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As far as I know, the Sacramento Northern was put together from a collection of local and interurban eledftric lines and never had main line steam. So your first answer is not right. The second, my quesiotn isn't right. I meant converted from a steam railroad branch line, but didn't say so, and so I have to give you credit for the seond answer, where the Philadlephia and Western probably was the first really high speed interurban, opened before the North Shore opened its Skokie Valley Line, and before the covernsion that sparked the question and which I will save for some other question. The P&W was invisioned as part of a much longer system, but it did start pretty early. The orignal main l ine was to Strafford, not Norristown, and the Norristown Line became the main line, and some time after WWII, the Strafford branch was abandoned . I believe the junction was a flat double-track junction at Villanova The first question is still open. Hint, one of the electrified lines still exists as a passneger operation that is part of a commuter railroad operaton and not light rail anymore, although riding th eline gives evidence of its original cross-country trolley - steam branch line characteristics. And its trolley operation was VERY early and one of several.
daveklepper I believe I am supposed to ask the next question. OK, here it is: We all know of new light rail systems using railroad rights of way, abandoned lines, existing lines, sometimes retension of freight service, but where did the very first use of trolley wire and single-streetcar like operation on a steam railroad start (or former steam railroad)? You don't have to be specific about exactly which towns or cities, but definitely state the company (ies) involved. That is the first part. The second part is which was the first light rail line with the characteristics of a modern light rail and speed to match?
I believe I am supposed to ask the next question. OK, here it is:
We all know of new light rail systems using railroad rights of way, abandoned lines, existing lines, sometimes retension of freight service, but where did the very first use of trolley wire and single-streetcar like operation on a steam railroad start (or former steam railroad)? You don't have to be specific about exactly which towns or cities, but definitely state the company (ies) involved. That is the first part. The second part is which was the first light rail line with the characteristics of a modern light rail and speed to match?
I am gonna stretch this out with a wild guess. Part one: Sacremento Northern. Part two: Philadelphia and Western (Norristown High Speed Line).
Henry, thanks for explaining Maybrook and Campbell Hall.
Dave, will you never tell us which railroad had no Pacific?
Campbell Hall is and always was Campbell Hall. And Maybrook is and was always Maybrook. There is a mile or so between them. But before the L&HR, CNE, et al built into the area, Maybrook was not the yard we came to know and love. The town or village was there, the yard wasn't. Plus note your map is an obvious NYC empire map and to show that Maybrook with its Erie, O&W, L&NE and L&HR (DL&W, PRR, CNJ, RDG) connections to the New Haven empire was not thier perogative. The NYC did access Maybrook via the Erie from Campbell Hall. That's a really neat map, too. I presume it is one similar to what many eastern roads did back from the turn of the 19/20th Centuries into the 1950s. Multi colored, all connections show, all connections they didn't want you to know about not shown, direct competitors and thier connections not shown. I have several from the DL&W and the Erie and have seen those of the O&W, PRR, and LV. Great collectors items!
A hundred years ago Maybrook, NY was known as Campbell Hall.
New York, Ontario & Western map: http://www.nyow.org/OW_map.jpg
I never got to Maybrook, but I did ride part of the ex-New Haven Maybrook line, between Danbury and Beacon on a FL-9 new push-pull equpment Metro North fantrip with all equipment painted in the NH color scheme. Metro-North uses and owns this line, uses it for equpment moves. I think CSX provides the freight service, and it has a connection with the Hudson Line at Beacon and the Harlem at Brewster.
You did better than I did, Dave. At the age of 12 in May of 1955 I was riding a DL&W-L&HR-L&NE fan trip to Maybrook, NY sponsored by the Railroadians of America. There was a flyer passed out promoting a September trip up the West Shore and over the U&D to Oneonta, NY "one last time". I knew I wanted to go, I knew I should go, but I also knew my parents just wouldn't understand.
Oh, and I have in my possession an 8MM movie (Blackhawk Films?) of the U&D from Kingston up the hill. A camera was attached to the pilot of the ancient steamer and away they went. Circa 1915! I have it, yes, but it really belongs to a friend.
So, I should have left my original answer as correct. Thanks for the information. My trip to Fleishmans was to visit relatives in Holcott Center, and there was neither bus nor rail service to Holcott Center. My relatives sent me a bus schedule to Fleishmans, and then a visit to GCT gave me (a 14-year-old) the timetable for trains to Fleishmans. It was a marvelous trip. The 10th Avenue open side convertable streetcars were still running to the West 42nd Street Ferry. The train from Weehawken to Kingston had a 4700-class Pacific. The there were the ten-wheelers on the Ulster and Delaware branch, and they were similar to those used on the Putnam Division. I think I saw both slide-valve and piston-valve ten-wheelers. Coming back from Kingston, we had a 5200-series J-1 Hudson. Riding the rear platfom, I saw a freight pass with an elephant-eared Mowhawk, mostly refrigorator cars.
daveklepper I rode the Ulster andd Delaware from Kingston to Fleishmans and back in 1946. At that time it was already owned by the New York Central and the ten-wheelers all had New York Central on their tenders. I was not aware that there was every any through service to Weehawken when the railroad was independent. I had to change trains in Kingston in both directions when I rode. I saw one freight, and, like the passenger trains, was also pulled by a 4-6-0. I made one mistake. I think the handover between the TH&B and the NYC was at Niagra Falls or Suspension Bridge, and not at Buffalo. The TH&B either had its own line or trackage rights into Buffalo, but the passenger trains between Buffalo and Niagra Falls were NYV, if I am correct. I'll try, when I have time, to get the name of the junction between the NYO&W and the West Shore. YOu can look it up in the meantime. Meanwhile, who can name a passenger railroad that did operate sleeping car service that never owned a Pacific 4-6-2?
I rode the Ulster andd Delaware from Kingston to Fleishmans and back in 1946. At that time it was already owned by the New York Central and the ten-wheelers all had New York Central on their tenders. I was not aware that there was every any through service to Weehawken when the railroad was independent. I had to change trains in Kingston in both directions when I rode. I saw one freight, and, like the passenger trains, was also pulled by a 4-6-0.
I made one mistake. I think the handover between the TH&B and the NYC was at Niagra Falls or Suspension Bridge, and not at Buffalo. The TH&B either had its own line or trackage rights into Buffalo, but the passenger trains between Buffalo and Niagra Falls were NYV, if I am correct.
I'll try, when I have time, to get the name of the junction between the NYO&W and the West Shore. YOu can look it up in the meantime.
Meanwhile, who can name a passenger railroad that did operate sleeping car service that never owned a Pacific 4-6-2?
Johnny
NYO&W left the West Shore main at Cornwall, NY
As for an answere to your question, I nominate The Rutland.
daveklepper I thought I got three. With the through service via Brewster, the New York and New England was not part of the New Haven. When it was taken over, the service via Brewster was dropped and rerouted to New Haven. Pasenger service from Willimantic to Brewster was restored, I believe, when the Pouhkeepsie Bridge was opened a Maybrook - Wilimantic service established but it didn't last very long. Did you include the West Shore as one of the three? Or did you mean the Putnam? YOu could say there are four: East -to-West: Harlem, Putnam, Hudson, and West Shore. So railroads are NYO&W, D&H and RUtland, and NY&NE. I did not include the New Haven. I simply mentioned that through service (which at one time did include dining and parlor cars, possibly not making it to the lightweight era) as something interesting. I now recall that when I rode it, and I rode it simply to allow my Boston area host to pick me up a few blocks from his home at the Newton station, the equipment was the ex-Roger Williams, but now I remember I had to change across the platform at New Haven, and the Budd equipment did not originate in GCT. YOu could also, as I mentioned, add the TH&B. Oh yes, there was the interesting move of the through sleeper to Lake Placid. Started out from GCT on the NYC, Albany or Troy to the north on the D&H, but then on the branch to Lake Placid it was back on the New York Central!
I thought I got three. With the through service via Brewster, the New York and New England was not part of the New Haven. When it was taken over, the service via Brewster was dropped and rerouted to New Haven. Pasenger service from Willimantic to Brewster was restored, I believe, when the Pouhkeepsie Bridge was opened a Maybrook - Wilimantic service established but it didn't last very long. Did you include the West Shore as one of the three? Or did you mean the Putnam? YOu could say there are four: East -to-West: Harlem, Putnam, Hudson, and West Shore. So railroads are NYO&W, D&H and RUtland, and NY&NE. I did not include the New Haven. I simply mentioned that through service (which at one time did include dining and parlor cars, possibly not making it to the lightweight era) as something interesting. I now recall that when I rode it, and I rode it simply to allow my Boston area host to pick me up a few blocks from his home at the Newton station, the equipment was the ex-Roger Williams, but now I remember I had to change across the platform at New Haven, and the Budd equipment did not originate in GCT. YOu could also, as I mentioned, add the TH&B. Oh yes, there was the interesting move of the through sleeper to Lake Placid. Started out from GCT on the NYC, Albany or Troy to the north on the D&H, but then on the branch to Lake Placid it was back on the New York Central!
Dave, I've reread and therefore have reconsidered your answers as complete. I was looking for the Ulster and Delaware Railroad, aka the Catskill Mt. Div., from Kingston to Oneonta, NY as a through service over the West Shore. But I really got more hung up on the Rutland. You said Rutland at Troy and I was hung up on the Rutland at Chatham where the milk trains from Bennington, VT achieved Harlem tracks. I was also hung up on Albany/Troy as the northern end. You mentioned the TH&B but there was also the NY and Ottawa via Tupper Lake from Utica which someone could have injected, too. The problem with history is the more you dig the more there is to be dug!
Still not within the 1 1/2 missing parts.
Lebanon Springs Railroad at Chatham?
Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut Railroad at Millerton?
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/harlemrr.Html
Actually you got 2 and 1/2. If I say more I will have to answer the question. Although the last full "1" has not been mentioned at all.
Deggesty The New Haven was a tenant of the Harlem from MO (Mott Haven Jct.) (5.4 miles above Grand Central) to the Harlem’s station. It has long been my understanding that the "Inland Route" was through Springfield and New Haven. Through service existed on this line as early as 1868, and was stopped before June of 1955. Amtrak revived the service, spottily, but no longer has a through train (In 1997, we rode from Boston to New York over this route). When Amtrak first revived the service, someone who was ignorant of competivive fares thought that fare should be higher than that for the Shore Line because the route was about four miles longer. When were there through trains through Chatham? There is no representation in the June 1868, June 1893, June 1916, or June 1930 Guides. Johnny
The New Haven was a tenant of the Harlem from MO (Mott Haven Jct.) (5.4 miles above Grand Central) to the Harlem’s station.
It has long been my understanding that the "Inland Route" was through Springfield and New Haven. Through service existed on this line as early as 1868, and was stopped before June of 1955. Amtrak revived the service, spottily, but no longer has a through train (In 1997, we rode from Boston to New York over this route). When Amtrak first revived the service, someone who was ignorant of competivive fares thought that fare should be higher than that for the Shore Line because the route was about four miles longer.
When were there through trains through Chatham? There is no representation in the June 1868, June 1893, June 1916, or June 1930 Guides.
But if it were a through train to Boston via Chatham it would have been NYC (as would the Harlem train through Chatham to Pittsfield and Adams, MA) and not pertinent to the question. And I waived New Haven off because it is outside the Hudson/Harlem valleys. There are still two parts of the answer left.
daveklepper West Shore....................................New York Ontario and Western as Tenant. But I forget the name of the junction, just know it is north of Haverstraw. Hudson..........................................both Albany and Troy as junctions with the Delaware and Hudson, and Troy as junction with the Rutland. The Laurentian, Montreal Limited were D&H trains, the Green Mountain, the Rutland Hudson..........................................Buffalo as junction with Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo Harlem...........................................for a very short time, until the New Haven takeover....of the New York and New England RR route through Wilamantic to Boston. Originally this connected with the Putnam line, also a NYC route from the NY Metropolitan area, except that the Manhattan terminal was the 155th Street and Eighth Avenue terminal of the Ninth Avenue Elevatged, and the Putnam line crossed the drawbridge that was later used by the 9th Avenue El's connection to the Jerome Avenue elevated subway line (now No, 4) in the Yankee Stadium vacinity. Both running via the Harlem and running via the Putnam, the junction was in Brewster, I think. But then much later there was a through service "via the indland gateway" between Boston and Grand Central Terminal using the NYC's B&A between Boston and Springfield, the NYNH&H from Springfiled south to the usual Woodlawn junction and the Harlem line into NY. Possibly Amtrak runs a train via this route today, I rode one once about 20 year ago. The equipment was the ex-Roger Williams Budd NH equipment.
West Shore....................................New York Ontario and Western as Tenant. But I forget the name of the junction, just know it is north of Haverstraw.
Hudson..........................................both Albany and Troy as junctions with the Delaware and Hudson, and Troy as junction with the Rutland. The Laurentian, Montreal Limited were D&H trains, the Green Mountain, the Rutland
Hudson..........................................Buffalo as junction with Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo
Harlem...........................................for a very short time, until the New Haven takeover....of the New York and New England RR route through Wilamantic to Boston. Originally this connected with the Putnam line, also a NYC route from the NY Metropolitan area, except that the Manhattan terminal was the 155th Street and Eighth Avenue terminal of the Ninth Avenue Elevatged, and the Putnam line crossed the drawbridge that was later used by the 9th Avenue El's connection to the Jerome Avenue elevated subway line (now No, 4) in the Yankee Stadium vacinity. Both running via the Harlem and running via the Putnam, the junction was in Brewster, I think.
But then much later there was a through service "via the indland gateway" between Boston and Grand Central Terminal using the NYC's B&A between Boston and Springfield, the NYNH&H from Springfiled south to the usual Woodlawn junction and the Harlem line into NY. Possibly Amtrak runs a train via this route today, I rode one once about 20 year ago. The equipment was the ex-Roger Williams Budd NH equipment.
I want to give it to you, Dave, but can't. And not just because I am being parochial in thought by limiting the question to the Hudson/Harlem Valley either. The TH&B train, I believe was a NYC train and not a TH&B train NY to Toronto, so I don't count that. The "inland route" would have been all NYC via Chatham off the B&A line; a CNE jct at Millerton was not effective because I believe it was north bound off the CNE to the Harlem Line and the I don't believe the :PUT had any direct trains to GCT.. But, yes, the O&W was the tenant on the West Shore Weehawken to Cornwall. As a hint the D&H connections at Troy and Albany are correct, too. There are two more parts to this Hudson/Harlem question to make it whole.
Just to keep things moving late on a Saturday night (I just heard from the other room that it is "live") lets put this one out since we are on the New York Central tracks in the Hudson and Harlem valleys lets stay with the Commadore's interests. All three NYC lines out of the Metropolitan area either hauled the trains of another railroad to the junction and one of the three actually had a tenant. What were the three connections whose trains shined the Commadore's rails and who was the tenant? Oh, the New York, New Haven and Hartford is not one of them.
Yes, Henry is right. As he says, the Harlem railroad eventually reached Chatham, going through White Plains, Dover Plains, and Wassaic (the current end of the MTA's Harlem line). Why go east from Boston and change at Chatham when you can go directly south along the Hudson (unless you are hunting for new route mileage)?
I yield.
Actually in Lincoln's time it was simply the Hudson River Railroad. South of the 60th St. yard the tracks came down 11th Ave. to 33rd St., curved southeast to 10th Ave. at 30th St. Except for local trains to Spuyten Duyvil, all passenger trains were moved to Grand Central in 1871. Lincoln's station became the milk depot.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR30thStreet.gif
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/HRR4.jpg
Lincoln's Inauguration
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g00000/3g04000/3g04500/3g04583v.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/07600/07636v.jpg
Lincoln's Car
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/08200/08257v.jpg
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3g00000/3g01000/3g01800/3g01832v.jpg
Since the NY and Harlem taversed the Harlem Valley to Chatham, NY thence west to Troy, the railroad with stops at Rhinecliffe, Poughkeepsie, etc, was the New York and Hudson River Railroad. But the Harlem did come into Manhatten as did the New Haven a few years ahead of the NY&HR RR.
If I had read your last post carefully, I would have seen that it was the Harlem Railroad's station, just below City Hall, that brought Abe Lincoln in from the north.
Yes indeed, but my question is about Lincoln's arrival on a railroad in the state of New York, and not about either of his arrivals in Philadelphia: the first from Trenton as scheduled, and returning to Philadelphia from Harrisburg in secrecy instead of going directly to Baltimore as planned. I referred to Barack Obama because his ride today had inspired the question, and also to see if anyone would point out that 30th Street Station in Philadelphia wasn't built yet.
Mike
Thursday morning, I named the Trenton and Philadelphia (1851 Guide), which had been renamed the Philadelphia and Trenton by 1868.
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