I'll always consider you as a giood source for information. Thanks.
It's been literally over a half-century since I looked at Giant's Ladder. From what I recall, it included the initial-surveying-milepost-on-the-cutoff explanation (although I don't know if it actually gave a comparable milepost for Orestod, which would be the defined 'end').
I would NOT be surprised if the D&SL or D&RG engineers adopted 'dot zero' as a pun for the point-of-beginning for the "revised" section of Moffat line that was to be used as the cutoff. Mike might have been able to find sources to substantiate that speculative hypothesis.
THanks and hope you'll come up with a queswtion.
What does the beautiful book Giants Ladder (David Moffat bio.) say about the Dotsro and its name?
And Orestod does work (OK, shortened to Orsted, does work better than Dnob.
It would appear that your Wiki entry was cribbed nearly verbatim from a Colorado Public Radio story, circa 2017, touting a book on curious Colorado place-names written by a fellow named Flynn.
Flynn is no railroader, though, as it does not take more than a cursory look to find pictures of (for example) the bridge over the Colorado at Dotsero in 1900 and, from 1919, someone standing next to a station sign -- in 1870s-style lettering and well-weatherworn -- that says Dotsero.
Ironically enough he would have been right if he were discussing Orestod, which I think clearly gets its name from the opposite end of the Cutoff, distinct from the actual station name near that point (which is indeed, as noted, Bond). But Dotsero as a community does go back to the lead-carbonate rush. It is a terrible pity that Vince (miningman) got run off, because he could add enormously to our knowledge here.
The actual story involving 'surveying' (and the folk-etymology probable origin of 'dot zero') comes from the Hayden survey of Colorado resources, in 1877. Tremendously detailed topo maps resulted from this work... which I cannot inspect effectively on a phone. If indeed the Dotsero volcano got its name by being denoted as a reference point, that theory would work, but it would have to be proven by direct reference to the materials.
Meanwhile, it appears that the original Ute population was run out of the area only after a massacre in 1879, with some indication that the boomtown proper wasn't fully established until it was 'safer' to do so -- it seems to me that roughly 1882 would make sense. That the town was named in some sense after the volcano, and not vice versa, seems more likely than not to me.
I'll return that job back to you and accept your conclusion. Some of the refernces may provoke the server. And time spent on repairing photographs is more productive, even if (hopefully temporarily) they aren't available for the website. Many others do enjoy them.
Frankly, considering the evidence in what seem to be reliable primary sources about the origin of both the place name and the 'carbonate boomtown', I wouldn't give such a Wikipedia account the time of day until they produce their actual, dated sources so we can assess their validity. Something like this has suspiciously-'researched' looking data (even if their IT people can't spell 'dotsero'):
https://cms5.revize.com/revize/eagle/Document%20Center/Departments%20&%20Services/Community%20Development/Planning/Adopted%20Long%20Range%20Plans/Doterso%20Community%20Plan%20Revised%2005142013.pdf
Go back to the Wikipedia entry and look at the talk page, where any discussion about the matter would be recorded. How do they account for the name being used in 1902? How do they explain the 'local history' about the carbonate boom (that would have been familiar to local newspapermen in the early '30s in a way that is likely far less familiar now)?
.
From Wicki:
The start-of-cutoff was railfan gospel for a long time; in fact I learned it directly from Karl R. Zimmermann when I was in high school (as I recall there was an actual picture with a zero marker on it). There was always that niggling annoyance about it being spelled with an S and not a Z, but that was the age of Boxpok and other annoying pseudo phonetic spellings, and I just assumed they thought 'Orestod' sounded better then 'Oreztod' (which it does).
However, the primary sources all seem to agree on the older name, and evidence of it in pre-cutoff timetables cements it pretty well.
The railroad town is indeed Bond.
I do not have the reference with me on Dotzero, and cannot possibly win the naming argument with you without that reference. I did not make up the start of construction idea by myself, I assure you. I rode the line many times (around 32 or 33) 1960 - 1995. I recall the actual town name as Bond, and Dotzero is included within Bond if my memory is correct after 28 years.
I am probably not a good authority on Colorado railroading by a long shot.
Dotsero has nothing whatever to do with surveying (in particular it is not 'mile marker 0' on the ex-D&SL/Moffat Tunnel 'cutoff' around Tennessee Pass that has 'Orestod' at its other end.
You will find references to Dotsero before the turn of the century. Once again I miss wanswheel, who could have documented this in proper detail. Apparently the name comes from the Utes, meaning 'something new', potentially referring to the most recent volcano in the region which was active only about 4200 years ago. A boomtown constructed starting around 1882 adopted the name -- probably as a pun on the Indian meaning; it's apparently in Rio Grande timetables at least as early as 1902, which is obviously long before the Cutoff was even preliminarily surveyed.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers.org/?a=d&d=STP19340608.2.10&e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN%7ctxCO%7ctxTA--------0------
Of course the 'old line' is still very much in existence, albeit (I think) embargoed, but there is interest in restoring service over it as an 'end run' around captive service (see Soloviev and his prospective grain traffic - a subject of a number of threads on the Trains forums).
According to Blaine (who was writing less than a decade after the events) the reason for 'New York Railways' was that 'New York Railway' was a registered corporation from the bad old days of the Tweed ring and their boodling boondoggle the Arcade Railway scheme -- and that corporation was still 'on the books' in 1912.
Of course, in 1926, New York Railways was (were) bought very-indirectly by GM, looking to the future and conversion to bus, once the transit bus that could compete with the streetcar was developed. In 1934, NY&Harlem's two streetcar lines (4th & Madison Avenues and 86th Street Crosstown) were bought from the NY^Central and added to "The Green Lines System." (They did have transfer privileges earlier.) The conversion process started December 1935 and ended in somewhat complicared fashion (single franchise runs kerpt months on some lines) by the end of 1936.
Overmod, please tell us all you know about the changes produces by the Dotzero - Orested cut-off, and today's situation.
And RC can fill-in for you for the next question if you wish.
NY Railways included systems that were insolvent as well as systems that, on paper at least, were solvent due to lease payments (probably from other, insolvent, properties, some of which were also part of NY Railways...). TARS was (more or less) a single entity with fairly understandable assets and liabilities. The division of the various properties from the IRT allowed the accountants and lawyers to make at least a token attempt to straighten out the financial mess.
Blaine has the answer to my question in his 1918 book on the development of New York's rapid transit. He tells an intriguing and perhaps not wholly detailed version of the great IRT-NYR merger and what happened as the wheels fell off Ryan's finances between the Panic of 1907 and the reorganization in 1912.
You would have to prove to me that your answer to the New York Railways Systems answer is the correct one rather thsn mine. It was basically the IRT that took NYR from receivership, and they had all sorts of corpotaye relaytionships to use for testing weird forms of urban transportation had they wished to do so. But maybe both answers have some merit.
Only Dotaero - Orested had Dotzero for 0,0 start of distance for construction progress. I did say a 1st-Class N. American Railroad.
Don't forget Colver and Revloc (Cambria & Indiana).
But you didn't answer the question yet!
Yes, the other entity was TARS, but you'll notice it has a singular name 'system'. There is a reason, and a very good one at the time, why the other entity was 'New York Railways' and not 'New York Railway System'...
This is the sort of question I like but virtually no one else here does.
What I was trying to find was the transit proposal that followed the general idea of Samuda's atmospheric railway, but that used "steam" as the motive power rather than compressed air. The only reference I had from "long ago" didn't discuss just how the steam was supposed to be used -- my thinking is that it would have to be admitted to purge, then allowed to condense to vacuum with atmospheric pressure actually pushing the train, like a very long staged Newcomen engine on its side.
The other thing is that I have pictures of a system very like a double-deck Listowel and Ballybunion, with a single rail carried high inside the car for suspension and lateral wheels bearing on what appear to be L braces for sway and lateral... there are gallery-car-like stairs up to a second deck with what does not appear to be complete legroom or access, but the vertical carrying wheels at each end of the car may just be drawn in improper detail. Was this related to the Burrows plan that didn't quite come off?
I am reasonably certain that your question involves Dotsero and Orestod, and the Moffat Tunnel, but I'll leave that for someone else to flesh out interestingly. But what about Foster and Retsof?
Was not the other system the Third Avebue Railroad System?
New York Raiways included Eighth & Ninth Avenue Railway and other street-specific (some crosstown, possibly Grand Street and/or Canal Street) that were all separate companies before the Metropolitan merger and probably had different ultimate actual owners with separate accounting required.
Overmod: Is this the kind of question you like?
Name a specific railroad line constructed as one project that had two end points spelled with the same letters, one name the exact reverse of the other, with one having a specific meaning regarding the actual construction.
The two endpoints and the line's description and purpose,
The owning railroad.
The resulting change in freight and passenger traffic.
The owner today.
The other user today.
As a quick placeholder (and example of the wrong sort of question): when the Ryan Metropolitan Street Railway organization came apart after the Panic of 1907 and the complaints about the 'trust-like' merger with the Interborough system, one of the two resulting companies was named 'New York Street Railways'. There was a specific reason for the plural; what was it?
OK. Anyway I can helkp with your research?
It might be good enough, but it also has to be generally interesting and not induce progressive MEGO syndrome in whoever is still here.
Your best attempt should be good enough!
I have the question, but I can't find the references to ask it correctly...
And Overmod is up on this thread, also.
Yes, having a good brain and lots of facts does have its price.
Right. One or two cars for each team, because the law now forbade steam south of 42nd SWt5., except for 11th and 12th Avenues.
Your question.
daveklepperWhat was unusual about its continued operation south of the new Depot, even furnishing a spectator-sport in the process?
Here is my replacenent question:
Whwn the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad moved from a Union Station further south to the new Grand Central Depot, predicessor of the existing 113-year-old Grand Central Yrtminal, the New York New Haven & Hartfard delayed in moving in. What was unusual about its continued operation south of the new Depot, even furnishing a spectator-sport in the process?
The answer to the bypassed question is that upon coversion of 4th & Madison, NY & Harlem - NY Railways strretcars to bus, the remaining Third Avenue Railways Third & Ansterdam "T" linw moved from thee outside of the 4-tracks on the Bowery and Park Row to the inside tracks that were from the original line.
daveklepper Maybe I should ask questions that don't involve NYCity streetcars?
Maybe I should ask questions that don't involve NYCity streetcars?
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