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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 22, 2022 8:43 AM

Nope.  Both of the railroads involve in the Pullman line I'm looking for operated their own sleepers at various times.  It won't help much, but one end of the run was Chicago.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, February 24, 2022 8:00 AM

daveklepper

The SOO, Chicago - Salt Saint Marie, with the Milwaukee.

 

Wrong thread, but I'll take it.  Milwaukee and Soo Line ran a Chicago-Sault Ste. Marie Pullman (usually an 8 sec, 2 cpt, 1DR) via Pembine Wisconsin until the late fifties using the Copper Country Limited and Soo's nameless 7 and 8 (that once carried the name Atlantic Limited).  In later years it was every other day. 

In addition to this one "line" Soo Line had a contract with Pullman that allowed for borrowing cars as needed, but operated their own sleeping cars, with CP cars on the western routes, especially in the summer.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, February 24, 2022 8:30 AM

Repeating my answer from the wrong thread:

The SOO, Chicago - Sault Saint Marie, with the Milwaukee.

During WWII, one railroad widely used parlor cars to replace sleepers on overnight trains to cater to 1st-Class opassengers after the ODT banned use of sleepers on runs less than 250 miles.  Sleepers were also used for coach psassengers when certain long-distnce all-coach streamliners were turned short-of-destination, when lateness made  this essential to attempt to keep something approaching the schedule, different railroad, the sleepers between their overnight runs were available  and were used for the make-up shuttles.  And involving the first a railroad, a regular daytime trasin regularly used the Pullman sleepers as parlors as the daytime return nmovement of an overnight train. 

All the railroads involved, end-points, and trains, all during WWII.

;

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 27, 2022 9:46 AM

Hints:   In the first example, most use was between two endpoints was on one round-trip train, on one railroad,  The second involved tne  most advertized train or trains of three railkroads, with common use of one double-track bridge, wich was a point of congestion and delay.  And the Pullman shuttles were on the connecting railroad used by all three.  The third involved two railroads.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, February 28, 2022 4:58 AM
Hint for the second example:  The day train took a shortcut, which the night train served during the night.  Although all legs of this triangle, a relatively small portion of the overall round-trip, was owned by one railroad, today I think there are three different owners!   Both the night train and the day train could be resurrected today, but the tracks of at least four railroads would be involved.
And sleepers on the night train also were handled by a third railroad, but. As fas I know. Did not run on the return day train.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, February 28, 2022 5:01 AM
Hint for the second example:  The day train took a shortcut, which the night train served during the night.  Although all legs of this triangle, a relatively small portion of the overall round-trip, was owned by one railroad, today I think there are three different owners!   Both the night train and the day train could be resurrected today, but the tracks of at least four railroads would be involved.
And sleepers on the night train also were handled by a third railroad, but, as fas I know, did not run on the return day train.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 7, 2022 1:16 PM

1.   One major city was involved with all trains for all t5hree examplws of Pullman sleepers in day service in WWII.

2.  One railroad was involved in both the first and third examples, with another railroad added in the third example.

3.  Another railroad, where the sleepers were drawn from its large yared serving the common city, was involved with three other rairoads in the second example, and there was always an engine change between its power and any train of the three other railr0ads, including their streamliners.  Two of those, however, had trains forwarded over the tracks of a fourth to reach the engine-change-point city.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 11, 2022 8:30 AM

More hints.  Amtrak runs the first service, before the Pandemic restored sleeper service, but a different station in the major city. not sure about any current sleeper service, and the run is about twice as long, with the major city the midpoint.

All three routes in the second example still see through service, with use of the same double-track bridge and the same necessary engine-change point.  There are post-WWII changes to portions of two of the three.

Passenger service for the day train in the third example ended shortly after WWII.  The overnight ended in the 1960s.   Amtrak has studied restoration, but upgrading of some  freight-only tracks would be necessary, and Amtrak thinks the market is adequately served by two disconnected major existing Amtrak services and the less-than-ten-minutes five-stop rapid-transit ride connecting them  

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:15 PM

1. NYNH&H Boston-New York (Grand Central).  Today's service runs via Penn Station. 

2. PRR, for the Champion and Silver Meteor.  Two-track bridge was (and is) the "Long Bridge" between Washington and Alexandria.  Not only LOTS of passenger trains but also B&O  and PRR frights to Pot Yard.

3. Not as sure about the third but I'm thinking NYNH&H/B&A through service between New York and Boston via Springfield MA.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 13, 2022 5:26 AM

Got the first one 100%  Care  to name the  train?  It had a name, all 1st-Class, and remained so into the lightweight era, but then was combined  with its coach compnion' keeping the all sleeper's name.  It continued to the PC - NYNH&H merger, 1970.

Second, you got two of the three.  Do you forget which other RR using that bridge had a diesel-hauled (when not on PRR)  all-coach streamliner during WWII? 

The emergency turn-back  point was usually Philadelphia.  At the worst, it would be Washington, DC itself.

The Inland Route did not have an overnight NY - Boston train with end-to-end 1st-class accomodations during WWII.   However, both the day and night trains on the correct answer's route did serve an important city served by the Inland Route that was not served by the Shore Line Route.   Most towns on the correct answers  roye are served by the combination of two Amtrak services connected by rapid transit, but not the specific important city mentioned above.

  

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 13, 2022 10:27 AM

The Inland Route never involved a  ten-minute rapid-transit ride between the two segments.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 13, 2022 1:13 PM

1. The two Boston-New York sleeper trains in 1948 were the Owl and the Narragansett (The Federal was considered a Washington train).  I'm going to have to punt here.

2.  Forgot the Southern Railway's Southerner, which started as an all-coach streamliner.

3. Oof.  Those are trains I see from time to time. The East Wind and the State of Maine New York-Portland/Bangor.  Served today via the T's Orange Line between Back Bay (BBY) and North Station (BON) between NEC trains and the Down Easter.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 13, 2022 11:26 PM

You got it and should ask the next question.  The Owl was the all-sleeper train and after the ODT order, was all parlor until the ODT ban was removed.   The Naragansett lost its sleeper and  remained all coach during the period when I was a undergrad student at MIT. '49-'53, had on occasion to travel overnight, and cold not afford the sleeper fare.   The Naragansett was discontined around 1965, and coaches were added to the Owl.   The Owl was open for occpancy about 10pm,  but left Boston around 1:30 or  2AM, arriving at GCT around 7AM.  It left GCT around  10:30 PM, got to Boston around 4AM, but passengers could wait to 7AM or 7:30AM before detraining.

As far as I know, the East Wind did not operate during WWII.  The train in mind  was the Starte of Maine, and the return WWII daytime move was simply "The Day Express."  It took the New London (Groton) - Worcester shortcut via the Thames River Line, instead of the SoM's route via Providence and what is now the  Providence and Worcester.  In the last year of operation, the State of Maine was combined with the Owl between GCT and Providence, but listed separately in the timetable.  As  a  regular Owl commuter, nearly every week, I then welcomed the Pullman buffet and orange juice, bagel, cream cheese, and coffee going into GCT.  

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 14, 2022 6:47 AM

The State of Maine and other Maine-bound trains moved back and forth between the New London & Worcester and Providence and Worcester routes several times over the years.  The route via Providence was only a couple of miles longer but had much better track.

The NL&W and the P&W were separate companies leased by New Haven in the monopoly years. At least an RDC a day survived on each until the PC merger, and on the P&W until April 30, 1971.  P&W broke the lease with NH successor Penn Central in 1973.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 14, 2022 12:19 PM

From 1938, at age 6-1/2, or earlier, throgh 1964, The State of Maine always ran via Providence.  There was additional revenue to be had with both passengers and head-end bsiness.  I rode it many times dring that period.

For a time, a scheduled across-the-platform transfer was available at New Haven between The State of Maine and the Montrealer/Washingtonian.  I'm not aware of any sleeper transfer, but there may have been.  Of course before WWII the East Wind provided direct Washington, DC, - Maine service.  I do not know if it "detoured" via Providence.  The WWII Day Express always took the direct route.

Looking forward to RC's question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:49 AM

For a train on one of its most scenic routes, this railroad ordered coaches with 36" x 54" windows.  Dome cars appeared on the train later.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 17, 2022 4:56 AM

Shasta Daylight, Southern Pacific, and full-length dome-lounges were added, not dome-cloaches.

Oakland, CA -  Portland, OR

Rode it

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, March 17, 2022 6:43 PM

SP's Shasta Daylight coaches were delivered in a modified Daylight scheme with a wider window band.  Built of flat panel stainless steel, they got SP's "Tomato Can" paint in the 1960s - basically the Sunset Limited paint on a flat sided car.  SP's Sacramento shops rebuilt seven prewar lounge cars into 3/4 length domes with a portion of the floor under the dome at normal floor height.  Both the big windowed coaches and the dome lounges were passed up in Amtrak's initial purchase of cars from SP.   All but one of the domes and most of the coaches ended up in Amtrak ownership in 1973 or 1974 after many trips under lease on Amtrak trains, including the Coast Starlight.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 18, 2022 9:43 AM

And can you describe their susequent hidtory?  Any of the domes surviving today?  Or the coaches?

My question:  0-4-4T locomotives were built both as Fairlies and as Forneys.  Externally not much different.  Describe the major differences and some uses.   As much information about both types that you can rovide.  

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 18, 2022 11:22 AM

SP Dome cars

3600 (San Joaquin Daylight) retired 1970 sold for restaurant project, scrapped 1973

3601 (Overland) sold Amtrak 9370 1972, wrecked 1977 scrapped 1988

3602 (Overland) sold Amtrak 9371 1972 retired 1982 moved around, may still exist

3603 (Overland) sold Amtrak 9372 1972 non-railroad use rebuilt 2001 for Panama RR "Chagres" in KCS "Southern Belle paint

3604 (S.J. Daylight) sold Amtrak 9373 1972 retired 1981. Was on Minnesota Dinner train may still exist as stationary restaurant.

3605 (Shasta Daylight) sold Amtrak 9374 1972 retired 1981.  Some excursion service mainly in Mexico in 1990s and early 2000s.  Stored in Colorado until 2017, now Canadian Pacific Heriage Fleet car 3605 "Selkirk"

3606 (Shasta Daylight) retired 1971 sold for non-railroad use in Rocklin CA.

The two Shasta Daylight cars had a wider orange window band to match the big window coaches. All of the cars were built with fluted sides, got smooth sides between 1966 and 1970.  All were either painted silver or had stainless steel panels installed between 1958 and 1960 with the red letterboard and the winged ball number block.  The Overland cars later served on the City of SF.  The Coast Daylight got the former "Shasta" domes, at least in the summer months, after the Shasta was discontinued.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 19, 2022 2:12 PM

Thanks.  Really happy about "Selkirk!"  Look forward gto the rest of your answer.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 19, 2022 6:20 PM

Forneys are fixed-frame, with the drivers carried in the frame.  Strictly speaking the only wheel arrangement on a true Forney is 0-4-4T.  Common on elevated lines, Forneys were also found as street railway "dummies" fitted with housings to resemble horsecars.  Originally intended to run tank first, they were more commonly run in both directions.

The Fairlie type was invented by William Mason.  There are several variations of Fairlies, but all of them involve truck-like arrangements.   The Mason Bogey is a variation on the Fairlie idea, but with a single "power truck" where the drivers would normally appear on a frame-type engine.  Both Forney and Fairlie designs are known for the ability to take tight curves, and many were set up to allow operation in both directions.  Mason's Bogey design involved a steam passage through a pipe in the center bearing, Walschaerts valve gear, and swing links to center the Bogey on straight track.  While the simpler Fairlie designs were used on several narrow gauge lines in the UK, the Mason bogeys had enough mechanical quirks to be set aside early in their careers.  An 1873 Mason Bogey still exists at the Henry Ford Museum.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 19, 2022 10:49 PM

Thanks.  The IC suburban operation and the two LIRR operations thru with Brooklyn Rapid Transit (one Atlantic Avenue to Sands Street and one via the Broadway (Brooklyn) Elevated to the Broadwsy - Delancy Street Ferry, were also uses of 0-4-4T Forneys.  Possibly other "real" rsilroads azlso did?

RC:  Next qestion, and what happened to the Shastas Daylight's coaches? 

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:28 PM

None of the Shasta Daylight big-window coaches were part of the initial Amtrak purchase but all of them ended up there first by lease and then purchase. Some of the Shasta Daylight coaches ended up on tourist operations.  I don't know of any active at this point, but at least one was repainted in Daylight paint and ended up at the Orange Empire Railway Museum after some use following GS-4 4449.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 20, 2022 1:34 PM

Two eastern railroads had to deal with clearance problems that prevented the use of dome cars, but nonetheless wanted to offer something close, at least for first class passengers on some of their very best trains.  Both railroads opted for 5 Double Bedroom lounge cars, but with different solutions for visibility.  Name the railroads and describe the cars.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Sunday, March 20, 2022 5:13 PM

Seaboard's three "Sun Lounges" with windows on the roof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Lounge_(railcar)

New York Central's two round-end observation cars for the 1948 20th Century Limited, "Hickory Creek" and "Sandy Creek".  The "Lookout Lounge" floor was raised and this section had larger windows. 

https://www.urhs.org/hickorycreek

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 21, 2022 6:52 AM

Good work!.  NYC also bought the three "Brook" series observations (Wingate Brook, Singing Brook, and Sunrise Brook) from Budd for the Southwestern Limited, which also had the Lookout Lounge features.  Hickory Creek is still in use in private ownership, and Wingate Brook is listed as for sale.  Wingate Brook and Hickory Creek brought up the rear of the last two 20th Century Limiteds in 1967.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 21, 2022 12:38 PM

Does the name Joseph Whiteford mean anythying to any readers?

Until he passed on, he was one of the major owners of Boston's Aeolian Skinner Orgtan (pipe) Company.  For a considerable period, they were held in esteem as one of the best, if not the best, of North American organ builkders.  The last time I saw him we had inspected a Manhattan church, and I accompanied him to the platform at Penn Station, where he boarded the Silver Meteor or the Silver Star to Florida. He handed his carry-on bag to the porter at the vestibule of the Pullman adjacent to the Sun Lounge, went directly to the lounge, and ordered a drink for himself.  I think the last thing I said to him was "Joe, you now have, for a time, the very best playpen in the world."  I was wrong, of course.  Silver Planet's dome on the Rio Grasnde Zephyr -and it or its sisters on thec CZ  before it were even better.  

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, April 2, 2022 7:57 PM

waiting for SDdude's question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2022 10:02 AM

Nu?

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