Fuller Road Back to the business at hand. The Golden State and the Exposition Flyer.
I presume this is because until some time during the operation of the CZ, the WP used the SP Oakland Mole ferry terminal and had to use AT&SF trackage to access the SP?
Anyone come up with answers to the NYC-PRR question? I don't claim to know all the answers, just two, and there may be more.
With the lack of response equal to a shout, I will give one away: NY-Chicago via the C&O. Penn Station NY to Central Station Chicago via the Big Four. Anyone know the other one I know? Amd amy others?
I was surprised by the lack of response, but those with Official Guides should know more than i do. In addition to the on and off NY - Chicago via C&O sleeper, I believe there was on occasion one from Lake Placid to Pittsburgh and one from Rochester to Pittsburgh. If I am incorrect then whoever gives the correction should ask the next question. Otherwise I will.
daveklepperI believe there was on occasion one from Lake Placid to Pittsburgh and one from Rochester to Pittsburgh
Johnny
Check the guides of the 30's if you can. Possibly I should have said Harrisburg or Philadelphia and not Pittsburgh.
And when did the WP move out of the SP's Oakland Mole? To essentially load and unload like a streetcar on a street?
daveklepperCheck the guides of the 30's if you can. Possibly I should have said Harrisburg or Philadelphia and not Pittsburgh.
I believe the last wooden equipment used in Grand central terminal were the baggage carts for the checked bags between the baggage room and the trains.
Al - in - Stockton
Aw come on Al, you know I meant steel wheeled vehicles running on tracks in regular trains! But having said that, you aren't way off base. And the other question should also be easy to answer.
I visited Canadaigua several times, having helped with the design of the summer home for the Rochester Philharmonic there, "The Canandaigua Performing Arts Center" or "The Finger Lakes Performing Arts Center," (not sure which was finally chosen). In was (is?) pronounced CANNONDAYGWA. Some time after passenger service ceased. A RPO administrator or one of the architects, Sandler or Russo, would pick me up at either the airport or the Amtrak station in Rochester. Usually the latter.
A hint on the GCT question. The wood equipment was replaced after running in trains with postwar equipment and was replaced entirely by second-hand steel equipment from other railroads, much as most of the wood Boston and Maine open platform coaches were being replaced by second hand steel equipment before the massive move to RDC's. But in this case some of the postwar steel equipment was postwar (Postwar = post WWII)
A hint on the NYC wood equpment. East of Buffalo. Yes, definitely east of Buffalo.
The last wood passenger cars in New York Central Passenger service were wood vestibulted cars with steel underframes used in Wst Shore Weehawken - Haverstraw commuter service to the end of WWII and a few years more, until steel equipment released by new lightweight equpment took over this service. Wood cars from the New York Ontarior and Western continued to use these tracks for a few more years afterward. The last wood rolling stock into Grand Central were the 60-foot single-door wood baggage cars of the NYNH&H, which were replaced by second had equipment in 1950.
So I will ask another question What classic railroad commuter equipment had both diaphragms and pantograph gates on the ends of all cars and also lacked (not quite completly) a feature of all other North American railroad commuter equipment of the period? Naming the commuter operaton, the railroad, is suffficient, but you can also give the reason(s).
daveklepperCan you check if there was also a summertime car to Lake Placid?
Dave, I'm sorry to be so long in respoding to your question. Looking at the maps of the NYC and PRR, I was inclined to say ,"No," for it seemed that there would be much east-west backtracking. A few minutes ago, I thought to check in Peter T. Maiken's Night Trains--and, on page 43, service Philadelphia-Lake Placid, via PRR, is mentioned. There is no discussion of the routing, but I posit that the car was interchanged at Newark, N. Y. going from Philadelphia by way of Harrisburg and Williamsport up to Newark (on PRR's Sodus Point line & NYC's main line) and thence to Utica and north on the Adirondack Divison. By 1950, the line to Sodus Point was freight only, In January of 1930, there was a motor train that connected, in Stanley, with the day train between Canandaigua and Williamsport. The interchange may have been at Rochester, though. You are vindicated.
In June, 1930, there was a through car Rochester-Washington by way of Canandaigua.
daveklepperI visited Canadaigua several times, having helped with the design of the summer home for the Rochester Philharmonic there, "The Canandaigua Performing Arts Center" or "The Finger Lakes Performing Arts Center," (not sure which was finally chosen). In was (is?) pronounced CANNONDAYGWA
Thanks! Please answer the question! Should be easy as pie. The PRR Owl-faced MP-54 mu's and and Lackawana dc classics had neigther diaphragms nor pantograph gates. All NYC subway cars have pantograph gates but no diaphragms. Prehaps I should have restricted the question to electric mu equipment.
Hint: The trains that were equipped with both diaphraghms and pantograph gates ran as married pairs, one trailer with one motor car. and atl least some of the trailers were in steam service before electrification although designed for the electrification.
I should have figured this one out since I used to see them regularly when I caught the South Shore at 115th Street for my ride home from high school. The trains were the original equipment of the Illinois Central suburban service, electrified in 1926. As an aside, the cars were also equipped with roll signs to indicate destination.
You were the first so ask the next queston.
And the almost missing item were steps. No steps or traps except on the inner end of the trailer car. No steps on the motor car and only one pair on the trailer. All Metra Electric stations are high platform stations.
I too was thinking of the MU "Wickerliners" of the IC which I rode many times but I ruled them out when you said some of the trailers were used in steam service prior ro electrification. I don't see how that was possible since their couplers and draft gear were incompatible with the earlier steam drawn cars, they had no air brake hoses, and of course lacked steam heating coils.
Mark
The circa 1949 article in TRAINS stated that some of the trailer cars had been used in steam service (with the Forny el-type locomotives) before electriciation. IC MU cars did have regular air brakes along with electric control airbrakes and could be used outside of electrification as regular coaches. If they don't have airhoses in the photographs, it is because they received special mu couplers and the air line was contained in the rapid-transit-type coupler. (Westinghouse, Tomlinson, Ohio Brass, all had integral air-hose connections with rubber grommets on the coupler face.) Or possibliy an adapter coupler was used, and this was in fact used when these mu cars were used behind steam in special moves. This was also true of most New York City subway cars, for example. I rode D-type subway cars (fan-trip) pulled by a South Brooklyn steeple cap freight motor, and an adapter coupler took care of the air-hose connection from the locomotive. But air hoses were typical of most mu's of the period, including the Pennsy and LIRR MP-54's, the NYC, the New Haven, the South Shore, North Shore (not sure about the Electroliners, but all other mu cars definitely and obviously not their local streetcars), CA&E (all mu cars), Lackawanna, Laural Line, Warterloo Ceder Fall and Northern, Illinois Terminal (again not sure about the post-war streamliners and definitely not the ten double-end PCC's in Granit City serice.) The IC suburban engines already had generators for head-end power and the old open platform coaches had been converted to electric lighting by use of head-end power and not axle generators. This was typical for most Chicago steam suburban operations, and the IC trailer cars obviously initially had their lighting circuits arranged to accept that head-end power. I assume the trail cars were tried out in suburban service behind steam in the later spring, summer, and early autumn when no heating was required, since I doubt the steam locomoties had sufficient head-end power for the heating grids. But maybe a few of the Forney suburban engines were equipped with larger head-end power generators. I hope this answers your question, and others with more specific information can comment. The reason most suburban operators used head-end power for lighting from the start of electric lighting is that in suburban service operation at low speed and dwell time at stations means batteries don't get charged enough by axle-driven generators.
Meanwhile, Paul, I look forward to the next question.
PS: I do believe they were used in solid trains when tried out behind steam, and I recall seing one picture of such a train. They would not have been mixed with the old wood cars, Mark, and you are corect on that point.
I'll continue with this theme. The IC suburban electricification included a limited freight electrification. How many locomotives were purchased for freight service and what was their disposition?
My guess is four with two sold to the South Shore, the other two? I think one of the CN's many interurban subsidiaries, but which one? London and Port Stanley? Niagra St. Catherins and Toronto?
daveklepper My guess is four with two sold to the South Shore, the other two? I think one of the CN's many interurban subsidiaries, but which one? London and Port Stanley? Niagra St. Catherins and Toronto?
The amount is correct but the dispositions aren't quite right.
I know the South Shore got two and got rhyming nicknames, Ike and Mike or something like that. Two go to the New York Central? Replacing their old S-Motors some place in the NY area, or to the Niagra Junction? (An NYC subvisidiary)
daveklepper I know the South Shore got two and got rhyming nicknames, Ike and Mike or something like that. Two go to the New York Central? Replacing their old S-Motors some place in the NY area, or to the Niagra Junction? (An NYC subvisidiary)
South Shore's two AC boxcabs were sold to St. Clair Tunnel Co. when South Shore converted to DC in 1926. Mike & Ike were two light steeplecabs purchased new by South Shore that went to Niagara Junction. Back to the original question on the disposition of IC's electric locomotives.
I still say at least two went to the South Shore, but maybe all four?
We have a winner!! All four became surplus when IC dieselized its downtown yard trackage. South Shore needed additional power for the wartime traffic surge and acquired all four of them in 1941 as CSS 900-903 by way of Iron & Steel Products, an equipment dealer and scrapper located in Hegewisch next to Pressed Steel Car Company (NOT the same location as Hyman Michaels/Chrome Crankshaft).
The DL&W and the Milwaukee were the only other two USA electrifications that could have used them without some major modifications. They were good for 1500V dc or could be rewired from parallel motor connections to series for 3000V DC. The DL&W at the time was only a suburban passenger electrification, although I understand in the distant past there was some electric switching of freight cars at Hoboken. The Milwaukee was not interested.
My questions: There is a religous/national symbol, not North American with a two-syllable name with two components, each one syllable, and it is the symbol of a "fallen flag" railroad. It was a adopted by that railroad because of a particular product that demanded passenger train speeds over the railroad. The product is in less demand today, but is still produced.
1. What is the symbol and what are the names of its two components and what is its overall shape?
2. Name of the railroad. Subsequent history.
3. Name of the product.
4. What produces the product?
5. What special cars are required for its transport?
6. What products have in large mearsure replaced it today?
7. How is it usually shipped today?
8. During the streamliner era, what rolling stock and in which trains would one find the symbol etched in glass?
9. During most but not all of the streamliner era, two of the named trains were handled in a manner not typical of most USA and Canadian streamliners, and what was untypical of the way they were handled for a portion of their run?
Please give someone a chance to get a 100% score before coming up with partial answers.
Dave,
I believe your new question refers to the Northern Pacific and if so answers are as follows:
1. The NP's logo was a monad symbol. I would describe it as a backward and slightly slanted "S" inside a circle. The area to the left of the "S" was red and that to its right was black.
2. Northern Pacific Railway
3. Raw silk
4. Silk worms
5. Baggage cars
6. Synthetic fabrics (nylon, rayon, orlon, etc.)
7. Air transport
8. North Coast Limited and Mainstreeter
9. Not sure but I believe there was a lengthy reverse move. Possibly involved only the Portland sllepers and coaches.
To add to Mark's answers:
1. The Monad was composed of the Chinese symbols, Yin and Yang, which are opposite and complementary forces.
2. The NP became a part of the Burlington Northern which, in turn, became a part of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe.
9. The Portland cars to/from the GN had a reverse movement at Pasco; the Portland cars to/from the NP did not. There was a reverse move for both GN & NP trains in St. Paul.
Mark did very well on answering this question, even though he was up about 3 a. m. MST (it reached my email at 3:27 a. m.); I do not think that anybody can do better. I get to my computer after reading the morning paper and eating breakfast (except on Sunday, when I eat lunch and work the crossword puzzles in the paper first).
The only deviations from having all correct answers by combining the two preceding entries is the special movement and names Wing for the red area and Wang for the black. (Or is it visa versa?) Lots of trains had back-up movements, but combining two competing trains into one is pretty rare, and the Burlington did this with the North Coast Limited and the Empire Builder between Chicago and St. Paul, and with the Mainstreeter and the Western Star as well. The SP&S did similarly with the Portland sections between Pasco and Portland. The other case of this type of operaton was south of Jacksonville on the the FEC to Miami and the ACL to Tampa and St. Pete would combine competing heavyweight trains from Chicago.
Mark's question?
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