You are correct, Mr. rcdrye! It was little more than a trolley operation. The line reverted to steam after the powerhouse fire. Towards the last, it was used as one leg of a convoluted journey of a Trenton -Philadelphia milk train. Trenton-Kinkora-Lewis-Mt. Holly-Burlington-Delair-44th street, Philadelphia!
Your question, sir!
This line had the only U.S. AC electrification at less than 25 cycles. Like the Burlington and Mount Holly, it was a test bed for a major railroad that never did electrify any main lines.
The Erie in upstate New York, forget which two towns. Two cars, centered pantograph, cars like typical wood interurban cars.
Salamanica - Oneada?
Erie's was 25 hz 11KV
Your question included the statement that the railroad did not electrify any main lines. Did ir electrify ANY other lines? And I would assume that terminal electrifications and tunnel electrifications can be main line electrifications if they belong to a main line.
rcdryeThis line had the only U.S. AC electrification at less than 25 cycles.
I'm pretty sure you mean Visalia Electric (1908)
But Burch (1911) goes into considerable detail about motors for a 1907 PRR electrification also at 15Hz (4:1 converter reduction from 60Hz American line power) using Westinghouse 144 gearless motors rated 620hp continuous. I can't figure out (on my little laptop screen) just where this was implemented, but it seems like a lot of technical detail for something that didn't at least run experimentally. And it would take a tormented definition of 'major railroad that never did electrify any main lines' to describe a PRR-associated line...
PRR's 15 Hz attempt never got out of Altoona. New Haven's successful 25Hz installation instead became PRR's pattern. Visalia Electric was supposed to be SP's workshop for long distance electrification. SP did later electrify the East Bay suburban lines at 1200 VDC, and owned the giant (600/1200VDC) Pacific Electric, but never electrified any main lines. SP's very successful cab-forwards were good enough to keep electrification at bay. It's no coincidence that the first cab forward conversions were also in 1908.
SP also electrified two suburban lines out of Portland, OR, and was behind the NWP third-rail electrification. Some of this equipment ended up on Pacific Electric. How long did Visula Electric last? Did it remain AC all its life?
The odd AC electrification, with big classic interurban style combines, along with a single Baldwin-Westinghouse boxcab locomotive, lasted until 1944. Passenger service ended in the 1920s. Pantographs were used for current collection. Replacement power was GE 44-tonners and later various SP power. Most if not all of the VE was abandoned in the 1990s.
From a post on Trainorders that describes some details:
" ... VE's electrification. SP had a head start in that business. SP company documents show that SP was cashing in on the "interurban craze" of the 1900s, and they had a power producer in the family...Collis' nephew, Henry, head of Pacific Power and Light, who was already at work building both the Borel, Kern River and Big Creek Projects, all formidable and highly advanced hydroelectric projects of those times. The reasoning was that SP could get a foothold in the San Joaquin interurban business and test out the unusual 15 Hz AC traction at the same time, testing the feasibility for eletrification of not only the Fresno line, but also possibly Tehachapi, for SP. The instant reason for Huntington's interest in these projects was to power his burgeoning Pacific Electric, as well as to corner the cheap hydroelectric generation business to Southern California with the shortest transmission lines. However, all these projects used the GE 60 Hz system rather than Westinghouse's 50 Hz, so for low speed traction, they needed rotary convertors that would divide the 60 down by four to a more workable frequency. Thus, instead of the distributed 25 Hz normally seen in the East for industrial work, PP&L could provide VE with 15 Hz GE rotary convertors, which worked splendidly. Once Henry died, the "grand amalgamation" of power companies in Los Angeles County occurred, which created Southern California Edison Co, which still is the power provider for that portion of the San Joaquin, using Big Creek power, to this day. I am an heir of some of the original 1917 "grand amalgamation" preferred stock. Up until the end, SCE feeders fed all PE converter stations under and agreement SCE worked out with PE and SP during the sale of PP&L assets, much to the constant consternation of LA DWP in LA city territory. The big loser in the "grand amalgamation" of 1917? Southern Sierras Power Co., later "Calectric," which finally gave up and was absorbed fully into Edison in 1964."
It would appear that this line was notable for a different electrical 'first' on SP, in the 1920s. This was more successful and widespread in adoption. What was it?
The VE did have some very early gas-electric locomotives, used for switching packing sheds that weren't equipped with overhead wire.
The use of electricity I'm thinking of is different, and its primary early significance was on steam main lines.
Find me a reference to the gas-electrics; I find some indication they (it?) used an 8-cylinder motor powering 4 trucks, 44 tons; presumably this would resemble one of the contemporary GE powerplants?
I'll have to dig a bit for the gas-electrics. Was the VE an early user of telephone dispatching?
rcdryeWas the VE an early user of telephone dispatching?
Warmer. Truth to tell, I don't know if they were. What I'm thinking of was more important to SP.
Color searchlight signals replacing semaphores? Electric switch machines and/or interlockings?
Dave, you have it, but don't guess. What was it and why was it significant?
I have not been able to do any real additional research. The very first application of both searchlight signals and electric motors for switches in North America were located elsewhere. So my conclusion is this: The Vissula Electric was short enough, so withing the capacity of the technology and economics of the time, all congrolled switches and all controlled signals were controlled from one tower, making it the originator of a primitive form of CTC.
The above may or may not been true, but there was one signal innovation that was certain. Audio-frequency signal track circiuts imposed on industrial-frequency power circuits. Vissula Electric must have been the pioneer of this technology used soon after by the NYNH&H and then the PRR and Reading and GN, later the B&M.
The problem to solve is how to have continuous ground power return current acorss the divisions between singal blocks. The B&O probably solved this problem in their pioneering Camden Tunnel Electrification by having heavy indcutors in parallel with capacitors across insulated joints, tunned for a close-to infinite impedance at 25Hz or 60Hz with the track circuit tuned to that frequency and DC power encountering minimum resistance in the inductors. By the time of the Central's GCT electrification and the orginal PRR - LIRR Penn Sta. electrification, possibly also the electrication of the elevateds and the LIRR Brooklyn - Jamaica, tuned criciuits across the rails at block lijmits allowed rail return to be soncinuous without insulated joints, but again using commercial power signal frequencies superimposed on DC power. Use of AC power posed a new challange, and the signal current frequency had tp be moved to the audio range.
I hate to say it, but my question was actually much more trivial than the level of thinking you have done -- which deserves not one, but several additional threads to explore (and I'm not yet up to much of the required engineering).
What I had noted was that the Visalia Electric was the testbed for the searchlight signals on Southern Pacific, just as it was for the 15Hz electrification. Of course the searchlight technology became more well used!
Dave, you have richly earned the next question, I think.
I should point out that a careful historian doing research may point out that I was wrong about block circuitry on the original B&O electrification, since they may have done it on the cheap by using one rail as ground return and the other with insulated joints as block signal circuit carrier, allowing retaining simiple DC. This would not allow detection of a broken rail, however. And it was probably replaced by AC with either shunts or resonant bridging fo insulated joints long before the end of the electrification after WWWII. But I am sure Vissula was the test bed for audio frequency signal control current.
My quesiton is: Name the railroad and the particular line that runs from the terminal city, has one or more stops in that city, serves a significant number of individual suburbs, and then has a distant terminal, the destination of the line, within the city's boundaries, not by any means the originating terminal.
Hint: End points are also served by the city's public transit system, if one doesn't mind about a 1/3-mile walk from the distant termnal. Also usually a one-seat ride on public transit, although there are times on both public transit and the commuter railroad when one change is needed. The public transit route does not meander outside the city to different municipalities. Still, it takes about 1/2-hour longer. At a considerably lower fare, even counting multi-ride or monthly pass coummter discounts on the commuter railroad.
And all this was also true 50 years ago. But not 70 years ago. 70 years ago the public transit option would have been quite different, not provided a one-seat ride, and taken about an hour or more longer.
Another hint: The public transit route uses equipment that could operate on the commuter rail route except for compatibility with ATS/ATC, etc. Could probably make the trip at restricted speed and/or with a preceding pilot train. But the commuter route equipment would not get very far on the public transit route if leaving from downtown and get only about 1/3 or the way if leaving from the distant terminal.
For the past fifty years one has a choice to go to city from the terminal community, part of the city if distant, via either rail transit or suburban railroad. But 60 years go the choice was bus to the rail transit or the railroad. There were also express buses and may still be. I thnnk only weekday rush hours.
OK, here is the give-away hint. Part of the public transit rail route was once owned and operated by the commuter railroad.
I have to think you're talking about the "D" Riverside Green Line in Boston, which is former B&A(NYC), and met the B&A main line at the Riverside end. MBTA acquired the line in the late 1950s. The "D" and "C" Green lines come closest at Reservoir (D) and Cleveland Circle (C). The Riverside "D" line re-enters Boston for a short bit between the suburbs of Brookline and Newton.
But 1. my commuter railroad line still exists and reenters the city at its terminal, not in its middle, and 2. the light-rail cars on the Riverside Line cannot draw electrical power at the present time, maybe in the future, on the Boston and Albany - NYCentraaql - CSX - T Purple Line route.
The rapid transit cars on the public transit route can draw power on the tracks of the commuter railroad.
Hoever, I may need to apologize. Instead of 50 years ago, it may have been somewhat over 45 years ago that tracks on a route used by the same commuter railroad began being used by public transit.
OK Another hint. Both the public transit system and the commuter railroad use compatible 600V third-rail power.
LIRR Rockaway Beach line? The south end of the line is now an IND subway line of NYCTA, with the northern part out of service. LIRR's Far Rockaway branch also serves the Rockaway section of New York.
I was thinking the Dyre Avenue #5 line (ex-NYW&B) which I thought was close to a commuter rail service. Probably MN Harlem line (Williams Bridge?)
RC, please look at a map and refine your answer. Possibly a map 1970 - today and one 1950.
Currently, there is no Rockaway "Beach" LIRR line. Also, transit service to Rockaway Beach usually requires a transfer at Broad Channel or JFK stations to a shuttle, except for some through rush hour A trains, and possibly special summer service.
Also, should have commented earlier, Brookline, MA, although a P. O. address, is politically part of Boston. Like Brooklyn being part of NY. Cambridge, Newton, Watertown, Qunicy, etc. are susburbs. Mattapan and Dorchester and Chelsea and Revere and Sommerville are similar to Brooklne.
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