KCSfan Al, First I need to correct a mistake in my prior list. The Dallas-El Paso sleeper ran in the T&P's Westerner not over the MoPac which of course didn't go any where near El Paso. Since I live in Shreveport, shame on me if I missed a Shreveport-New Orleans car on a KCS train. Are you quite sure of this route as I remember the Southern Belle's sleepers were through KC-NO cars and the Flying Crow's sleepers didn't run to NO but were KC-Shreveport cars. If you can please let me know the years that the Shreveport-NO car operated which will possibly jog my memory. I couldn't locate any routes in Kansas or Oklahoma but since you didn't exclude those states I'll have to go back and do a more thorough search when I have the time. In the meantime here are some Minnesota routes: Minneapolis/St Paul-International Falls - NP's No's. 11 & 12 Minneapolis-Duluth - NP/s Twin Ports/Twin Cities Minneapolis-Duluth - Soo's No's. 62 & 63 The single Colorado route is: Denver-Grand Junction - Rio Grande's Mountaineer I think the following was discontinued prior to the time of your question but if I ever get to covering California routes I'd probably overlook it so I'll mention it now. San Francisco-Eureka - NWP No's. 3 & 4 Mark
Al,
First I need to correct a mistake in my prior list. The Dallas-El Paso sleeper ran in the T&P's Westerner not over the MoPac which of course didn't go any where near El Paso.
Since I live in Shreveport, shame on me if I missed a Shreveport-New Orleans car on a KCS train. Are you quite sure of this route as I remember the Southern Belle's sleepers were through KC-NO cars and the Flying Crow's sleepers didn't run to NO but were KC-Shreveport cars. If you can please let me know the years that the Shreveport-NO car operated which will possibly jog my memory.
I couldn't locate any routes in Kansas or Oklahoma but since you didn't exclude those states I'll have to go back and do a more thorough search when I have the time. In the meantime here are some Minnesota routes:
Minneapolis/St Paul-International Falls - NP's No's. 11 & 12
Minneapolis-Duluth - NP/s Twin Ports/Twin Cities
Minneapolis-Duluth - Soo's No's. 62 & 63
The single Colorado route is:
Denver-Grand Junction - Rio Grande's Mountaineer
I think the following was discontinued prior to the time of your question but if I ever get to covering California routes I'd probably overlook it so I'll mention it now.
San Francisco-Eureka - NWP No's. 3 & 4
Mark
I list in the 1960 guide a Shreveport 14-4 lightweight sleeper in each direction between there and New Orleans. Went back to L&A days from earlier guides of course using heavyweight sleepers.
One that everyone seems to miss in Washington State was the Seattle - Walla Walla sleeper that traveled from Seattle in the Mainstreeter to Pasco and was forwarded in a local NP train to Walla Walla.
Another one missed in the California section was the SP Owl sleepers between Fresno and Oakland and Fresno and Los Angeles at that time.
You are correct about Oklahoma and Kansas not having any intrastate sleepers. I have been unable to find any either.
I guess it is your turn as we have pretty well covered everything.
Al - in - Stockton
KCSfan Al, I started off working by states to answer your question only to find that I needed a 1959 or '60 OG to reduce the task to a manageable size. Here's as far as I got based on an earlier OG but I suspect some of these routes had been discontinued by the time you specified. Louisiana & Arkansas - None Missouri : St. Louis-Springfield and St. Louis-Joplin - Frisco's Will Rogers and Meteor St. Louis-Kansas City - Wabash's Midnight Ltd and City of Kansas City St. Louis-Kansas City - MoPac's Missourian Texas: Dallas-San Antonio - MKT's Katy Flyer Houston-Brownsville - MoPac's Pioneer Dallas-ElPaso - MoPac's Westerner Dallas-Houston - SP's Owl Ft. Worth-Galveston - Santa Fe's No's 101 & 9 Houston-San Angelo - Santa Fe's California Special Dallas-Amarillo - CB&Q's Texas Zephyr & No. 8 Unless I can find some more time to devote to it, I'll leave it up to someone else to come up with the routes in the remaining western states. Mark
I started off working by states to answer your question only to find that I needed a 1959 or '60 OG to reduce the task to a manageable size. Here's as far as I got based on an earlier OG but I suspect some of these routes had been discontinued by the time you specified.
Louisiana & Arkansas - None
Missouri : St. Louis-Springfield and St. Louis-Joplin - Frisco's Will Rogers and Meteor
St. Louis-Kansas City - Wabash's Midnight Ltd and City of Kansas City
St. Louis-Kansas City - MoPac's Missourian
Texas: Dallas-San Antonio - MKT's Katy Flyer
Houston-Brownsville - MoPac's Pioneer
Dallas-ElPaso - MoPac's Westerner
Dallas-Houston - SP's Owl
Ft. Worth-Galveston - Santa Fe's No's 101 & 9
Houston-San Angelo - Santa Fe's California Special
Dallas-Amarillo - CB&Q's Texas Zephyr & No. 8
Unless I can find some more time to devote to it, I'll leave it up to someone else to come up with the routes in the remaining western states.
I believe you covered the Missouri trains very well. You missed a pair of Louisiana sleepers between Shreveport and New Orleans on the KCS.
I was unable to find anything in Arkansas either. The one in Colorado was the only one I was able to find as well.
We still need more coverage on the other western states. You can eliminate Iowa,Nebraska, New Mexico, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oregon, Utah, Nevada, and Idaho. That should make it simpler.
California had the Lark between SF and LA. Colorado had the Denver- Alamosa sleeper on the D&RGW Colorado and New Mexico Express, the name referering really to the San Juan narrow gauge connection which of course ran into New Mexico, while the sleeper did not. New York had the New York - Buffalo sleepers on the New York Central (Buffalo Night Express), the DL&W Lackawanna Limited, and the Lehigh Valley Black Diamond, but the latter two ran through two other states even though the terminals were in NY. Pennsylvania had the PRR's Philly-Pittsburgh sleepers, using the Steel City for at least part of the trip. Texas had Houston - El Paso and Houston - Laredo, and Dallas - El Paso, all involving the SP, the latter also the T&P but don't know the train names. Washington had Spokan - Seattle on the NP, GN, and I would guess the Milwaukee as well, but don't remember the schedules well enough for the trains. The Illinois Temrinal interurban may still have been running the St. Louis Peoria sleeper but probably not. But I think there may have been a drop sleeper from Chicago to Springfield on the GM&O's Owl. The NYC was running an Albany - NY setout and pickup sleeper in 1950, but it did not last until 1960. The NYC with the D&H there was a Grand Central - Saratoga Springs sleeper and a Grand Central - Lake Placid sleeper. At one time these were handled on the overnight Montreal Limited. There was probably a drop sleeper to and from Rochester and maybe for Syracuse as well from GCT, using the Buffalo Night Express. Also GCT - Menassa. The Illinois Central must have had a drop sleeper to Cairo or Champaign-Urbana on the Seminole. The PRR had a sleeper from Erie PA to and from Philadelphia, and I think it stayed inside PA. Part of its run would have been on the PRR's Northern Limited, or Northern Express if my memory is correct. Georgia had Atlanta - Savanna, probably ACL.
Deggesty passengerfan During the late 1950's into the sixties how many states west of the Mississippi River had sleeping car routes entirely within a single state,name the states which RRs operated those trains and what were the origin and destination of the sleeping car routes? Al - in - Stockton Al, I'll name some states--and maybe some others will think of the city/town pairs and the roads. Missouri, Texas, California, Colorado, Washington, Oregon; will you allow Louisiana and maybe Minnesota? Johnny
passengerfan During the late 1950's into the sixties how many states west of the Mississippi River had sleeping car routes entirely within a single state,name the states which RRs operated those trains and what were the origin and destination of the sleeping car routes? Al - in - Stockton
During the late 1950's into the sixties how many states west of the Mississippi River had sleeping car routes entirely within a single state,name the states which RRs operated those trains and what were the origin and destination of the sleeping car routes?
Missouri, Texas, California, Colorado, Washington, Oregon; will you allow Louisiana and maybe Minnesota?
Johnny
KCSfan No one has identified the one remaining train yet and it doesn't seem likely that anyone will name it any time soon. It was the IC's Irvine S. Cobb which ran between Louisville and Fulton, KY. With two right answers Al-in-Sacramento is our winner and the next question is his to ask. Mark
No one has identified the one remaining train yet and it doesn't seem likely that anyone will name it any time soon. It was the IC's Irvine S. Cobb which ran between Louisville and Fulton, KY.
With two right answers Al-in-Sacramento is our winner and the next question is his to ask.
henry6Was there not trains for Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone?
Yes, the San Antonio and Aransas Pass Railway Company operated the Davy Crockett on an overnight schedule between Houston and San Antonio, via Yoakum. Westbound, the train covered the 238 miles in ten hours and twenty minutes. Eastbound, it burnt the rails up in ten hours even. According to the railway's representation in the February, 1911, issue of Traveler's Railway Guide, Western Edition, "...has become known as 'THE TRAIN THAT IS ALWAYS ON TIME.'"
Offhand, I do not recall any train named for the pioneer who needed "elbow room."
Yeah, I knew St. Louis was involved, kinda thought of Indianapolis but thats why I put the question mark in quotes.
Was there not trains for Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 James Whitcomb Riley, NYC to Detroit from St. Louis (?).
James Whitcomb Riley, NYC to Detroit from St. Louis (?).
Yes Henry, that's one of the two. It's not widely known but the Hoosier poet was also a humorist. You have the route wrong however. The Riley ran between Chicago, Indianapolis and Cincinatti. I'm going to keep the question open a while longer to see if anyone can identify the remaining train. If no one gets it I'll give the answer later tonight and we can move on to another question.
Dave,
Neither of the two remaing trains I have in mind were interurbans. Subject to being corrected, I don't think Ben Hur was a humorist by any stretch of the imagination.
One of the interurbans using the Indianapolis Traction Teerminal had a Ben Hur to Crawfordsville.
passengerfan I could only come up with two. The Will Rogers - Frisco - St. Louis - Oklahoma City Mark Twain Zephyr - CB&Q - St. Louis - Burlington Al - in - Stockton
I could only come up with two.
The Will Rogers - Frisco - St. Louis - Oklahoma City
Mark Twain Zephyr - CB&Q - St. Louis - Burlington
It looks like it's time for a hint or two. One of the other two that I know of ran entirely within the state of Kentucky. The other was named for a man whose greater claim to fame was as a poet rather than a humorist.
henry6Ok! I am confused and getting lost. There is another Quiz thread dealing with "trains" while this one is about "railroads". Both, however, are dealing with questions about different trains. I don't mind one way or the other, but its just a little confusing to me.
Henry,
Let me try to help you out. If you'll scroll back you'll see this is the "Classic Railroad Quiz" thread and the current questions is about trains named after humorists.
The other similar thread is "Classic Train Questions Part Deux". The current question on that thread has to do with trains that had mountain ranges is their names.
I hope that clears up any confusion.
I know of two more so let's see if you or anyone else can name them.
KCSfan On to the next question. I know of at least three US trains named for humorists. What were the names of these the trains, the RR's on which they ran and their routes? Mark
On to the next question. I know of at least three US trains named for humorists. What were the names of these the trains, the RR's on which they ran and their routes?
Mark, the DF never carried cars for the west coast. The CM and SW began carrying cars for Tampa and St. Pete only after the Southland was discontinued (it still ran for a while after the Dixieland was discontinued), and these two trains were then operated on alternate days.
Now, when I saw that the Chicago-Miami equipment on these two trains was the same, the thought came to me: the cars that came into Miami on SW went back out the next day on the DF, and the cars that came in on the DF went out on the SW (two days later, because the CM came in and went back out the day after the DF came in). Thus, daily service was provided with only three sets of equipment Chicago-Miami.
You are the only one to really work on this scheduling matter, so, please propound a question.
Johnny,
The DF and SW equipment problem is further compounded by the fact that each train carried at least three coaches and sleepers destined for west coast points. South of Jax these cars were carried in the West Coast Champion with a pair running to/from each of three cities, St. Pete, Tampa and Sarasota.
If the observation cars, and possibly the diners as well, were turned at Jax these would not present any problem. If this was the case I assume they were replaced by FEC cars for the balance of the run to/from Miami. Of course these cars were not an issue for the west coast sections since the Champion carried its own ACL diner(s) and obs car.
The problem was then confined to just the coaches and sleepers. As a minimum there would have to be a third set of coaches and sleepers running in a DF/SW equipment pool. This third set could alternate and run one trip as the DF and the next trip as the SW. I have no idea whether or not this was the practice. The other alternative would be to have two trainsets of coaches and sleepers assigned to both the DF and SW. The several times I rode the SW and the single time I rode the DF were all pre 1950 and I can't begin to recall what the train's schedules were at those times.
Mark, here is another clue. The Chicago-Miami cars on both trains had the same capacities--each train had one 18 seat coach, four 52 seat coaches, and the sleepers were identical: one 6 section, 6 double bedroom, one 8 section, 2 compartment, drawing room, one 12 roomette, 3 double bedroom, 2 single bedroom, two 6 compartment, 3 drawing room, one 3 compartment, 1 drawing room lounge on each train, and one 8 section, 2 compartment, drawing room that ran Nashville-Miami on the DF and Louisville-Miami on the SW. The observation cars probably were different, but they were cut off in Jacksonville sb, and sent back to Chicago the same day. The diners may have been different also, and ACL showed two diners Chicago-Jacksonville on the DF and only one on the SW (perhaps it was a diner-kitchen dormitory pair? ACF built 5 and Budd built 6 for PRR in 1949).
If my math is correct, based on the 1950 shedules you posted, The CM's actual round trip running time was 60 hrs 35 min. Add to this layovers of 9 hrs 35 min in Chicago and 2 hours flat in Miami for a total of 72 hrs. Thus this schedule could be handled by a single trainset.
On the other hand the SW and DF's round trip running time was 62 hrs 55 min with layovers in Chicago of 16 hrs and in Miami of 17 hrs 5 min, This resulted in a total "cycle" time of 96 hrs which is 24 hrs longer than the 72 hrs required to maintain an every 3rd day departure from each terminal.
Maybe I'm suffering from oldtimers disease because I can't see how it was possible for the SW and DF to run on their schedules with only a single trainset each. The fact that it's exactly one day, 24 hrs, longer than the requisite 72 hrs makes me suspicioous that I'm overlooking something obvious, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what it is.
First, let me say that I do not have a definite word as to just how the DF & SW managed to have the service that is shown in the February, 1950, Guide. From the equipment that is listed, I surmised a certain procedure that was followed; this procedure made it possible for the daily Chicago-Miami service to still be provided by only three sets of equipment.
Second, there were several variations after the Winter 1950 season, which ended with the SW and CM operating on alternate days after the Dixieland (the renamed Dixie Flagler) was discontinued. At the moment, I do not have any of the timetables or Guides which show these variations near my computer. Some of these did require two sets of equipment for at least one of the trains.
Now, a clue (perhaps) as to why I believe that it was possible for three sets to provide the service:
The observation cars and diners were cut off in Jacksonville in the morning, and thus could leave for Chicago that evening. (It is interesting that the ACL representation shows no diner south of Jacksonville, and the FEC representation shows only a Jacksonville-Miami diner for each train.) Remember that the sleepers at this time were heavyweight, and probably were from the Pullman pool.
I thought the trio ran with a single trainset each until 1957 when the Dixie Flagler was discontinued. After that time the CofM and SW operated on alternate days which necessitated the addition of a second trainset to each one. Al seems to be saying something a bit different in his prior post. Hopefully someone will confirm exactly what the set up was.
It was right about that 1950 time period when the City of Miami and South Wind added a second consist each operating over there routes while the Dixie Flagler remained a single consist. All three trains had lost there coach only status by that time and Pullmans were operated in each consist as well. At first the Pullmans were heavyweights and were soon replaced by lightweights as the car builders caught up with orders. When the two trains added a second consist they each had more service time in Chicago. According to the information I have the City of Miami was always the most popular of the three with the South Wind second and the Dixie Flagler third. There are photos of the City of Miami running with as many as twenty cars in the winter months. I will always regret not riding any of the IC trains when I had the chance. I believe the IC and PRR trains both provided every other day service over there routes when they added the second consists.
PS I dont have all of my Official Guides at the house and the closest I have is a June 1954 one. I have dozens in a storage locker along with RR magazines that I don't have room for in my apartment. I only keep a few guides and all of my hardbound RR books at the apartment in legal bookcases ( It keeps them clean and cuts down on the amount of dusting). I have to stop collecting or start shopping for a bigger place.
KCSfan Johnny, Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains: CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day Are these the schedules on which your question is based? Mark
Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains:
CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day
SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day
DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day
Are these the schedules on which your question is based?
CM: Lv Chicago 8:10 am, Ar Miami 3:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 5:25 pm, Ar Chicago 10:45 pm the next day.
SW & DF: Lv Chicago 10:00 am, Ar Miami 6:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 11:30 am, Ar Chicago 6:00 pm the next day.
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