Ok WAG Trans Atlantic Express? or perhaps to honor some famous English musicians from Liverpool Beattle.
Thx IGN
Bingo - IGN has it. The train was actually the NYC's (Michigan Central route) Trans-Atlantic Limited. In the 1930's and early 40's it ran only between Chicago and Buffalo with through cars that were carried in the New York Special from Buffalo on to New York City.
As to my "senior moment" I had forgotten that this train was the subject of a recent question on the "Part Deux" thread and I feel foolish for repeating it. The next question is yours IGN.
Mark
Well it wasn't west(Oriental Limited) south (Panama Limited) so I tried east. & I thought it had been used already.
Well Next Question:
In the category of infrastructure Tunnels. What is the oldest railroad tunnel west of the Mississippi River? Name, location & current status?
East Barrett Tunnel in Kirkwood Missouri, built by the MP in 1851? It was abandonded in the mid 1940's and filled in.
K4sPRR East Barrett Tunnel in Kirkwood Missouri, built by the MP in 1851? It was abandonded in the mid 1940's and filled in.
In researching the question I did not look far enough. When checking your answer I realized my error. I should have asked still existing.
Go and ask the next question.
[quote user="narig01"]
K4sPRR: East Barrett Tunnel in Kirkwood Missouri, built by the MP in 1851? It was abandonded in the mid 1940's and filled in.
IGN,
Lets take your question a step further, the oldest tunnel west of the Mississippi still in use, where, who built it and when, and who has it now?
You cannot answer, just think of this as an extension of your original question...so you can monitor the answer.
K4s
The oldest I know of would be tunnel No.1 near Cisco, CA which was completed by the Central Pacific in 1866. Today this tunnel is on the Union Pacific's Overland route. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't an even older one somewhere but I've been unable to find one so far.
Gray Summit in Missouri is my guess, built in the 1840's by the Missouri Pacific, was rebuilt in the 1920's and is currently used by UP.
IGN, if not give us a clue????
The East Barrett tunnel dates to 1850. It was the 1st tunnel west of the Mississippi river. However it has been abandoned and filled in.
Rgds IGN
narig01 The East Barrett tunnel dates to 1850. It was the 1st tunnel west of the Mississippi river. However it has been abandoned and filled in. Rgds IGN
Right, we got that one already. I was told to go with the next question so I expanded on what you wanted originally, the oldest still in use. Two guess's so far, you got the answer?
Could we get a hint so we could move this thread along?
I will defer the next question to anyone who has one. Some miscommunication on the current question has caused some delay and I apologize for that. So...if anyone has a question to post please do.
Thanks!!
The following quotations are taken from the opening three paragraphs of a very widely known and successful book.
"The village of [name omitted] stands on the high wheat plains of western Kansas, a lonesome area that other Kansans call 'out there.' . . . Not that there is much to see -- simply an aimless congregation of buildings divided in the center by the main-line tracks of the Santa Fe Railroad . . . Down by the depot, the postmistress, a gaunt woman who wears a rawhide jacket and denims and cowboy boots, presides over a falling-apart post office. The depot itself, with its peeling sulphur-colored paint, is equally melancholy; the Chief, the Super-Chief, the El Capitan go by every day, but these celebrated expresses never pause there. No passenger trains do -- only an occasional freight."
Give the name of the village, the name of the book, its author, and its subject. Also, in what New York-based weekly magazine were the (almost complete) contents of this book excerpted some months before the book itself was published? For extra credit, name two or three other pieces of writing by the very well-known author of the book, now deceased.
Hints: .. The event(s) that triggered the writing of this book took place on November 15, 1959, placing it within the time boundaries of the Quiz; but the book itself did not appear in book form until over six years later.
.. The author's struggles to research and write this book were the subject of two biographical movies, both from the mid-2000s.
.. (I know that the corporate name of the Santa Fe is inaccurate and that there are two solecisms (minor grammatical errors) within the names of the three trains. No points for pointing that out! )
TIEBREAKER (no research, please): In what town was the closest Santa Fe station with passenger service to the inhabitants of the remote Kansas village? Does that town have passenger service today under Amtrak and if so, name(s) of trains and endpoints?
This is one you either know or don't, I think. No research, which would make it too easy. If I am surprised by a lack of pertinent reponses or WAG's I can always add a hint or two.
Haven't done one of these in a while. Good Luck, all! - allen smalling
For research I asked my wife.(I hope this is allowed). Could not remember the name of the town, however. Author Truman Capote. Subjects name Starkweather(?)
OK, she's right about the author but the book has nothing to do with the Fugate-Starkweather murders.
Location, name of book, subject, anyone? Magazine connection?
I'll add a small hint: the name of the other town, the one with the ATSF depot where the "celebrated expresses" paused, was and is the county seat.
Al. the name of the book is In Cold Blood and it appeared in serialized form in the New Yorker magazine. Its setting is in rural Kansas and the closest town on the Santa Fe would be Garden City where, in 1959 no trains stopped (I admit to having done a little research after your hint that it was a coujnty seat). Dodge City would be the closest town with passenger train service and the Southwest Chief currently stops there.
You're making good progress. Title of the book and its first appearance over several issues of THE NEW YORKER is right on the money.. The county seat of Finney County is Garden City. However, that is the closest Amtrak stop to the village in question -- not Dodge City, which is the next stop to the east, as it was during the days of ATSF operation of the Super Chief, etc. My 1958 OGR and an old ATSF brochure about the Super Chief route both confirm that Garden City was the next stop west of Dodge City (this applies to Fifties operation and AFAIK all the way to Amtrak day in May 1971). If the SW Chief no longer stops at Garden City that would be something fairly new. I'll check the Amtrak site on that (remember, anything Amtrak is not old enough for the quiz).
The village in question is some miles west of Garden City, on the main U.S. highway as well as the ATSF mainline. It is also very close (as Capote remarks) to the Central/Mountain time zone line, which gives the residents unusually late (dark) early mornings.
But the kicker is: what happened the night of November 15 1959 that would draw a writer from New York City (on assignment to THE NEW YORKER) all the way out to Kansas? Tragic event.
ADDENDUM: Again, too recent to be part of this quiz, but I just called up a hypothetical trip from Chicago to Garden City Kansas (code GCK), for December 28. Train no. 3, the Southwest Limited, is scheduled to leave CUS at 3:00 p.m. and arrive Garden City the following day at 6:21 a.m. One-way coach fare is $178.00.
3 Southwest Chief2011-12-28T15:00:00.000-06:00 Chicago, ILUnion Station(CHI)Departs: 3:00 PMWed Dec 28 2011Chicago, IL - Union Station (CHI) Station News
(Also, IN COLD BLOOD cites several instances of people taking Santa Fe trains to and from Garden City. In 1959-60, people still really used those trains, especially folks coming from Chicago or Kansas City because ATSF trains were so fast and practically an air-line through Kansas to GCK.)
Al, the town in question must be either Lakin or Syracuse and I'm going to guess Lakin since no trains stopped there in the 50's but the Grand Canyon did stop at Syracuse.
The subject of the book was the brutal murder of a farm family ( the farmer, his wife and two children) by two paroled ex-cons.
I checked the Amtrak schedules and found I was wrong in thinking the SW Chief didn't stop at Garden City - You're absolutely right, it does stop there.
KCSfan Al, the town in question must be either Lakin or Syracuse and I'm going to guess Lakin since no trains stopped there in the 50's but the Grand Canyon did stop at Syracuse. The subject of the book was the brutal murder of a farm family ( the farmer, his wife and two children) by two paroled ex-cons. I checked the Amtrak schedules and found I was wrong in thinking the SW Chief didn't stop at Garden City - You're absolutely right, it does stop there. Mark That's right, the "name" ATSF trains or as Capote styled them, the "celebrated expresses," stopped in Dodge City -- next stop to the west Garden City -- and shortly afterward, heading westward, the line crossed into the Mountain time zone and shortly after that, Colorado. That is pretty fundamental. IIRC over the decades there was some rerouting of the Kansas to New Mexico stretch--perhaps the most efficient line was "bent" to the north so that ATSF varnish could serve Colorado?--I don't quite remember. Date the action begins: November 15, 1959. Slain family of farmer, wife and two kids were the Clutters. Their murders actually made the pages of the Sunday NEW YORK TIMES, and when Capote read the account, it suggested to him the prospect of a piece of long journalistic writing. He was sponsored by THE NEW YORKER magazine, and originally had intended for it just to be one long piece; but when the killers were arrested in LV, NV and brought back east to Garden City, KS, where Capote was still researching, he knew he had a book in store. The story of how the book came to be written and the good and harm it did to writer Capote's life has been well detailed in the book CAPOTE: A BIOGRAPHY by Gerald Clarke (still in print) and in less detail but more entertainingly in the two biopics CAPOTE and INFAMOUS, which were released within about a year of each other in the mid-2000s. Both easily to find on DVD. Even now people who pick up IN COLD BLOOD usually like it quite a lot, partly for Capote's writing style and the "Homeric" narrative urgency of the book (that "can't put it down" quality), and partly because he more or less initiated the tradition of "true-crime" documentary written with some of the techniques of fiction--as later followed THE ARMIES OF THE NIGHT, HELTER SKELTER, EYES OF A STRANGER and so many other true-crime books. So what is left unanswered? The village the Clutters lived in when they were murdered (Garden City, I may have mentioned, is the county seat for that village). Okay, research if you like. One of you guys ha to have an old OGR or the kind of road map that shows parallel railroad lines.
That's right, the "name" ATSF trains or as Capote styled them, the "celebrated expresses," stopped in Dodge City -- next stop to the west Garden City -- and shortly afterward, heading westward, the line crossed into the Mountain time zone and shortly after that, Colorado. That is pretty fundamental. IIRC over the decades there was some rerouting of the Kansas to New Mexico stretch--perhaps the most efficient line was "bent" to the north so that ATSF varnish could serve Colorado?--I don't quite remember.
Date the action begins: November 15, 1959. Slain family of farmer, wife and two kids were the Clutters. Their murders actually made the pages of the Sunday NEW YORK TIMES, and when Capote read the account, it suggested to him the prospect of a piece of long journalistic writing. He was sponsored by THE NEW YORKER magazine, and originally had intended for it just to be one long piece; but when the killers were arrested in LV, NV and brought back east to Garden City, KS, where Capote was still researching, he knew he had a book in store.
The story of how the book came to be written and the good and harm it did to writer Capote's life has been well detailed in the book CAPOTE: A BIOGRAPHY by Gerald Clarke (still in print) and in less detail but more entertainingly in the two biopics CAPOTE and INFAMOUS, which were released within about a year of each other in the mid-2000s. Both easily to find on DVD.
Even now people who pick up IN COLD BLOOD usually like it quite a lot, partly for Capote's writing style and the "Homeric" narrative urgency of the book (that "can't put it down" quality), and partly because he more or less initiated the tradition of "true-crime" documentary written with some of the techniques of fiction--as later followed THE ARMIES OF THE NIGHT, HELTER SKELTER, EYES OF A STRANGER and so many other true-crime books.
So what is left unanswered? The village the Clutters lived in when they were murdered (Garden City, I may have mentioned, is the county seat for that village). Okay, research if you like. One of you guys ha to have an old OGR or the kind of road map that shows parallel railroad lines.
Al, it's been many years since I read the book and I had forgotten the name of the family was Clutter until you mentioned it. Also, from memory, I was thinking they lived on a farm in a rural area not in a town so I did have to research that point and found that they lived in Holcomb. Moving west from Garden City, the towns shown in the Santa Fe schedules in my 1954 OG are Deerfield, Lakin, Hartland, Kendall and Syracuse. Holcomb is not listed so perhaps it lies close to but not actually on the rail line.
KCSfan Al, it's been many years since I read the book and I had forgotten the name of the family was Clutter until you mentioned it. Also, from memory, I was thinking they lived on a farm in a rural area not in a town so I did have to research that point and found that they lived in Holcomb. Moving west from Garden City, the towns shown in the Santa Fe schedules in my 1954 OG are Deerfield, Lakin, Hartland, Kendall and Syracuse. Holcomb is not listed so perhaps it lies close to but not actually on the rail line. Mark
Holcomb is indeed the name of the village where the Clutters lived, and you've got all the answers right, Mark! The win is yours!
For those just now joining the discussion: book-IN COLD BLOOD; author-Truman Capote; subject-a multiple murder on November 15, 1959 and that event's consequences; murder took place in-Village of Holcomb Kansas, on the old ATSF main line; trial took place in Garden City, KS, county seat of Finney County (which includes Holcomb). No passenger trains stopped at Holcomb in 1959 (and probably none since then); nearest ATSF passenger train service (today Amtrak) is the stop in Garden City to the east; most of the IN COLD BLOOD script was published over several consecutive issues of THE NEW YORKER magazine (1965) and then the hardcover book became a huge bestseller (1966). The reason for the long lag time between the Clutter family murders and IN COLD BLOOD's publication is the years of lag time Dick and Perry, the convicted killers, bought themselves after they were put on death row.
Wonderful book. Not a railroad book, but there are some mentions of how people rode the ATSF trains--one of the killer's fathers lived near Kansas City and took the train to his son's trial. And, of course, Truman Capote and research assistant Nelle Harper Lee rode Santa Fe trains. When they departed -- as Amtrak calls it -- GCK, they took the train to Chicago, there to connect to NYC.
A modern touch--it's easy to Google Earth the village of Holcomb, Kansas. The post office has been moved out to the highway but BNSF "Transcon" (pretty much the former ATST mainline) still runs right though the town, and grain elevators still flank it. It is easy to see the Clutter home with the long lanelike drive Capote mentioned, and its row of Chinese Elm trees. The Clutter estate land is rented out for agriculture but although the Clutter house is maintained, no one has lived there since November 15, 1959.
[Personally I enjoyed and appreciated the opp'y to contribute a question. I seem to be singularly lacking in knowledge of RR history between the late 19th Century and World War One.]
********** SOooooo, the next question is yours, Mark! If you decide you don't want to post one, please let us know since there seems to be very little traffic at this thread at this time.
And to all: Merry Christmas! And thanks, Mark! - al smalling (al-in-chgo)
Al, Mark, by 1950 Holcomb was not even shown in the public timetable; it is listed in the index with the note that it is not shown on any schedule. And, in 1930 the same information is given. Apparently, it was not an important place, so far as the SFe was concerned.
Johnny
For passengers, no, Holcomb hasn't existed for Lord knows how long.
As for grain, it seems to be holding its own. I have one of those BNSF system maps that somehow squeezes anything with a signpost and it is there. None of my questions had to do with passenger trains stopping in Holcomb; in fact Capote made note that they didn't. Now read the book and tell me how many times ATSF trains are mentioned in conjunction with Holcomb or Garden City. When the Holcomb kids of 1960 got bored with the drive-in, they'd sit there and watch the trains; apparently there was plenty of action. And of course Holcomb exists--it still has a functioning post office! Holcomb then and now had grain elevators by the tracks, and an extra track. Good chance that Herb Clutter's own milo, etc., rode in ATSF hoppers, but that's not the point.
Try Google Earth--
I guess the only thing I got right was Truman Capote. Still I had to ask my wife. My first thought of Kansas was The Wizard of Oz.
I've been past there on US 50 a few times and I don't really remember the place.
This new question should be a breeze. What was the largest rail abandonment in our biggest state? Name the railroad and the year it was abandoned.
narig01 I guess the only thing I got right was Truman Capote. Still I had to ask my wife. My first thought of Kansas was The Wizard of Oz. I've been past there on US 50 a few times and I don't really remember the place. Thx IGN
Do you have untapped psychic abilities? Because it sounds as though you are channelling Truman Capote:
"Anyone who has made the coast-to-coast journey across America, whether by train or by car, has probably passed through Garden City, but it is reasonable to assume that few travelers remember the event."
(In Cold Blood, p. 29, Folio Society edition)
al-in-chgo narig01: I guess the only thing I got right was Truman Capote. Still I had to ask my wife. My first thought of Kansas was The Wizard of Oz. I've been past there on US 50 a few times and I don't really remember the place. Thx IGN Do you have untapped psychic abilities? Because it sounds as though you are channelling Truman Capote: "Anyone who has made the coast-to-coast journey across America, whether by train or by car, has probably passed through Garden City, but it is reasonable to assume that few travelers remember the event." (In Cold Blood, p. 29, Folio Society edition)
narig01: I guess the only thing I got right was Truman Capote. Still I had to ask my wife. My first thought of Kansas was The Wizard of Oz. I've been past there on US 50 a few times and I don't really remember the place. Thx IGN
KCSfan This new question should be a breeze. What was the largest rail abandonment in our biggest state? Name the railroad and the year it was abandoned. Mark
While it was not an interurban the subject railroad had a short life span similar to many of them. It's construction began in 1901 and it ceased operation prior to WW2.
Fort Worth and Denver. 1939....
...or, wait...International Great Northern, about the same time.
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KCSfan KCSfan: This new question should be a breeze. What was the largest rail abandonment in our biggest state? Name the railroad and the year it was abandoned. Mark While it was not an interurban the subject railroad had a short life span similar to many of them. It's construction began in 1901 and it ceased operation prior to WW2. Mark
KCSfan: This new question should be a breeze. What was the largest rail abandonment in our biggest state? Name the railroad and the year it was abandoned. Mark
Is it the Copper River and Northwestern Railway in Alaska, which ceased operation in 1941?
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