telephone Used
on Lackawanna Trains
____
Successful Demonstration is Given in Operation
Especially Fitted Car Running Between Scranton
and Hoboken
___
(Special to The Binghamton Press)
Scranton, March 28. - Radio telephone messages were received and dispatched from rapidly moving Lackawanna trains Sunday afternoon for the first time in history. The test was made from a specially fitted car attached to Train 3, from Hoboken Scranton, and Train 6, from Scranton to Hoboken. It was a complete and most satisfactory demonstration of the practicability of the system on moving trains and sustained the opinion of Lackawanna wireless experts that the equipment could be installed on trains for the convenience of passengers.

Hope this is what you're looking for as an answer.

[Overmod]

Miningman

Hope this is what you're looking for as an answer.

Almost a decade late.

(I am disgusted to find that after a number of repeated power failures and undervoltages, the device that held the reference with the actual date has gone dead with disk corruption and I can't get the specific date with the 'par-tic-u-lars'.  I recall it being December 5th, either 1914 or 1915.  Interestingly, the equivalent for a train order via wireless telegraphy was only shortly earlier, in 1913.)

Interestingly, it was recognized almost from the beginning that a key difference between telephony and telegraphy was important -- the idea that most people in train service, and perhaps the best candidates for train service, did not understand Morse -- and also that the use of wireless for block signaling and automatic train control required far more integrity and noise reduction than either code or voice transmission of train order information.

The radiotelephone messages in 1922 were important because they were of 'telephonic sound quality', and very interestingly to me it was reported that reception in 'long tunnels' was said to be good (which I would not have predicted before looking at the technical detais of the rigs involved!)  I understood the 'purpose' of the 1922 testing as being to provide a voice-grade telephone service to passengers on a moving train (as opposed to a phone like the one on the Century, that was disconnected when the train left the terminal).

Note how very different this was from the service initiated on the Metroliners which might make an interesting quiz question in a couple of years, but is now directly relevant by comparison.  (Note the very high level of technical critical thinking about practical details, typical of the people from Bell Labs in that era.)

[Miningman]

Yes, the date of the Electrical World article was May 30 1914. They refer to a nine day severe blizzard the previous winter and that the Lackawanna was successful with a wireless telegraph at that time. Then it goes on to say they were going to use the equipment shown in the article to attempt wireless telephony. And that it was recently installed and tested out. So that would put the date somewhere before the May 30th, 1914 article. 

The 1922 date seemed too late but it's all I could find. This was, as you noted, a successful test on a moving train. 

[Overmod]

Keep in mind that the specific use of 'phone or 'graph for train orders is a very different thing from testing whether the technology works.  You will notice in some of the early phone testing with the Audion amplifier that discrimination of various types of noise is a significant problem with intelligibility, and this was understood as a specific problem with safety-critical operations practice.  (It was fine for some of the reported things, like damage to equipment or holding connecting trains, but not for train orders any more than as signal repeaters or ATC...)

The specific reference I found was that they got enough integrity out of at least one division's worth of phone coverage -- I suspect out of Scranton, with the antenna up on the hotel -- to be able to issue an actual telephonic train order. I don't find any evidence (admittedly my experience is skewed by the inherent bias of available sources) that the experiment actually proceeded to replacing telephone train control with wireless in any pre-WWII period, even as part of the 'mandated' rollout of ATC on the Lackawanna after about 1922.

We all know 'the rest of the story', which is that perhaps with the War and government control, followed by the rise of AM broadcasting which made any spark-wireless system that discriminated stations by the timbre or other chacteristic of their EM source first undesirable and then illegal, it would have to wait for the introduction of cheap radios or reliable inductive trainphones (note the date of invention of the 'grasshopper telegraph', something that is borne out rather dramatically in some of Sprague's early drawings and designs!) for actual operations to be conducted on the air rather than by stopping at call boxes to reach the dispatcher or the other men on a train...

 

BTW, note also the reference to the flurry of interest in automatic train control in this era, long before the expedient 'mandate' and at-least-presumptively-extortionate precondition for handing back private control incorporated into the Esch Act...

[Miningman]

Great information. Incredible how fast it all advanced from 1900 to now. Do we even dare to guess at the next hundred years? Perhaps Tofflers 'Third Wave of Power is Knowledge" will come to an end with computers designing computers. If I could have a fully functional Niagara in my backyard from a 3D printer in an afternoon then so be it. 

Is the question answered? 

[Overmod]

Might as well be.  Hit it!

[Miningman]

In the period of time between 1900 and WW1 ( exact date part of the question), Barney & Smith Co., a major competitor of Pullman, completed a very, very speciai order of six complete train sets for a new  train service. Six magnificient tail end cars were constructed for each of the six train sets. Brass railed open platforms, electric lights!, color striped canopies and something new- an electrically illuminated circular tail board sign spelling out the name of the train. These cars featured private state rooms, deep wool carpets and stained glass in the upper windows and in the upper celestory ceilings. Green plush covered wicker chairs were spaced around the lounge. A beautiful curved sideboard and writing desk complete with leaded glass was for use in the library along with the latest day newspapers. It was the best money could buy. Quite surprising coming from such a humble railroad, but ( there's always a but), this was a joint venture with a much larger and very significant railway...and it had a very unusual routing, ...and it was a long distance, (really long distance) train. In fact it operated 1,480 miles just on the bigger railways route. In addition it operated on a fast schedule and only the latest in Pacific type locomotives would do up front. 

Unbelievably it was 10 miles shorter than one competitor and 40 miles shorter than another despite its very unusual routIng.

One of the famous railroad titans of the day was infuriated when his train lost the United States Mail contract to this new train. 

Inauguration day was a big deal as the trains left both terminals at each end at the same time and there were big celebrations all along the route. 

So..name the train, the date of the inauguration, and the unusual routing. Bonus points for the names of each of the six tail cars. 

[rcdrye]

Soo-Spokane Train Deluxe.  Cars were built in 1907 for the route via MStP&SSM (Soo Line), CPR and Spokane International between the Twin Cities and Spokane.  The train was inaugurated July 4, 1907, extended to Portland via the SP&S in 1909.  James J. Hill only lost the storage mail due to the closed-pouch routing, but it was still a major revenue hit to his Great Northern. Soo-Spokane route (via Crowsnest line, not the later Soo-Dominion/Mountaineer route via Banff) was 10 miles shorter than GN, 40 shorter than NP. (The St. Paul's CM&PS wasn't finished yet).  Completion of Cascade Tunnel shortened GN's route by more than 10 miles.

The six observation cars were Fernie, Yahk, Nelson, Cranbrook, Curzon and Spokane.  Four of the six were Soo Line owned, two owned by CPR (Spokane and Cranbrook).  The observation cars had 4 compartments and one drawing room, the other sleeper in the train had 12 open sections and a drawing room.

Thanks to www.crowsnest.bc.ca/soospokane/sooconcept.html for the detailed info, and to George Dubin's Some Classic Trains for knowing what to look for.

Curzon and Omemee (one of the 12-1's) are preserved at the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel in Cranbrook BC.

[Miningman]

Way to go Redrye. That must have something to be able to take this train. The world was full of hope and wonder and good feelings about the future. $oo Line and DW&P had some interesting and important trains and routings despite their smaller size. 

[daveklepper]

Please give the full consist of each train.  For example. combine-mail storate, coach, coach, diner, 12&1, 4 cpt-1 DwRm-obs?

Date on the 4-6-2's used?

Running timje?   Engine and crew change points?

[Miningman]

[Miningman]

Seems some images won't paste. Well I'll keep trying. 

This train had very unusually long mail/baggage cars built for the service. 

[Miningman]

Track #2 - Early Trains Deluxe and Interpretive Cars Canadian Museum of Rail Travel - Cranbrook, B.C. Tour #2a - The Soo-Spokane Train Deluxe - 1907 (the "Cranbrook Train")
Interior of the Palace Sleeping car Omemee with one of two stained glass domes.  Photo: by Brian Clarkson for the Museum	Interior of the Palace Sleeping car Omemee with one of two stained glass domes.  Photo: by Brian Clarkson for the Museum	Interior of the Palace Sleeping car Omemee with one of two stained glass domes.  Photo: by Brian Clarkson for the Museum
3 of 6 car set on tour A most beautiful train built in the "Edwardian Era" with extremely rare cars. Exquisite workmanship in the Art Nouveau style with stained glass and substantial original upholstery and carpets. This train operated on a strategic international line linking Minneapolis, Minnesota with Spokane, Washington, but through Canada using the Crowsnest Pass line and Cranbrook as a major service stop. Your tour includes: Compartment-observation-buffet-library car Curzon    -  Elevation and Floor Plan Palace-Sleeper Omemee   - Elevation and Floor Plan First Class Day Car #621    - Elevation and Floor Plan to be provided. Baggage car #4144 - Not yet on tour, requires substantial rebuilding.   - Elevation and Floor Plan to be provided. Track 1: The Millionaires' Special Tour 1: The Trans-Canada Limited - 1929 Track 2: Early Trains Deluxe and Interpretive Cars Tour 2A: The Soo-Spokane Train Deluxe - 1907 Tour 2B: The Pacific Express - 1886   - Not on tour yet Tour 2C: Interpretive Cars   - Not on tour yet Track 3: Cars-of-State and Streamlined Trains Tour 3A: Cars-of-State and Business Cars Tour 3B: The Chinook - 1936   - Not on tour yet Deluxe Railway Hotel Architecture Tour 4: Royal Alexandra Hall

[Miningman]

Consist   Each train of the Soo-Spokane consisted of a fast Pacific (4-6-2), followed by an exceptionally long mail-express-baggage car. Then came the tourist sleeper, a first class coach, a dining car, a 12-1 first class sleeper and the observation car.   The cars built specially for the new Soo-Spokane Trains Deluxe in 1907 & others Compartment-Observation-library-buffet Cars (Soo Line Owned) 4 observation cars built for a total of $78,674 = $19,668 each from Can RR &  Marine World  - Nov/07) #750 - Curzon (disposed 7-31-33) #751 - Yahk (disposed 5-19-33) #752 - Fernie (disposed 12-29-33) #753 - Nelson (disposed 7-20-33) Compartment-Observation-library-buffet Cars (Soo Line Owned) 2 cars built in 1909 for Twin Cites-Winnipeg Service. #754 - Twin Cities #754 - Winnipeg (ended days as work car # x1413) Compartment-Observation-library-buffet Cars (CPR Owned) - Cranbrook (no #) - Spokane (no #) First-class Sleepers (Soo-Line owned) ("V"-class, 12-1 cars) 8 sleeping cars built for a total of $166,483 = $ 20,810 each, from Can RR &  Marine World , Nov/07) #1221 - Viking #1222 - Ventura #1223 - Vergaas #1224 - Velva #1225 - Venlo #1226 - Valhalla #1227 - Vanoss Note:  # 1220 - the  Omemee  was a prototype built in 1906 for Soo-Pacific use First-class Sleepers (CPR owned) - Dunmore (no #) - Digby (no #) - Portal (?) Dining Cars (Soo Line owned) 2 cars built for a total of $36,909, = $18,454 each, from Can RR &  Marine World , Nov/07) #1100 #1101 #1102 #1103 #1104 #1105 #1106 #1107 #1108 #1109 Dining Cars (CPR owned) - Warwick - built 1902 - (1907) (Heritage Park, Alta) - Westminster - built 1902 - (1907) - Berwick - (built 1900) - Dunrobin - (built 1906) - Rothsay - (built 1904) - Roxborough - (built 1904) - Chambord - built 1903 - (1909?) - Louvre - built 1903 - (1909?) (Oklahoma City) - Sandringham - built 1898 - (1911?) Tourist Sleepers (Soo-Line owned) #2410 #2411 Tourist Sleepers (CPR owned) (not identified) First Class (Day) Coaches (Soo-owned) - 23 passenger coaches built at a total of $ 183,114 = $7,961 each, from Can RR 7  Marine World , Nov/07) # 2400 # 2401 # 2402 ? or 4903 ? First Class (Day) Coaches (CPR owned) (not identified) Note  - # 621, built in 1901, was of similar type of construction and interior decor)  Baggage-Mail- Express Cars (Soo Line owned) 14 mail-baggage-express cars built for a total of $94,710 = $6,765 each from Can RR &  Marine World , Nov/07) - 2420 - 2421 Baggage-Mail- Express Cars (CPR owned) # 3696 # 3697 # 3698 (1910)

   

[Miningman]

Well sorry...can't get this image to be brighter..maybe Wanswheel!

[Overmod]

Miningman

Well sorry...can't get this image to be brighter...

Mouse over it and the text will highlight for easy reading.

(That page is a candidate for "Web Pages that Suck", an admirable site if you've never seen it.  Sometimes design defeats itself.)

[Miningman]

Overmod- I'm using a now 5 year old iPad and the finger/pressure touch screen is a bit hit and miss. It's functional but requires TLC and patience. My real laptop, not a Mac and does have a mouse, is at work taking the summer off. 

Thanks for the tip though, I'm not the best at it and could use the tips and encouragement. 

[wanswheel]

Link to consist page

http://www.crowsnest.bc.ca/soospokane/consist.html

[Overmod]

Miningman

Overmod- I'm using a now 5 year old iPad and the finger/pressure touch screen is a bit hit and miss. It's functional but requires TLC and patience. My real laptop, not a Mac and does have a mouse, is at work taking the summer off.

1) Get a Bluetooth mouse and pair it.  For the forums, be sure it has a scroll wheel.  I usually prefer trackballs, but when you're 'mobile' they are more difficult to keep oriented.

2) Go into settings and turn assistive touch on.  I believe that will give you access (through the little movable 'widget' that appears on the screen) to some of the virtual interfaces that would make selecting text regions easier. 

If I remember correctly, press and hold on some part of the text, then choose 'select all' from the bar that pops up to get everything to light up.  You can also double-tap the beginning (or end) of the text and move the pathetic little handles around to light up more of it.  Yes, it's pathetic; yes, they ought to have implemented either a hard or soft 'option' key that could be used to give conformity with other Apple devices; yes, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds; yes, crApple has very little idea of how to make  or program actual user-friendly devices.

[Miningman]

Thanks to Wanswheel and Overmod.

[rcdrye]

daveklepper

Please give the full consist of each train. For example. combine-mail storate, coach, coach, diner, 12&1, 4 cpt-1 DwRm-obs?

In each set, and ahead of the end car, was the 12-1 first class sleeper, followed by the dining car, the first class coach., the tourist sleeper, and at the head, the exceptionally long mail-express-baggage car.

daveklepper

Date on the 4-6-2's used?

Soo Line H-1 (701-722) Alco/Schenectady 1904-1907

CPR G1a or G1d 1100-1119 CP 1906 or 1020-1026 MLW 1906

Don't have a listing for an SI 4-6-2.

daveklepper

Running timje? Engine and crew change points?

Running time was around 55 hours to Spokane.  Comparable GN Oriental Limited was 62 hrs 15 mins to Seattle.  Crew changes at Glenwood MN, Drake MN, Portal ND/Sask, Moose Jaw, Dunmore (Medicine Hat), Lethbridge, Cranbrook and Yahk. From Yahk the SI crew took it into Spokane.  There might have been more crew changes at minor division points.

The Soo-Pacific was never a Chicago train.  The 1909 Wisconsin Central lease hadn't begun when the train was inaugurated, and there weren't enough cars to do a through train.

[Miningman]

Pretty impressive. Did Beebe write about this train? 55 hours -Remarkable. 

What our countries need today is a good $50.00 a night roomette.