Johnny, you have the main part of the answer, and the reason for moving the cars should be obvious.
Also, remember that a good portion of the Rocky Mountain Rocket's patronage in season was with tour groups. Please continue.
The Rock Island served both Denver and Colorado Springs with its Rocky Mountain Rocket, splitting the train at Limon, and using UP track to reach Denver. I did not know of moving RI cars directly between Denver and Colorado Springs.
Johnny
The Colorado Midland did not provide passenger service to Denver and was not in existance during the time frame where you refered to official guides or when I regularly rode the Joint Line. This railroad did provide passenger service to both Denver and Colorado Springs and interchanged freight with the D&RGW at both locations during the times we are both referring to. I meant Ghost in the sense of unseen presence as far as revenue passengers between the two points rather than being out of existance.
Also, certain long-distance round-trip tickets, inlcuding multi-railroad tickets, were honored without extra charge on Joint-Line D&RGW trains between Denver and Colorado Springs, providing in some cases a free side-trip. This railroad's round-trip tickets were so honored, but not round-trip, one direction only. A courtesy extended by the D&RGW to this railroad's long-distance passengers.
Colorado Midland.
Thought you would have the answer by now. This RR did have passenger service to both locations but not between them directly. And most of its freight at both locations was interchanged with the D&RGW.
I think he's looking for an older ghost... MP trains to Denver were operated by D&RGW crews - in fact the original Colorado Eagle had both MP and D&RGW logos on the front.
Dave:
The only other railroad in the area was the Missouri Pacific. In looking in an 1948 OG, the Colorado Eagle stands out as the one you want.
Ed Burns
I still want the answer to the Ghost railroad, whose cars could occasionally be seend on a Joint-Line train between Denver and Colorado Springs, but did not provide direct passenger service between those two points. Handling the cars was a D&RGW responsibility, and the railroad did interchange frieght with the D&RGW. I'd certain there were a good number of through passengers as well, and at one time or another, there may have been a through passenger train in the long past. The answer should be obvious, and so should the reason for the movement of the cars. Not the UP. not any part of the Burlington system, not the D&RGW, not the AT&SF or any component of these railroads.
The cars did always belong to on particular name train.
The DZ extension to Colorado Springs was a late but direct answer to Rock Island's Colorado Rocket serving both Denver and Colorado Springs. The semi-articulated and low profile 1936 DZ trainset, which was used until 1956, couldn't be separated into pieces that could be handled in other trains - a problem fixed with the brand new 1956 DZ.
I suspect that the DRGW did not have enough business for a Denver-Colorado Springs train, but handled the CBQ cars as a convience for the CBQ.
Next question for you.
Of course there was the third train, the TZ, but thst was not available to me for Denver - CS travel, possibly no local passengers were handled between those two points, or possibly my through Chicago - LA or Chicago - SF tickets were not applcable. Both CS and Denver often were stop-overs for me. My sister and niece lived in Denver, and I had work in Colorado Springs. Also, Leonard Bernstein and his first wife Alice were good friends of mine and of my late sister Lillian. After Alice passed on, I did meet his second wife, Dorothy, once. Eventually, Leonard and Dorothy moved from Denver to Colorado Springs, after Leonard retired from the Southern Pacific before the merger with the UP. When the RGZ was discontinued and Amtrak ran over the D&RGW, Leonard was the Amtrak liaison officer and also remained responsible for supervising all D&RGW corporate meal events and the office cars.
Again, I'll use the remainder of the question as my new question. Ghost railroad Denver - CS please?
My experience is later. I rode 1961 - 1964. At that time there were only two trains in each direction, and the Sante Fe cars from definitely on a D&RGW train. Even earlier than your experience, the AT&SF even had a separate Chicago - Denver train. Not very competitive between endpoint, but intermediate points gave it business. I don't think it was ever streamlined, but it was running at the end of WWII.
Now can you or NP-Eddie figure out which railroad shifted cars between The Springs and Denver and why; and did not run its own train to do so?
I checked both 1957 and 1960 Official Guides. Both showed that the Santa Fe trains (191-190-28 and 27-201-200) ran in a slot between the Royal Gorge and the Colorado Eagle in both directions. The other trains on the section, C&S 1/2 and 7/8, also had separate schedules. On the other hand, AT&SF cars were serviced in Denver as if they belonged to C&S.
In 1957 the cars were spread out among various trains, by 1960 the through cars to LA were on the Chief (19/20) in both directions.
You are correct! Before its removal, the train was a "stub" between Winnipeg and Pembina, ND. I don't know if the single car RDC was turned at Pembina or the engineer just switched ends. The NPRHS has employee timetables. One subdivision on the St. Paul Division has the operation noted. The RDC spent abouot 30 minutes in Pembina before returning to Winnipeg.
Next question to you.
In at least one direction, northbound, the AT&SF cars from Raton were addded at Pueblo to the Scenic Limited or Royal Gorge (at one time or another either name was used), and the DZ slumbercoach added at Colorado Springs. May not have happened southbound; perhaps the (MP-D&RGW Colorado Eagle was used. As far as I know, for many years the AT&SF did not have a separate train between between Pueblo and Denver, but added its cars to a D&RGW train.
But when the slumbercoach of NP or CB&Q ownership was tacked on the D&RGW train at Colorado Springs, on a few occasions of the year a car or two of still another railroad was tacked on with it. Which railroad and why? (Ed, these were not slumbercoaches, just usually a coach or two and a sleeper, deadheading.) And it could also happen in reverse southbound.
Regarding your question, and from an NP man, of course, the NP was the railroad, which ran a day train between Fargo and Winnipeg. Possibly this is where the NP's RDC was used? The two states are North Dakota and Minnesota, because the NP line does jog slightly east into Minnesota on its way north to the Canadian Boarder, or one can say that the border between the states jogs slightly to the west. Winnepeg is in Manitoba, so that is the Canadian province involved. For a short while the train ran rather uselessly between Winnipeg and somewhere close to the Candadian - USA boarder, possibly Emerson? No attention was paid to making any connection for passengers on this shortened run to the NP main via a bus. The GN's overnight train continued several years more, but dropped its sleeper before dicontiniuing altogether. I rode the GN train, but never the NP one between Winnapeg and the USA.
The Denver Zephyr operation to Colorado Springs used AT&SF track in one direction. AT&SF cars were never involved in the train's actual operation, but an AT&SF switcher may have moved the cars from the D&RGW station, where the westbound train arrived, to the AT&SF station where the cars were added to the eastbound Royal Gorge. The AT&SF and Colorado and Southern operated the line between Pueblo and Denver together, also including the D&RGW in the Joint Line's operation. AT&SF and C&S had switchers supplied by each company to the pool painted with both companies' initials.
Page 226 of "Car Names Numbers and Consists" states that four cars from the DZ were given to the DRGW for forwarding to Colorado Springs on their Royal Gorge train. I don't know which railroad deadheaded Slumbercoaches.
This railroad, no longer in existence, had a day train between Fargo and Winnipeg. The railroad in question was able to remove that train two states, but failed to notify a provincial government of that desire. Name the two states and that province along with the railroad. What happened to the train during this time of uncertainty.
You are correct, but:
Between Denver and Colorado Springs the tracks of still another railroad were used in one direction. Which railroad? And the D&RGW train Scenic Limited or Royal Gorge) was in part a joint operation with that railroad for connection to one of its trains, where? And which railroad's cars would once in while be coupled behind the slumbercoach for a non-revenue ferry move, with the option of a car being used for overflow if necessary to just provide some passengers with place to sit? (Very rare. But happened at least once.)
Look forward to your providing the answers and asking the next question.
You are looking for "Slumbercoaches". The NP and CBQ cars were in a pool between the NCL and Denver Zephyr. "Car Names Numbers and Consists" describes that pool. The NP eventually purchased MP, NYC, and B&O (except one car) cars. "Car Names Number and Consists" states that the CBQ purchased two of the NP cars to equalize mileage. The DZ's Colorado Springs equipment was forward on a DRGW train to Colorado Springs. The exterior was unpainted stainless steel.
You and I both forgot the K, Ingleside.
My question, the fully streamlined North Coast Limited and off-season Mainstreater carried the NP's two-paint job, including the cars owned by the CB&Q and the SP&S. But after a while there was always one passenger-carrying car that did not have this paint scheme, and often it was actually owned by the NP.
What kind of car was it. Define its appearance, Who built it. In addition to the NP, what other railroad's(s') tracks did it role over and on what other train(s) with endpoints and junction. And in addition to all that, there was another railroad whose passenger equipment locked couplers with these cars, even though these cars never were in a train run by that raiload. This additional equipment was desdheading, but occasionally could be used for overflow seating. Please do your best to get all the answers before posting.
The inner tracks on Market became the main ones after the Muni acquisition, and the former Muni ones were removed as the number of lines that shared them decreased. The other stuff still in use by MUNI includes the site of the Geneva Division carbarn at San Jose Avenue (J,L,M) and the cable lines on Powell, Washington, Jackson (both truncated to Hyde) and Mason/Sacramento/Taylor. Third street was Market Street Railway, but since the line was abandoned before the MUNI acquisition, it doesn't really count. A small amount of track near the west portal of the Sunset tunnel was also jointly operated at one time.
The company was managed for many years by Byllesby, which also managed lines near Pittsburgh PA.
Market Street Railway. The Heritage route F cars use what were the inner, or Market STreet Railway, tracks on Market Street. The outer tracks of the four-track installation on Market Street were the MUNI trscks. The conversion from cable to trolley-wire electric operation occurred with the restorationi of service after the famous fire of 1906. The Embarkadaro surface tracks are ex-freight railroad. Not sure about Third Street, was it MUNI or Market St. Ry? The subway of course is new, and the lines feeding it, J. L, M, and N, were always MUNI, except that I think is a place on the J where, for a short distance, the tracks were shared with Market Street Ry.
Some cable operation did continue after the fire, but not on Market Street, and some feeder lines were electric before the fire.
The Washington Baltimore and Annapolis began running cars on D.C. streetcar tracks in 1910, after converting from AC to DC on its mainline (The AC cars were too heavy for the conduit track construction). "Plows" were hung off truck-mounted hangers under the car for conduit operation. The plows were added and removed at a pit near 15th and H street on the northeast side. Initially, trains changed ends in the middle of the street near the Treasury Building, but later an off-street station was built between 12th and 13th NW. WB&A rented the plows from WRy&E, later Capital Transit. The Washington-Virginia Railway also used some conduit trackage.
New question:
This sprawling privately owned city sytem got its start in the cable era. It remained privately held, competing and cooperating with a city-owned system until bought out by a city bond issue during World War II. Some of the system remains in operation.
rc: You might also want to describe the other interurban, the one that did enter the downtown Washington area and how it did it.
Correct. Your question.
Washington and Old Dominion? W&OD cars ran to Rosslyn VA where passengers transferred to conduit-plow-equipped DC Transit equipment.
In its interurban days, the interurban cars did not provide through service to downtown where the commuters worked, but required them to change to a local streetcar run by a different company to complete the journey into the city proper. Another interurban did reach the center of the city, and if the interurban I am looking for had had track connection at the connecting point (unsure if there ever was one) and equipment like this othe interurban, with a special facility at the connecditon point, they could have provided service. But their own equipment lacked a necessary attachment.
This interurban diesalized and went freight-only. It was asked by the Government to restore passenger service during WWII and bought one or two second-hand gas or diesel-electric cars and began a one-trip-iinbound each morning, oe-trip outbound each evening commuter service. It did not serve directly city or business district where most commutors worked, and they changed to and from another rail line for the complete trip each way. Even in the electric passenger service days, as far as know there was never through service. Portions of the line's tracks may remian, but the line itself has been abandoned. Passenger service was discontinued shortly after the war ended and gas rationing ended. Name it.
Take it away, Dave.
Waiting for the question. Or do you wish to had it back to me?
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