If it was, it could apply to TWO such units, constituting the fleet, and they are the Electroliners, which were both four units with five trucks, four powered, built for interurban inter-city service and ending up on the 69th St. - Norristown Line in rush hour commuter service. But I do not think you have this in mind. It must be one of the original Rock Island Rockets, but I do not know which one. The number of railroads that had pre-WWII fleets of streamliners that included articulated trains, some with the power included in the articulated unit and some not (RI), included, to my knowledge, only the UP, CB&Q, and RI. SP had some articulated cars, but not, as far as I know, a complete train. Other railroads had articulated streamliners: B&M, IC, GM&O, but not fleets of streamliners. Other fleets, NYC, PRR, CMStP&P, did not, as far as I know, include articulated trains.
Dave, of course you are right; it was either of the Electroliners (the two together constituting the 'fleet', and a little sophistry required to cover the fact that the four units WERE the 'whole train'. This wasn't intended as a particularly abstruse question - just to point out that so much of rcdrye's question about the RI triple=units could be extended to an even more uncommon four units.
To my knowledge, no railroad operated a 'standalone' four-unit articulated "car" in a longer consist made up of individual cars, as Rock Island and SP did. Were there any in European practice that fit that definition? (That is not a 'next question' - I'd just like to know...)
Dave, you are up here as with the other thread.
Burlington's Zephyrs 9900, 9901, 9902 and 9903 operated at various times with four units, including the power car (only 9903 was built with four). The second Twin Zephyrs - later Nebraska Zephyrs - were built with a seven unit articulated set, later reduced to five. One set survives. UP's earliest streamliners included the "Power Unit". M-10000 was displayed as a four car set, but never ran tht way in revenue service. M10001 was built with six, modifed to seven. Trains with separate power cars had articulated sections ranging from nine to fourteen (!) cars. SP had several dozen two unit cars, and about 10 three unit diners.
And, rc, none of the above ended in commuter service to my knowledge.
Two questions, and whoever answers one first gets to ask the next question.
Stillwell Avenue, Coney Island, is the terminal station for four routes and has been for some time. On a few occasions five different servioes terminated there at one time, but accessed the station via four routs. I suppose the Nortons Point trolley on the structure and three streetcar services on the streets below could be added if one wanted to do so. But for a long time, there was a service operated for the general public, at specific times, the ran through the station, with trains carrying three destintion signs, one of course being Coney Island. And the two routes used two and from Coney Island were not shown on signage, only "EXpress." What, when, and how?
The North Shore had a very analogous service. After the opening of the Skokie Valley routes, expresses used it and locals used the Shore Line. There were some Shore Line rush hour expresses that skipped some stops, but they were by no means as fast and limited in stops as the expresses using the Skokie Valley route. But there was one service that operated at specific times that was as fast and ran non-stop to and from Howard Street, to-and-from its destination. What, when, and how? Again, we are referring to a service open to the general public, without special tickets, and definitely not the special sailor trains.
May if you have only one of the answers, you might wait and see if someone has both?
I'm not a tractionexpert,so this is by way of eliciting a better response from someone who is.
I'd make book that the Coney Island question refers to the Banker's Specialsto Wall St., but all I know isthat they ran 'via the Q line' (and presumably to suit investment bankers' hours).
I don't know if the North Shore Line question is supposed torefer to the two-car "Chicago Expresses" that ran over the Shore Line. I can't help but think there would be something that handled the Catholic traffic for Mundelein at specific times, which would have little point in stopping anywhere else, but that's based only on reference to the Cardinal's Congress in the mid-Twenties (the one that also produced the NYC Cardinal's Train that was modeled with the red Hudson).
I'll have to dig to find the name of the service, but the North Shore operated a late night express service for theatergoers that made no stops south of Howard.
Catholic traffic for Mundeliein was handled on the Skokie. The North Shore train I am referring to made regular North Shore stops in both direction on the CRT-CTA tracks but no passenger stops between Howard and the terminal of the service on the Shore Line. I believe there was a siding for this train's use at the northern end of the service, or it would have run to and from Highwood without passengers. Any person with a regular ticket could use the train, although it was operated in connection with a specific repeated event. It shared a seasonal characteristic with the BMT train that used Coney Island as a thru, not a terminal station. This latter train used a pair of tracks that was never used for any other REVENUE service, except for emergencies, and periods of regular-use track intensive maintanance. Photos of these tracks make frequent appearnces on the TRAINS Transit Forum threads.
I rode both trains once. North Shore in 1952, BMT in 1948. Neither time was a railfan specific occasion. The North Shore train provided the very best needed transportation after the event, and the BMT a return to Manhattan after a fun-and-beach day with friends, via a different rout than usual, just to have the experience, despite the extra nickle it cost me, but only using the half of the total rout that was the more unusual. In addition to a season similarity, signage of the two trains was similar, with the North Shore train's northward journey simply signed with the destination and "Express" and the BMT's similarly signed with three destinations, one of which was Coney Island as a thru stop, and simply EXPRESS.
The BMT's Bankers' specials were Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, and 4th Avenue rush-hour express trains that ran through the Nassau Loop like the Culver Express and West End Local rush hour trains, instead of going up Broadway to Time Square or 57th Street or Queensboro Plaza. They were the only 4th Avenue Expresses, switching to the express tracks south of 59th St., 4th Avenue Station. I believe there three Brightons, from Brighton Beach, two Sea Beach, from Kings Highway, two West End, from Bay Parkway, and two Fourth Avenue, from 95th, Fort Hamilton.
Are we talking about the "Sunny Summer Sunday Specials" (or whatever permutation ofthose four words were used)? Franklin-Nassau and Coney Island Express via I think the Sea Beach line?
And in Chicago, world-famous Arlington Park?
I did not know about the Arlington Park specials, if such were run. The North Shore train was similar, ran only in summer, and (the hint to give it away) ran with a regularly scheduled cultural event, which I was able to enjoy once, and which still exist, and I hope is well served the commuter rail today. You did describe the BMT service accurately, usually called the "Sunny Summer Sunday Specials." If the Sunday was cloudy, the trains ran only Franklin - Coney Island. If sunny, they were extended through Coney Island to Chambers Street, Manhattan, using the south tracks on the Manhattan Bridge that were used by the Nassau Loop trains during rush hours, using the DeKalb bypass tracks, and the otherwise unused by revenue trains express tracks on the Sea Beach line between Coney Island and 59th Street. Between Coney Island and Chambers Street, the only stops, therefore, were 59th Street, 36th Street, and Pacific Street. Whether in just Franklin - Coney Island service or running through to Chambers Street, the front had a white disk on the right pantograph gate.
You can ask the next question, and also name the cultural event with the special Shore Line service, should be easy to determine, summer only. Only one train each way, however.
Dave is looking for the Ravinia Park specials, "An Orchestra with a railroad station". A modern-day version is still run occasionally by Metra.
daveklepperYou can ask the next question, and also name the cultural event with the special Shore Line service, should be easy to determine, summer only. Only one train each way, however.
I believe rcdrye has done that, and I will let him go first with a question.
Well, each of you got half the answer, and I await rd's question.
Do the Metra Ravinia Park specials run not-stop Ogelvie (Sp?)-Ravinia?
More on the BMT specials. Whenever Franklin thru trains to Coney Island were run, the Shuttle to Prospect Park was not run. Ths meant that one could usually the "Little Zephyr" parked on the local track between facing and trailing crossovers on the northbound local track south of Prospect Park Station. The Franklin - Coney Island service also ran during the day on Saturday. During July and August also on weekdays, starting after the morning rush hour, and continuing through the evening rush hour to sundown. During the evening rush hour, these trains ran local, along with the regular Queensboro Plaza - C. I. Brighton via Tunnel locals. And still showed the white disk.
I haven't been able to find a current link for Metra's Ravinia Park trains, so I'm not sure what station stops they make, or even if they're still running. The 2009 schedule made all stops to Central/Evanston, then ran express to Ravinia. It's too late in the season to get the schedule from Metra's website.
In the early 1950s this line, which had been leased as part of a larger system since 1909, emerged from bankruptcy. In 1954 its directors authorized the building of a diesel shop in its own shop town along with the purchase of a far number of road-switchers. This move was enough to push the overall system to retire steam within two years. A few years later the larger system's long time nickname became the corporate name on the merger of the lessor, the lessee, and an affiliated railroad.
The Lessor, the NY Chicago and StL or Nickel Plate, the Lessee, the Wheeling and Lake Erie?
daveklepper The Lessor, the NY Chicago and StL or Nickel Plate, the Lessee, the Wheeling and Lake Erie?
Bit further north.
Pere Marquette (Sp?), C&O, Chessie System, B&O?
The smaller road is Wisconsin Central, parent road is Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Sainte Marie, both merged with Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic as Soo Line.
CSSHEGEWISCH The smaller road is Wisconsin Central, parent road is Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Sainte Marie, both merged with Duluth, South Shore & Atlantic as Soo Line.
Wisconson Central emerged from bankruptcy in 1952. In 1953 WC's board authorized the construction of a new diesel shop at North Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, and also bought a fairly large (by Soo standards) group of GP9s, switchers and an SD9 in 1954. Under the lease agreements then in effect, MStP&SSM would have had to absorb any costs involved in using steam on the WC after early 1955. The merger took place in 1961, with the corporate shell of the DSS&A surviving as the Soo Line Railroad. All three roads were at least half owned by Canadian Pacific, which gained a 55% stake in Soo Line, later increased to 100%.
This one should be interesting: What do LIRR 403 (Mike & Ike) and South Shore steeplecabs 900-903 have in common?
I think all are ex-Illinois Central. Displaced by dieselization of Markham Yard and the downtown freight operations.
IC 10000-10003 (WH b/n 61046-61049) became CSS&SB 900, 903, 902 and 901 via a Hammond, Indiana dealer in 1941. They were built by Westinghouse (with Baldwin bodies and trucks) in1930. LIRR's Mike and Ike were likewise Westinghouse/Baldwin products (SN 60185), though diesels (with Beardmore engines, like NYNH&H's Comet!) Retired and scrapped by LIRR in the 1950s, their names were reused on a pair of LIRR locomotives donated to a museum in 2009.
RC's answer was more complete than mine, and he should provide the next question. Dave
Mike & Ike were never sold to IC. All of the locomotives had Westinghouse electricals. The other commonality was Iron & Steel Products, located in Hegewisch (Chicago) Illinois, that's what it said on the side of their building. Mike and Ike were sold to that dealer to be cut up, and it was that dealer by way of which the IC electrics were sold to South Shore. rcdrye gets the next question.
Iron & Steel Products was located just north of Pressed Steel Car Co across the CWI and NKP from the Hegewisch South Shore station. It went out of business in the early 1960's.
LIRR record had Mike and Ike going to a different dealer. They must have been resold by the original dealer.
The South Shore's earliest predecessor had a name suggestive of great speed, though the first piece was only a local streetcar line. Give the original name, and the name of the larger project that used the same term with much bigger goals.
Not to mention the Chicago and IndianaPOLIS Air Line Railway (a couple of decades earlier) which was the progenitor of a very different 'famous' railroad, the Monon.
I think there's very little connection between the Chicago and Indiana Air Line Railway and the Chicago - New York Electric Air Line Railway of 1906. All these 'air line' railways, of course, just meant straight track ... interestingly enough, as with the Seaboard Air Line (probably the most famous with the name) this referred to tangent only and not grade. (The Chicago - New York line set high standards for grades, no more than 0.5%, and this was a significant reason why so little route mileage was completed!)
The Chicago and New York Airline Railway became part of Gary Railways steetcar system and not the CSS&SB. I presume you are looking for something else?
Wizlish got it. The Chicago & Indiana Airline was the first line that later became part of the CLS&SB, though most of the original 3.4 mile C&IAL (entirely inside East Chicago, Indiana) was abandoned about the time of the Insull takeover.
The bigger scheme I was looking for was indeed the Chicago-New York Air Line Railway. After about creating about 15 miles of arrow straight double track right of way (with a single track) between South Laporte and Goodrum Junction Indiana it became the Goshen, South Bend and Chicago (not reaching any of them), eventually part of Gary Railways organization. Cars 100 and 101 carried "New York" on one end and "Chicago" on the other for several years. A physical connection in LaPorte to the Chicago South Bend and Northern Indiana was used maybe once for a through trip from Gary to South Bend. With no traffic to speak of and poor connections on each end, the line fizzled out in early 1918.
The Air Line scheme was just the most extreme of the electric railway promotions in that era. Though effectively dead by 1908, the Air Line continued to print promotional literature until about 1911.
An engineer more famous later for his association with highways and Henry Ford teamed up with one of the people behind the development ofelectric power at Niagara Falls to developa proposal that may have influenced the Chicago - New YorkElectric Air Line Railway. This was notable for requiring an average speed over 140 mph (and therefore a peak sustained speed of over 170 mph!) with service to be provided on six-minute headway(!!) between its principal cities.
The design of car thought suitable for those speeds before the turn of the 20th Century was well-known enough to be mentioned in Astor's "A Journey in Other Worlds" of 1894.
Who were the principals, and what cities were to be served?
Hey, I object, the New York and Chicago Air Line may have been what you are looking for, but it was not incorporated in the CSS&SB! It may or may not have had a track connection with it, probably not directly.
daveklepperHey, I object, the New York and Chicago Air Line may have been what you are looking for, but it was not incorporated in the CSS&SB! It may or may not have had a track connection with it, probably not directly.
In all fairness, he never said the two were related, only that the later Air Line was a vastly greater scheme. I did look for a couple of minutes (as you suspect, utterly in vain) to find continuity between the Chicago and Indiana Air Line and the New York-Chicago scheme before I realized it was only an accident of grammar, and illustration of similarity in the 'Air Line' name, that linked them.
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