Sounds like Norristown PA (Reading, P&W, LVT). The P&W's station was just up the hill from the Reading's station, the earlier joint P&W/LVT station about a block away. LVT cars ran to 69th St, as did P&W, with a change to Rapid Transit there. Reading's cars had spring-loaded contact bars extending over the car ends to bus power, a method also used by GN on its Z- and Y- class electrics. Initially P&W ran onto street trackage, later cut back to the current terminal on el structure.
LVT stopped through running to 69th in 1949, though LCL freight continued to use the P&W until 1951. The double change, at Norristown and 69th, made the run too slow for many passengers. Some change to the Reading at Norristown, which gave a one-seat ride to Reading Terminal downtown, available today as SEPTA's Mayanunk/Norristown line.
Reading 11KV 25 hz AC, P&W 740VDC Third rail, LVT 600VDC trolly, used LVT third rail to 69th st. PRR also offered service to Norristown until the mid 1960s.
Two hints that should. really give it away
The suburban cars had a unique method for trainlining catenary power.
The interurban cars had 3rd-rail shoes as well as trolley poles.
Hints: Althbough tinterurban cars and the suburban mu cars both used axle-hung commutator motors, the technology and current were different.
Both used overhead wire.
The interuran had an extensive local streetcar system at one end of the line, plus one other interurban line, shorter and with lighter traffic.
At a moderate sized town, an interurban line paralleled an electrified railroad. The line's store-front station was across the street, and across the interurban's track. from the RR. station.
The electric suburban trains have and still provide a direct ride to a center city. The interurban required one change.
Several years before abandonment two changes were necessary, and many interurban passengers began changing between the interurban and the suburban railroad trains at this town.
Town and circumstances?
daveklepper Am I supposed to ask the next question?
Am I supposed to ask the next question?
with proper signs, on any IND service as well
Bump for IGN. If he doesn't want it, you know the drill.
I will answer some questions. The idea of the Bluebirds was commonality of parts beteween a large streetcar fleet and the rapid-transit fleet plus a single type of rapid-transit car that eventually would provide all service on both subway and elevate lines. And at a level of comfort that would exceed the existing equipment. The prototype non-mu single articulated multi-body car did provide off-peak service on the Fulton Street elevated and also paired with the Budd Little Zephyr on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. The train of four articulated cars, with the fifth as spare and rotated through maintenace, did run reliably on the 14th Street Canarsie line until 1954. It was removed from service when spare parts kept for both it and the PCC streetcar operation were disposed at the end of streetcar operation.
Until the Grant Avenue connection was built, so the IND "A" could operate to Lefferts Avenue, there was one operation, both before and after June 1940 Unification, that required steel subway cars that were light enough for original elevated structures, and that was the rush-hour-only 14th Street - Lefferts Avenue service, which used, rinning with Fulton Street Elevated trains, the original structure on Pitkin Avenue, replaced by the subway used by the A train underneath. The 6000's the five-section articulated multis, were the only cars used in this service except for the possibility of the Bluebird on occasion, but I never saw it on anyhing but 14th Steete - Canarsie. For many years I could be assured of enjoying a ride in it at the 4:55 pm departure from 8th Avenue, convenient for leaving school after the last class, for an evening of subway-train riding, possibly including the streetcar extension (first 4100- series deck-roof single-end cars, then 8000-series double-end Peter-Witts) to and from the Canarsie Shore.
Frankly, I still think it was the most beatiful and comfortable subway train I ever rode.
There was no reason the equipment could not be used in any BMT subway service, and it did lead diretly to the CTA's use of PCC rapid transit equipment, also the Cleveland blue cars.
The City's engineers had other ideas. The R-1 - R-9 cars, some 1700, used basically 1920's technology. Up through the last in 1941.
Overmod The other place was on the narig01 Overmod This covers the issue but doesn't answer either point in the question. Precisely why did BMT want these cars, and specifically where would they be used? And what was the reason, the actual reason, for 'scuttling' the order ... it was not just because NYC didn't want to pay the money. Didn't the BMT want to use the bluebirds on some of the elevated lines. The other reason was LaGuardia wanted to remove the Elevateds. I think the bluebirds were light enough to be used on the elevated lines, which were weight restricted. He's got both halves of it. Lightweight streetcar construction didn't make sense may places on the subway, but it did on the 'dual contracts' improved elevated structure that was inherently weight-restricted on the local tracks. As noted, it was the fact that the els were 'going away' completely that led to cancellation of the contract; it might have been interesting to see where else the Bluebirds might have been useful (the Myrtle Avenue line comes to mind) but any money actually spent for new transit equipment would be for heavier (and inherently perceived safer as a result) types of car -- note the Budd experiment in the '30s vs. the later stainless car experiment around the time of the '64 Fair.
The other place was on the
narig01 Overmod This covers the issue but doesn't answer either point in the question. Precisely why did BMT want these cars, and specifically where would they be used? And what was the reason, the actual reason, for 'scuttling' the order ... it was not just because NYC didn't want to pay the money. Didn't the BMT want to use the bluebirds on some of the elevated lines. The other reason was LaGuardia wanted to remove the Elevateds. I think the bluebirds were light enough to be used on the elevated lines, which were weight restricted.
Overmod This covers the issue but doesn't answer either point in the question. Precisely why did BMT want these cars, and specifically where would they be used? And what was the reason, the actual reason, for 'scuttling' the order ... it was not just because NYC didn't want to pay the money.
This covers the issue but doesn't answer either point in the question. Precisely why did BMT want these cars, and specifically where would they be used? And what was the reason, the actual reason, for 'scuttling' the order ... it was not just because NYC didn't want to pay the money.
Didn't the BMT want to use the bluebirds on some of the elevated lines. The other reason was LaGuardia wanted to remove the Elevateds. I think the bluebirds were light enough to be used on the elevated lines, which were weight restricted.
He's got both halves of it. Lightweight streetcar construction didn't make sense may places on the subway, but it did on the 'dual contracts' improved elevated structure that was inherently weight-restricted on the local tracks. As noted, it was the fact that the els were 'going away' completely that led to cancellation of the contract; it might have been interesting to see where else the Bluebirds might have been useful (the Myrtle Avenue line comes to mind) but any money actually spent for new transit equipment would be for heavier (and inherently perceived safer as a result) types of car -- note the Budd experiment in the '30s vs. the later stainless car experiment around the time of the '64 Fair.
FWIW Here is an advertisement for what was on order: https://s3.amazonaws.com/nycsubway.org/images/cars/advert_green_hornet.jpg
The advert mentions an order of 198 5 section multiple unit cars.
What might have been.
Rgds IGN
PS The original page were this was: https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/The_BMT_Fleet_(Elevated,_Subway,_Experimental)
BMT had Clark build a 3 compartment, 4 truck articulated PCC rapid transit car for a prototype to a 50 train order to replace 80 wood-bodied rapid transit cars. New York City's purchase of BMT in 1940 resulted in scuttling the order.
Chicago Rapid Transit's 1946 Pullman and St Louis Car articulated trainsets owed a lot to the Bluebirds. Drawings of the Chicago subways often included a Bluebird-like train.
daveklepperI'll give someone else a chance to answer Overmod's question. Rode that prototype more often than 1000.
It's a bit of a 'gimme' because rcdrye was so close with the other question, but it requires some specific knowledge of the railroad involved to answer.
First, keeping my promise, here are two photos of Brooklyn's 1000., first on a fantrip pictured in the Williamsburg area, and then in regular service on McDonald Avenue passing a South Brooklyn freight headed by a just-purchased war-surplus diesel.
Second, it was the rear-end that was replaced.
Third, this was the first transit vehicle with standee windows. Not intorduced to PCC cars until after WWII, but intoduced by GM Yellow Coach on their first diesel buses, first seen in local military base transportation in 1941.
Fourth, the car wqs sold to the BMT (B&QT) by Clark as a replacement for the original B&QT 1000, which was diverted to Pittsborgh as their 100. All this 1935.
I'l give someone else a chance to answ2er Overmod's question. Rode that prototype more often than 1000.
Like 1000, it was in regular service until 1954.
daveklepperOvermod. please go ahead and give the full story
What Mr. Klepper was after was the Clark PCC car, built 1936, which was the only one entirely framed in aluminum (although the preserved car 1000, at the Trolley Museum of New York has one end that was wreck-damaged replaced in steel). It has always been interesting to me that there was so little interest in aluminum construction for this kind of car; on the other hand, it's very fortunate it survived the aircraft scrap drives, something its even more historic relations like the early Union Pacific motor trains did not.
A very large order for a kind of 'follow-on' to this design was received, but only prototypes were built before the order was cancelled. What was the specific purpose of the lightweight trains, and why was the order cancelled when it was?
Overmod. please go ahead and give the full story (and do come up with the next question) and I will post the picture(s).
rcdrye, you still haven't quite gotten to the right answer. The carbody in question is very much 'in being' in a fairly well-known place.
Pretty sure the body and frame structure of the Auto-Tram prototypes were lost to scrap drives ... by then there was no perceived market for high-speed interurbans. On the other hand, a number of people have independently noted that there's no indication where the two Cadillac 452 motors went ... they might easily be knocking around in Battle Creek somewhere. Probably wouldn't put them in a railcar, though.
The trucks look like Clark B2 PCC trucks, with PCC style resilient wheels. Connect the V16 through a reasonable transmission and shaft to the Clark final drive and...
I haven't found any info on the body's disposition. Under normal circumstances it would have been cut up for scrap in WWII.
Here's another hint: Dave said it would not be difficult to restore. Find where the carbody of the vehicle in question now is.
rcdryethe Clark Autotram was built in Battle Creek, Michigan in 1932.
You got the hint, but not the answer! And judging by the answer you'll be dancing around the correct reply. Try again.
The AutoTram was badly misnamed. To me it always was not a 'streetcar' but an interurban -- a Crandic-style interurban to run 90+ between towns. Hard to believe there isn't a niche for that even today, but as with Speedrail the first little oopsie in a vehicle of that construction would be the end of its operating company...
It's less difficult to understand what they were trying to achieve with that streamlining when you've seen a Dornier Wal ... cutting-edge modern at that time.
A product of the company that supplied trucks and other parts for PCC cars, the Clark Autotram was built in Battle Creek, Michigan in 1932. Looking like a cross between a Mack Truck and a McKeen car (but with square windows), it had a Cadillac V-16. Clark is very much in business today.
Overmod, let us give it two more days. With nobody else answering by Thursday morning, you can give the full story, and I will try to post a picture.
daveklepperHint: The car is a streetcar
Further hint:carbody fabricated in aluminum. And the company is famous for forklifts. Also for this, at about the same time as the thing Dave mentions (although they could assuredly have figured out better streamlining!) with its Cadillac V16 power...
Further hint:carbody fabricated in aluminum. And the company is famous for forklifts.
Hint: The car is a streetcar
And were truly my favorite nightime train travel.
A company well-known for supplying equipment to rail-car builders, with a particular specialty, innovative when new, but now regarded as old hat and mostly being supplied for restored and repaired cars, construcyed one car. The design appears to have influenced transit bus design before it eventually influenced rail-car design. Another innovative feature had little influence.
I think the company is still in business, supplying mainly the truck market.
I think the body of the car still exists, and the material to restore it is practically off-the-shelf.
GN's 1947 Empire Builder had 4sec, 8 DRmt, 4DBR "Pass" cars, and 16 DRmt, 4 DBR "Glacier" cars, along with a 2DBR, DR "River" observation lounge. The 1951 upgrade brought 6 Rmt, 5 DBR, 3 Cpt (also "Pass") and 4 sec 8 DRmt, 6DBR, 1 Cpt "River" cars into the mix. The "River" observations were later rebuilt into "Coulee" cars for the Western Star, replaced by "Mountain" 2 Rmt obs lounges.
GN painted two complete sets of Empire Builder equipment in "Big Sky Blue" in 1967. CB&Q's move combining the Empire Builder and NP's North Coast Limited east of the Twin Cities in early 1968 slowed the project so only a few cars were repainted in 1968 and 1969.
The only major user of steam-ejector equipment besides ATSF was Southern. ATSF had a fairly even seasonal traffic distribution for Pullman-equipped trains and was not a major supplier of equipment for off-season use.
PRR's Creek series had duplex single rooms with crosswise beds.
More on the SAL and ACL trains. The year-round trains, East and West Coast Campions, the Silver Star, and the Silver Meteor. in general were kept purely stainless steel. But the winter-season-only trains usually had equipment not needed in the winter by western railroads, and were largely made-up of lightweight equipment from the NP, UP, SP, GN, CB&Q, CNStP&P, and SP&S, without any repainting. Did not see AT&SF equipment on these trains. I suspect because shop crews were unfamliar with sream-ejector AC. PRR Tucscan red equipment also was used on these trains. I think at one time Creek duplex-roomette cars on the Florida Special.
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