Atlanta and West Point
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Atlanta - West Point was operated by the railroad of that name. The Atlanta and West Point and the Alabama and West Point jointly operated "The West Point Route" between Atlanta and Mobile, which was used by the real all-Pullman Crescent Limited, on the Southern Atlanta -Washington, PRR, Washington - NY, and L & N Moble - New Orleans. Also the same route used by the coach and Pullman Piedmont LImited. The Southerner streamliner, like today;s Amtrak Crescent. went via Birmingham on the all-Southern route.
If the two states are Georgia and Alabama, then the route must be Waycross - Mobile. But Florida and Alabama would have it Jacksonville - Mobile. And I did ride the Gulf Wind several times, both between Jacksonville and Tallahasee and all the way to and from New Orleans.
The West Point route had some excellent Pacifics, both railroads, looked like copies of the Southern's best but with traditional black and white, no green and gold. And they continued to use steam for some time after the Southern dieselized the Crescent north of Atlanta, until at one point the Southern diesels ran through to Mobile. I don't remember any West Point route passenger diesels. I think the through passenger trains all used Southern or L&N power during the diesel era.
When I rode the Gulf Wind, it was a good train, with an observation lounge open to all passengers (like other Seabord streamliners), a full diner, reclining seat coaches, only occasionally a rebuilt heavyweight, and one or two sleepers, 6 and 10's, if I remember correctly.
The map shows Central of Georgia...but that's too obvious and simple.
The "Heart of the South" says Seabord, but let me correct some errors first, as my memory returns. The Alabama and West Point connected with the L&N in Montgomery, not Mobile, and the juncntion with the Seabord line to Talahasse and Jacksonville was in Flomington. I think the Seabord had its own line to Montgomery, AL, and it may have come from Atlanta, or possibliy Athens. Possibly Plains is on that line. Also, I think Waycross was an important jucntion on the ACL, not the Seabord, and the ACL had a passenger service between Waycross and Montgomery, including at one time a through coach off one of the Champions from New York.
daveklepper The "Heart of the South" says Seabord, but let me correct some errors first, as my memory returns. The Alabama and West Point connected with the L&N in Montgomery, not Mobile, and the juncntion with the Seabord line to Talahasse and Jacksonville was in Flomington. I think the Seabord had its own line to Montgomery, AL, and it may have come from Atlanta, or possibliy Athens. Possibly Plains is on that line. Also, I think Waycross was an important jucntion on the ACL, not the Seabord, and the ACL had a passenger service between Waycross and Montgomery, including at one time a through coach off one of the Champions from New York.
Dave,
In an earlier reply to Al-in- Chicago I pointed out that the SAL/L&N junction on the route of the Gulf Wind was River Jct. (Chattahoochee, FL) not Mobile or Flomaton, AL. The Seaboard did not run to either of these two points.One end of the SAL line through Plains was Montgomery. The other was in the second largest city in GA, not Atlanta or Athens.
Mark
But Flomaton was the junction between the L&N line to Chatahoochi and its line to Montgomery, and that was the point where power was changed, with the Seabord power running over the L&N to Flomaton. The crews probably changed at Chatahoochi. At least that is what I remember. At Flomaton, in much of my experience, the Gulf Wind was often combined with the Piedmont coming down from Atlanta, for the run to Mobile and New Orleans. You can confirm if my memory is correct on this point.
My guess is Savannah. (And I did get Mongomery as the other end of that line, already.)
Finally someone gets a cigar. The route was Savannah - Montgomery. The single passenger train on that line was a local headed by one of the SAL's shovel nose doodlebugs with a single coach.
You're right about the Gulf Wind being combined at Flomaton with other trains. IIRC at one time the Piedmont Ltd. (from NY via Atlanta) and the Pan American from Louisville ran combined between Montgomery and New Orleans with the Gulf Wind's cars being carried between Flomaton and NO. I can't say for sure but I thought the SAL/L&N engine change on the Gulf Wind was at Chattahoochee not Flomaton.
In any event it's your turn to ask the next question.
OK As we all know, the New York Central terminal electrification and the New Haven's electrification that became more than a terminal electrification took place because of a city ordinance banning steam locomotives from Manhattan.
1. Where and for how long did this ban continue to be violated, by which railroad and on which railroad line?
2. Up though the end of WWII and after, steam continued to be used in New York City. Which railroads and where? What was the very last steam locomotive operation in New York City, which railroad and where?
3. For all the above, what was the replacement motive power?
4. List all points where electric power in and out of Manhattan swapped with steam on all railroads serving Manhattan. The diesel age is not included. There is a trick to this question. One change point is not very obvious.
OK...we're talking Manhatten here, not Brooklyn, Bronx, Staten Island or Queens. So we know that the NYC did use steam on the west side for switching but major change was at Harmon for freight and passenger; NH did it at New Rochelle or White Plains; PRR did it at Manhatten Transfer in NJ; LIRR did it at Jamaica. But there were several yards in the Bronx and Manhatten for CNJ, LV, and DL&W (Harlem Transfer) which switched with steam until diesel arrived...but I know the NYC and the DL&W used steam ferries into the 50's and all roads used steam tugs, too!
You are right, except that the New Haven never changed engines at White Plains, the New ork Central certainly did change engines at White Plains and continued to do so in the diesel era, and some of this was restored even during Conrail when FL-9's started having problems and the City got after Conrail for using diesel in the Park Avenue tunnel when they could not perform on electric, (Fumes getting into the Waldorf's main restaurant.) Commonly thought of as North White Plains, the actual station is White Plains North Station, and for 25 years my place of business was close by. The White Plains, North White Plains boundary is close by also, but the actual station and most of the yard is in White Plains.
But when I said Manhattan, I meant Manhattan. When I said New York City, I did indeed mean the entire city, so you barely scratched the service (Do I mean surface or service? Sometimes the Almighty might be in the errors!) . Care to add? And ALL the entine change points up to dieselizaton, not just the main ones.
So then I should include B&O to Staten Island, Brooklyn Eastern Distrct Terminal and Bush Terminal roads in Brooklyn...Hoboken Manufacturers (Hoboken Shore) across the North River
NYC changed at North White Plains on the Harlem; NH also changed engines at New Haven, Stamford ,and Port Norris (when needed)....PRR's Exchange Pl., JC had steam into the fifties as did all the other NJ roads who's smoke blew accorss into NYC. But you might want to add South Amboy, NJ to the list, too on the NY&LB (read PRR). The LIRR did most of their steam changing at Jamaica but could have also several places further east if needed, but not on a regular basis.
All of the railroads and places you mentioned are correct. But keep going. Have you considered all the passenger trains that went out of Penn and GCT? How about all frieght service? What passenger trains entered NYC but NEVER rached either Penn or GCT? I think you will get all the answers, just hang in there and start reviewing everything you know. And you have not mentioned the last use of steam by a class I in New York City. Hint: It was not used in revenue service.
KCSfan You're right about the Gulf Wind being combined at Flomaton with other trains. IIRC at one time the Piedmont Ltd. (from NY via Atlanta) and the Pan American from Louisville ran combined between Montgomery and New Orleans with the Gulf Wind's cars being carried between Flomaton and NO. I can't say for sure but I thought the SAL/L&N engine change on the Gulf Wind was at Chattahoochee not Flomaton.
Johnny
daveklepper Atlanta - West Point was operated by the railroad of that name. The Atlanta and West Point and the Alabama and West Point jointly operated "The West Point Route" between Atlanta and Mobile, which was used by the real all-Pullman Crescent Limited, on the Southern Atlanta -Washington, PRR, Washington - NY, and L & N Moble - New Orleans. Also the same route used by the coach and Pullman Piedmont LImited. The Southerner streamliner, like today;s Amtrak Crescent. went via Birmingham on the all-Southern route.
[Dave Klepper}The West Point route had some excellent Pacifics, both railroads, looked like copies of the Southern's best but with traditional black and white, no green and gold. And they continued to use steam for some time after the Southern dieselized the Crescent north of Atlanta, until at one point the Southern diesels ran through to Mobile. I don't remember any West Point route passenger diesels. I think the through passenger trains all used Southern or L&N power during the diesel era.---- [Johnny] I do not know that the Southern diesels ran south of Atlanta on the WPRte/L&N. When the Southern dieselized its trains, it showed, in its timetables that diesel power was north of Atlanta only until it indicated that diesel power was used all the way into New Orleans.
Also, I saw A&WP/WRA passenger diesels in Atlanta 1960-62.
[Dave Klepper}When I rode the Gulf Wind, it was a good train, with an observation lounge open to all passengers (like other Seabord streamliners), a full diner, reclining seat coaches, only occasionally a rebuilt heavyweight, and one or two sleepers, 6 and 10's, if I remember correctly.
[Johnny] The L&N's two 5 DBR-Observations (Royal Canal and Royal Street) that were operated on the Crescent until in the fifties were moved to the Gulf Wind. I rode in them. I also rode in an upper berth from Jacksonville to New Orleans in 1967 (oneof L&N's 6-6-4's).
New York Central steam in Manhattan before the West Side Improvement Project
60th St. Yard
11th Ave. & 54th St.
11th Ave. & 40th St.
11th Ave. & 34th St.
11th Ave. & 32nd St.
30th St. Yard
10th Ave. & 24th St.
OOOOOOOHHHHHH YYYYEEEEAAAHHH!
I had made the correction that it was Montgomery and not Mobile earlier or I would not have won the answer. And Plains was on the Seabord's Savanna - Mongomery daily passenger train each way. See one of the earlier posts. Henry6, the photographs are truly beautiful and wonderful, but you still have some answers to provide. One hint I gave you: The last use of steam by a Class I within New York City was in non-revenuie service, but it was regular use up to the end that this Class I used these locomotives. Another hint, there were only two steam locomotives involved involved.
Hint No 3: Regarding engine change points, electric to steam, you have mentioned four Class I's that had regular passenger service into Manhattan by train, not just be ferry boat and/or bus. There was a fifth Class I. Which was it and where was the engine change point?
Hint No 4. One of the class I's that you did mention, at one time had a steam-locomotive passenger and freight route into New York City, and at one time this route (for passenger trains) actually entered Manhattan at a terminal that does not exist anymore (there are subway tracks underneath its location and a subway station there), and at one time the operation was cut back and did not any longer enter Manhattan but did continue in steam long enough to be dieselized. The route was never electrified, except a portion of it was used by a now defunct electric operation which shared the cut-back New York City outside-Manhattqan terminal.
Hint No. 5. One of the class |'s you mentioned had a steam route into New York City that you did not mention, terminated outside Manhattan. This route exists electric today. For a short time it was extended further toward Manhattan, but never actually entered Manhattan, and a particular switch, that would have allowed the steam locomotive and its train to enter Manhattan, the class I's engineers were instructed that should they get the clear signal to proceed into Manhattan, they were to blow their whistle to signal the tower to change the route to the terminal outside Manhattan.
Hint No. 6: One of the class I's you mentioned (pretty obvious which one) had trains from Manhattan to Atlantic City. Where was the engine change point?
Then use your head on all the passenger trains that left the two Manhattan main railroad stations and you should pick up a few more engine change points. One doesn't exist because the electrification to that point was removed.
Hint No. 6 Freight service into New York City, but not Manhattan, actually involved regular change of power from electric to steam to continue in New York City itself. The passenger trains on this route (now fully electrified) simply used steam to a connection point that still figures very importantly in train operation but is no longer an engine swap point and has not been for a very long time. These passenger trains used steam over a long electrified line. So there were two engine change points involved in this route, one just for freight and one for passenger, and the changes worked in opposite directions.
Immediately I can add B&O has having service into Penn Sta. therefore having to change from steam to electric along the PRR somewhere...probably Manhatten Transfer. Likewise the LV at the same time utilized Jersey City and Penn Station thus had steam going to Manhatten Transfer and Exchange Pl. And did I mention the Put?
Yes, as long as the railroads were run by USRA (WWI), the B&O did use Penn and did have engine change at Manhattan Transfer. You mentioned the LV and that was the 5th Class I that continued, and its engine change was moved to the approximate location of the Aldene connection, I think the tower name was or still is Hunter, south and west of Newark, where Pennsy GG-1's or the singe R-1 (4-8-4) ELECTRIC was swapped for one of LV's Pacifics. The Put was what I was looking for. Its original New York City terminal was the 155th and Eighth Avenue (Polo Gounds) elevated station, and peope would arrive or leave using the Ninth Avenue elevated (and its 6th Avenue branch) into and from downtown Manhattan. After the IRT took over the elevated, about 1905, and constructed the elevated for the subway on Jerome Avenue in the Bronx, the el took over the "Putnam Bridge" and the Put's temrinal was moved to Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx, where passenger would still arrive or leave via the elevated, and the el continued to a junction with the subway line between the 161st and `167th Street stations. Since you got the Put, I can declare you winner.
But the last use of steam by a Class I in New YOrk City was the use of two 0-6-0T shop switches and the East Bronx electric locomotive and mu-car prepair and overhaul facilitiy of the New Haven.
And the Long Island did provide through service to the donwtown Brooklyn Sands Street terminal of the Brooklyn United elevated system, but never ran over the Brooklyn Bridge into Park Row, Manhattan. There was a connection between the Atlantic Avenue line and the elevated tracks at Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues.
The Hell Gate Bridge route was not electrified until about 1931. Trains like the Federal and the Montrealer continued with steam under the catenary west of New Haven, picking up a Pennsy DD1 at Haarold Tower. Freights would use electric south to Oak Point yard in the Bronx, but then go back to steam to Fresh Pond Junciton and Bay Ridge. Brooklyn.
The LV trains to Excchange Place, JC, continued with steam over the Pennsy tracks. Only the Penn Station LV trains changed locomotives.
The history of the LIRR and the subway system reveals a lot of through operations between the LIRR and Brooklyn els, the operation to Sands Street is just one of many.
The irony of being able to answer this question came about last Thurs. when a friend of mine told me he had a picture of an LV steamer side by side with a GG1 coming into Newark, NJ from the east. I noted that the LV did use the PRR to Penn Sta. during WWI which was abandoned but later reestablished with the changover at Hunter. He reminded me that the B&O also had Penn Sta. rights during WWI. So, Voila! The answser came clear...but I thought I did mention the PUT earlier!
All that does not mean I have a question to proffer at this moment...but will before the evening is over!
Ok...as long as we are in New York Harbor, lets stay there. If you were to reach New York City from the west, you have to go through New Jersey. Which was the first railroad terminal city those western travelers had to use. And what was the railroad. Also, how many passenger roads did use Jersey as a terminal leaving passengers to be ferried across the Hudson or North River? Out of how many waterfront terminals? Send your answers while I take off my socks to be sure I can count all.
The first waterfront terminal was not in Jersey City or Hoboken or Weehawken, but Perth Amboy, reached by the Camden and Amboy Railroad, part of which is now the New Jersey Transit River Line, and which had the John Bull steam locomotive imported from England and modified from an 0-4-0 to a 2-4-0, the first applicaton of a pilot truck to any locomotive anywhere.
Hoboken Terminal: Delaware Lackawanna and Western, later the Erie moved in, then the Erie Lackawanna, and now New Jersey Transit and Metro North via NJT (MN's two west-of-Hudson lines). Downstairs is PATH, formerly Hudson and Manhattan Railroad. NJT has light rail as well as commuter and MN trains. Public Service of New Jersey had an extensive trolley terminal, at one time both an elevated station and loops on the surface.
:Liberty Park, Jersey City Now without rail connections, but to get a streetcar connection to the Hudson County Light Rail using restored Newark - Twin Cities PCC cars. Main terminal for Jersey Central and used by through trains of the Reading and Baltimore and Ohio, although technicly these were also trains of the Central Railroad of New Jersey. .
Exchange Place, Jersey City. PATH, former Hudson and Manhattan, station downstairs. Gone is the Pennsylvania's station, used by commuter trains long after through trains accessed Manhattan to Penn Station. Some of the PRR commuter trains originated on the New York and Long Branch. (So did some of the CNJR trains at the above terminal.) Also used by the Lehigh Valley's Jersey City trains that did not run to Penn Station, Manhattan. Local streetcar service revived during WWII to the Westinghouse plant in Kearney, but then abandoned a second time in 1947.
Pavonia, Jersey City. Erie and New York, Susquahanna, and Western, Not operating today. PATH downstairs, formerly Hudsona and Manhattan, still operates today, with New Jersey Transit Light Rail added/
Weehawken. New York Central, former West Shore Railroad, also New York Ontario and Western. Public Service streetcars, now New Jersey Transit Light Rail, possibliy commuter service restored in the near future.
The Susquahanna had a train to bus connection north of the Pavonia station, near the Lincoln Tunnel entrance. This became a terminal when the Susquahanna left the Erie station and reduced its passenger service to two rush hour only trains each way. The Eirie may have used the same station r one of its own as a train to bus transfer station while continueing to run to its watefront terminal.
According to Cunningham's Railroads of New Jersey you have missed the C&A terminal by several miles, Dave. But with the other, later terminals, you are on track (the most overlooked is probably the Reading to CNJ's Terminal). So for kicks lets hold a few minutes to see if you can correct the C&A and add three lines to the Erie Terminal (big hint).
I have been a frequent visitor to Hoboken terminal since 1946 by train and by boat and also remember riding the orange and cream PS cars once from the upstairs terminal to the top of Bergen Hill; was given a walking tour of the entire yard and buildings one day at the tender age of 14! Did take the steam ferry several times from Weehauken but never rode a train in or out...did get to see and touch Virginia City parked there one time, don't know where Beebe or Clegg were. Bun never got into any of the other waterfront terminals!
Did the Camden and Amboy get no closer to NYC than South Amboy? That might be what you are looking for. I don't have the maps that you have or the gazzette and seveal miles is not a particularly lng way off.
The Erie did have several predicessor companies. Possibly one was named the New York and New Jersey, my memory is correct. Possibly the original name of the Erie was the New York and Lake Erie. That is about the best I can do with what I remember.
Incidentally, as far as I know, the Ulster and Delaware neve did run through trains to Weehawken the way tne NYO&W did (via Kingston). There may have been a through Pullman at one time, though. The West Shore did at one time have through Pullmans that were switched to Chicago and possibly other western trains at Albany.
And Erie's Jersey City terminal may not have been its very first. Wasn't there a terminal earlier called Pierepont or sometime similar? Wait, of course, before the Erie consolidated, it reached Chicago over a connecting railroad, Great Western? Is that the third RR you are looking for?
One could also say that the Canadian National used Exchange Place since for a short time there was the through Lehigh Valley - Canadian National - Grand Trunk Western Jersey City - Chicago train, The Maple Leaf, moved to Penn Station. I think this had through coaches as well as Pullmans,
You nailed it pretty well, Dave The C&A did land at South Amboy. And the Erie did host, operate, and absorb the New York and New Jersey, the Northern RR NJ, and the New York and Greenwood Lake (same with the Susquehanna, yes, but Suzy Q left the fold to fend for herself). Extra credit for citing Erie's Piermont, NY beginnings, but I was being parochial to NJ. In the very, very beginning, the Morris and Essex and the Erie joined the Pennsy predecessor at Marion Pl. in Jersey City with the DL using the PRR station and the Erie its own, but that is and was far beyond the scope of my question. And, right, the U&D did not operate into Weehauken merely making connections at Kingston. Putting CN into the LV mix means you've go to add the NKP to the DL&W and every other railroad in the country to the PRR mix, but who has time! It would be like fitting every little railroad that came into a larger railroad's fold or expansion plans (i.e., the Erie) over almost two centuries into this answer which would be at least an absurd activity.
Well, I hope you have time, Dave. It's your turn to ask.
P.S. It might be intersting to note that the Reading did indeed reach waterfront...Port Reading on Arthur Kill...as did the LV at Perth Amboy. But both of these were freight only operations.
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/7/1/7471.1168063200.jpg CNJ 1950
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/4/0/9540.1167883200.jpg CNJ 1951
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/5/4/3954.1237683435.jpg Erie 1950
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3/6/0/9360.1235948960.jpg Erie 1957
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/6/7/9967.1167944400.jpg B&O 1950
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/3/6/7936.1167199200.jpg RDG 1950
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/3/4/7234.1168437600.jpg LV 1950
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/0/2/8402.1113708420.jpg PRR 1956
I hope those contributors, editors, and commenters on this week's Trackside Photo's take note that these pictures are what urban railroad pictures are about!
And note the LV track on the north side of the CNJ station: it is where the commuter train terminated in the later years while the mainline trains went to Penn.
What a marvelous view in the first picture of the PRR Exchange Pl trainshed and how it dominated the waterfront at that point! The last pic is actually of CNJ terminal just after the NJTurnpike was built.
I've got several copies of the Port Authority maps from the 50's but nothing like this and the highlights Wan has done here. Thanks.
Dave, we are awaiting your quest of our knowledge or ignorence!
henry6 Dave, we are awaiting your quest of our knowledge or ignorence!
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