Mark, I am really puzzled by your last hint. The April 25, 1954 IC timetable shows no line which runs to a state line and then stops, unless you count the line from Jonestown to Trotters Point, Miss. (crossing the main line of the Y&MV at Lula), and the IC had a ferry service across to Helena, Ark. And, this line was freight only before February, 1950. The only other lines that I see as being east-west are the Indianapolis-Effingham line (freight only before 1950), the Chicago-Fort Dodge line (passenger trains to the end), and the Meridian-Shreveport line (passenger service until in the late sixties).
The IC entered St. Louis over terminal roads, but I do not know of anything distinctive of a passenger train serving East St. Louis or the junction with the routes over the Merchants Bridge or the MacArthur Bridge. The train that connected from the Creole in Carbondale and the train that connected to the City of New Orleans and the City of Miami (through coaches to both main line trains) went through East St. Louis, using the Eads Bridge. The other trains to/from Carbondale used, I believe, the MacArthur Bridge. The Chickasaw and the train to the Panama and the Seminole ran through DuQuoin and not Murphysboro (the northbound Chickasaw carried the cars to St. Louis from the Panama and the Seminole.
There is also the line from Peoria to Evansville (freight only before 1950), but it does not seem to cross the Wabash in a due east-west direction.
I do not see any place other than the St. Louis area which could have had a connection with the MKT.
Johnny
Actually...way back in the MK&T era, Katy would connect with IC, so to speak, in western Louisiana. The Louisiana Railway and Navigation Company of Texas was chartered on March 27, 1923, to acquire a line extending from McKinney to the Texas-Louisiana state line near Waskom. The LR&NT was affiliated with the Louisiana Railway and Navigation Company, which operated a railroad between Shreveport and New Orleans. It was organized by Edenborn to acquire 181 miles of track between McKinney and the state line formerly operated by the Missouri, Kansas and Texas Railway Company of Texas.
I could be wrong, but I think this is what Mark is looking for. I do not know; however, the underlying uniqueness of their passenger service.
Here's my 2 cents...
The IC route that would remotely qualify for the question would be the Meridian-Shreveport-Lorraine, Louisiana line (at the Louisiana/Texas border) where it connected with the Texas & Pacific. Apparently, this line was part of a grand, pre-Civil War plan to develop a Charleston, SC- San Diego transcontinental line that would follow the 32nd parallel. Unfortunately, the answer doesn't hold up in light of MKT and passenger service hints.
Bingo - Buck Dean wins since he identified this line just ahead of ZO's reply. It was the IC's 19.4mi. Lorraine Branch running west from Shreveport to the Texas-Louisiana state line at the community of Lorraine (just east of Waskom, TX). It was completed in 1866 by the Vicksburg, Shreveport and Texas RR which subsequently became the VS&P, Y&MV and ultimately the IC.
In 1900 the Shreveport Sherman and Southern RR completed a 30 mile extension from Jefferson,TX to a connection with the VS&P at Lorraine. This was acquired by the MKT in 1901 and from that date until 1923 was part of the Katy's Greenville (near Dallas) to Shreveport line which reached Shreveport via trackage rights over the VS&P / Y&MY / IC from Lorraine. In 1923 the MKT sold this line to the LR&N of Texas which later became the Louisiana, Arkansas and Texas, which was the L&A's Texas affiliate.
In 1956 the KCS completed it's new Deramus classification yard on the northern outskirts of Shreveport. At that time the last seven miles of the old LA&T line west of Lorraine was abandoned in favor of a new route that reached Shreveport via a connection with the KCS main just north of Deramus Yard at Texas Jct. When the L&A traffic was rerouted the IC's Lorraine Branch had no further purpose whatsoever and was promptly abandoned.
The last passenger service was a mixed train which ran between Shreveport and Greenville until its discontinuance in the late 1930's. This train was shown in the IC timetables of that era as No. 38 westbound and No. 51 eastbound. No. 51 covered the 19.4 miles from Lorraine to Shreveport in one and a half hours. Its average speed of 12.9mph gave it the distinction of being the slowest train listed in the IC passenger timetables.
Mark
Deggesty Mark, I am really puzzled by your last hint. The April 25, 1954 IC timetable shows no line which runs to a state line and then stops . . .
Mark, I am really puzzled by your last hint. The April 25, 1954 IC timetable shows no line which runs to a state line and then stops . . .
Johnny, I'm sure it's listed but it's pretty obscure and easily overlooked. It's shown as Table 38 - Lorraine Branch in the IC representation in my copy of the June 1954 OG.
PS -
A few traces of the old IC Lorraine Branch can still be seen in Shreveport. Curiosity got the best of me so last Thursday I drove over to find Lorraine and anything that remained of the old ROW at its junction with the L&A. Lorraine is not shown on any current maps but I had seen an old Geological Survey map that showed the railroad crossing State LIne Road about a half mile north of US Hwy 80 which I assumed had been the junction point. I couldn't find State Line Road or any other road at or near the point it was shown on the old Geological Survey map so I decided to stop in the State Line tavern on US 80 to have a beer and talk to some of the locals at the bar.
When I asked where Lorraine was they told me I was in it and the tavern was all that remained. One of the locals who hunted in the vicinity told me there some crumbling remains of a few long abandoned houses in the piney woods a half mile or so back of the tavern. I assume this was site of the former Lorraine community and the old junction. As to State line Road, it no longer existed and none of them remembered it. Since there are rattle snakes in those woods and I didn't have my boots on I decided it would be unwise to hike into the woods to find the old ROW and junction point so I returned to Shreveport. My quest was unsuccesful but my curiosity was a least partly satisfied.
Excerpt from 22nd Annual Report of the Railroad Commission of Louisiana (1921)
http://books.google.com/books?id=fnMpAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA6
Order No. 2319
Houlton Lumber Company, et al.
vs.
The Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad.
In re Discontinuance of Agency Station at Goodbee and its Re-Establishment at Lorraine.
On July 23, 1919, a number of persons, firms and corporations located in the vicinity of Lorraine, Louisiana, filed with the Commission a petition praying that the agency station now maintained by the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad at Goodbee, Louisiana, be removed from Goodbee to Lorraine.
The carrier was served with a copy of the petition, and the application was likewise brought to the attention of interests at Goodbee, in order that they might take such steps and submit such evidence to the Commission as to them seemed proper. The case was accordingly assigned for hearing and was taken up at sessions of the Commission held in Baton Rouge on September 23, 1919, and November 18, 1919; when evidence was heard by the Commission introduced by petitioners, the defendant carrier and the protestants at Goodbee.
The attitude of the railroad is practically one of neutrality; contending itself with submitting evidence as to the comparative earnings of the two stations, making plain, however, its position with regard to the maintenance of agencies at both stations. It alleges that there is not sufficient traffic to permit it to maintain both points as agency stations, and this is unquestionably a fact. It falls to the Commission, therefore, to decide as between the conflicting claims of the two communities.
Goodbee was established as an agency station quite a number of years ago, shortly after the projection of the line of defendant from Baton Rouge to Covington. It is 6 miles from Covington and 16 miles from Hammond. There was an attempt on the part of the Goodbee interveners to show that an agreement had been entered into between the railroad company and various persons to maintain an agency at that point, in view of certain concessions said to have been made in the donation and purchase of right of way; but the deeds to the carrier do not bear this out. There were at one time two saw, mills at Goodbee. furnishing a fair volume of traffic to the carrier, but these have been discontinued; and there is nothing there at this time to create any Volume of business in excess of that of any community of its size. The carrier placed a witness on the stand to give the figures of earnings and expenses at Goodbee station. For a period of seven months ending October 31, 1919, the total receipts on inbound and outbound freight and passengers receipts at Goodbee station amounted to $874.67, which gives an average monthly revenue of $124.95; while the average monthly station expense amounts to $147.50, the deficit being $22.55. The cash fare collections and ticket sales for the period July, 1918, to June, 1919. amounted to $160.96.
Lorraine is situated on The Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad, 13 miles from Covington and 10 miles from Hammond. It is the junction of a line of railroad owned by the Houlton Lumber Company, but operated by the Kentwood & Eastern Railroad.
It is the logical point for handling traffic originated at and destined to a number of saw mills, logging operations, agricultural industries, etc., and from the record it appears that this traffic is of considerable volume.
A witness in behalf of the petitioners testified that his company moved approximately one thousand cars per year, practically all of which moved via the Lorraine junction; and he further testified that if there was an agent there with whom communication could be had and through whom cars could be ordered, the volume would be greater. This represents only carload business via the New Orleans Great Northern Railroad to Folsom and moving it thence to destination by motor truck. The territory surrounding Lorraine appears to be developing in rapid degree; and it is clear to the Commission that pressing necessity exists for an agency station there if the business is to be handled with reasonable despatch and satisfaction.
The discontinuance of the agency at Goodbee will in no wise interfere with the use of the station as a point for shipping and receiving freight; nor will it interfere with the movement of passengers to and from there, as trains will continue to stop as at present. In passing it may be said that there are numberless stations in Louisiana both on the line of the defendant and other railroads originating and receiving far greater volumes of freight than Goodbee where agents are not maintained.
It is the opinion of the Commission that the public interests will be served best by authorizing the discontinuance of the agency at Goodbee and its re-location at Lorraine; and for these reasons the Commission will so order. It is, therefore,
ORDERED, That the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad, within sixty days from the date of this order be, and it is hereby, commanded and required to establish at Lorraine, Louisiana, an agency station; and to thereafter maintain the same; and, concurrently with the establishment of such agency station at Lorraine, authority is hereby granted the Yazoo & Mississippi Valley Railroad to discontinue its agency station at Goodbee, Louisiana; and to thereafter maintain the said station as a flag station for its trains.
BY ORDER OF THE COMMISSION.
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, January 27, 1920.
Commissioners:
SHELBY TAYLOR, Chairman.
JOHN T. MICHEL. HUEY P. LONG. *
Attest: A true copy,
HENRY JASTREMSKI, Secretary.
* http://www.knowla.org/entry.php?rec=450
[quote user="wanswheel"]
[quote]
Wans, I continue to be impressed and amazed by your ability to find ancient information like this. Your postings add much to the subjects discussed on the CT forum and are greatly appreciated.
However, in this case the Lorraine referred to in the referenced report of the RR Commission of LA is not the one located on the line that was the subject of my recent question. There are / were two Lorraines in Louisiana and both were at one time served by the Y&MV so it's understandable to confuse the two. The Lorraine referenced in the report you posted is located in Tangiphoa Parish in southeast Louisiana and was on a line that branched off the IC's Chicago - New Orleans main at Hammond. The Lorraine I had in mind was in Caddo Parish which is in the northwestern corner of the state. It was at the end of the IC line that ran all the way across north Louisiana from Mississippi at Vicksburg to the Texas state line.
Wans has a secret "search engine" I think.... he comes up with the niftiest detail.
I'm the heir apparent on BOTH threads. I'll take this one and post a new question here...can somebody go to the other and take over?
thanks
Mark, sorry about that and thanks for enlightening me. I never heard of Lorraine and was a million years from suspecting two Lorraines. Checking the map, which neither Lorraine is on, I see places near the wrong Lorraine (Hammond, Goodbee and Covington) north of Lake Pontchartrain.
Mike
FlyingCrow I'm the heir apparent on BOTH threads. I'll take this one and post a new question here...can somebody go to the other and take over? thanks
Buck, lets have that question you promised us.
I'm unexpectedly out of pocket away from my "material" sources...can you take over please.
Buck
FlyingCrow Mark I'm unexpectedly out of pocket away from my "material" sources...can you take over please. thanks Buck
Glad to, Buck.
While there were a number of passenger trains named for birds, few were named for animals. What US trains were named for (or contained the name of) a mammal and what RR(s) operated them? There may have been earlier ones which I don't know about so please limit you answers to trains that ran from 1930 forward.
Mark, there certaily were not many passenger trains named for animals. Looking through the February, 1950, Guide, I found only two, and, possibly, three: The SFe's Antelope, the NYC's Wolverine, and the Monon's Thoroughbred (which would be a horse). I ahve a memory of an SP Beaver, but I do not recall when it was operated, though I think it was after 1930 and before 1950.
Thanks for taking it, Mark. Good question.
GN's "Gopher" and "Badger" come to mind along with California Western's "Skunk".
The Antalope, Santa Fe? Was the Nancy Hanks named after a race horse? Thoroughbred, Monon
Mountain Goat GN? Clamdigger, NYNH&H
Central of Georgia's "Nancy Hanks II" and "Man O'War" were both named for racehorses.
The Antelope, Wolverine, Beaver (yes Johnny it was a SP train), Badger, Gopher and Skunk are all trains that I had in mind. There was also a New England Wolverine - NYC (B&A). The Thoroughbred would be acceptable since it refers to a whole family of horses as would be the UP's Pony Express for the same reason. IMHO the Nancy Hanks and Man o' War are only marginally acceptable since they were named for individual horses and not an animal family.
Johnny and Buck both named three correctly but since Johnny was first to do so I'll call him the winner and ask him to give us our next question.
Way to go, Johnny
I'm sorry to be so late in proposing another question, but here it is, at last:
What train had a name that was associated with the supporters of King Charles I of England when Parliament made war agaisnt him? Yes, the train was operated in the U.S.A. What road operated it, and what were its end points?
THE CAVALIER, C&O, Wash. D.C. (Newport News) - Charlottesville - Clifton Forge - Ashland KY. At one time it may have gone all the way to Cincy.
I was under the impression that the Cavalier was a Norfolk Cincinnati train run by the Norfolk and Western, not the C&O.
I could be wrong; I might be confusing the Cavalier with the F.F.V.
I do know, though, that the last daytime passenger train over N&W main (Norfolk - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Huntington WV - Cincy) was the POWHATAN ARROW, which ran until about 1968. (The overnite N&W run being, of course, THE POCOHONTAS).
To me it's more fun to answer without prior research. I can look in an old 1953 O.G.R. if necessary. - al
Dave is right. The supporters of Charles I were called "Cavaliers," and many of the people living in Virginia during the mid-late seventh century preferred him to Oliver Cromwell and his "Roundheads." A brother of my ancestor who migrated to Virginia in 1675 was knighted by Charles II; I have no idea as to what service he rendered the Stuarts.
Al, you did have the right area.
There was another Cavalier, and it also fit the description, being a PRR train between New York City and Cape Charles, with ferry service between Cape Charles and Norfolk. However, I was thinking of the N&W train--but if one of you had named the PRR train, youwould have certainly been right.
Take it, Dave; it's yours.
Give the name or names of the train that for many years had five engine changes on a terminal to terminal route that was less than 1000 miles in length. What was the reason for each engine change and if possible give the six types of locomotives used. Give the name or names of the railroad or railroads involved in the train's operation.
Fo rmany years the C&O had three Washington/Newport News - Cincinnati trains, the George Washington, Sportsman, and Fast Flying Virginian. One, I think the GW, once had a through NY - Chicago Pullman, NYC between Cinci and Chi and of course PRR DC-NYC. The Sportsman had a Toledo section with through Pullmans to Detroit via the NYC, then a through train over the B&O. Also a Louisville section. I think the FFV was the first to get curtailed, cut back.
The N&W had the Pocahuntas as the premier overnight express Norfolk - Cincinnati and the Cavallier as the made-of-work daytime local. But both were always sharp operations with good equpment, including the heavyweight days which lasted. Around 1949, the Powhatan Arrow was added as a fast datime lightweight Pullman-built streamliner. But still pulled by steam, a J.
Need a hint: The train has been discussed on this Forum. In its last incarnation, same end points, only required ONE engine change!
Another hint. A major improvement project relocated two of the engine changes, but kept the number of them the same, but then upon near-completion, eliminated one of the engine changes, and for many years there were four instead of five. The last days of the train's existance saw only one engine change. But no physical plant project was needed for this change. Different paint, however.
A merger brought the engine changes down from 4 to 3. But before this, an occasional power shortage of a particular kind could eliminate one engine change.
I am really surprised no one has the answer yet, just like my New England State question. (Three words, six locatons, only one actually served. So here are some more hints.
As inaugurated, the train may have had only four engine changes . But then it moved definitely to five. Then there was a change in the location of two of the changes, and the detailed nature of the power between them. Then the number of changes was reduced to four. Then in the post-WWII era, an occasional shortage of a specific type of locomotive occasionally may have reduced the number of changes to three on a very few occasions. But then a merger reduced the number of changes to three. Under Amtrak there was only one change of locomotives. The train does not run today (but I think it should), and travel between end-points is possible by train but requires one change of trains. And the current route that is possible misses three states that the train served.
Further the train was inaugurated at the behest of a railroad president whose own railroad officialliy did not run the train although its tracks were utilized for a rather small fraction of the total route. Travel over the route of the train is possible today with a critical piece missing.
I hope the answer is now obvious and that we will have a winner.
You're making me think of the Montrealer...let me see. CN to CV to B&M to NH to PRR to and from Montreal and Washington, DC. Vermonter is the succssor in Amtrak terms.
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