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Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 7, 2021 3:55 AM

Burch may be correct regarding catenary construction.  I'm certain regarding placing in revenue service.  This is different.  Engine change facilities, etc.

You can Google to get the specific information and access to technical papers.

I think rc is the winner.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, October 7, 2021 9:14 AM

Something I find disturbing, perhaps ominous, is that Burch is no longer available to read via Google Books -- it was when I first tried to put this up as a question.  I had to go in using the Internet Archive copy from the NYPL to reconfirm his date for the electrification.

Something interesting would be to verify the figures for actual in-service dates that the first 82 miles were put in service, and then the expansion.  In establishing priority we should use contemporary credible data; are there references that establish specific events in 1905?  (I'd think that you and rc would be at the top of the list of people who would know...)

No question that it's rc's question now.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 8, 2021 7:31 AM

I already posted the exact date for the first revenue operation from GCT to New Rochelle.   The history is avialable on the IEEE website, but I forget how to navigate to it.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 8, 2021 10:08 AM

Dave got it right, so it's his question.  I just supplied the mileage number 

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 8, 2021 4:25 PM

Even if the 82 miles didn't see trains until 1905 it would still be two full years earlier, in an era where that was an eternity in rapid development of high-voltage single-phase AC.

In any case rc's was the answer I was expecting.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 9, 2021 2:29 PM

rc, your answer is  correct, and it is now your question.  The interurban you mentiomed did start revenue service with AC before the NYNH&H.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, October 10, 2021 12:41 PM

Continuing with the 3300 volt theme, the longest line of this interurban system opened with a 3300 VAC electrification in 1907 , was re-electrified with 1200 VDC in 1909, and converted to 600VDC (with some additional substations) in 1924. Abandonment in stages lost the former 3300 volt sections by 1940.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 11, 2021 3:13 AM

Indiana Railroad, the line west to Terre Haut

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 11, 2021 7:19 AM

IRR didn't have any AC stretches (That would have been THI&E in those days, anyway).  Their only 1200V line was the Interstate Public Service line to louisville.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 11, 2021 2:43 PM

When did this system exit the interurban electric railway passwbger business?  Did locak streetcar and/or diesel freight continue afterward?  If so, when did these sevices end, or is either still existing?   

You indicated ythat line that had the AC power waws gone by 1940, but this implies that other services continues.  Thus my qtions.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 11, 2021 3:42 PM

The last remaining piece of the line was abandoned in 1951.  Service on the former AC section lasted until around 1940.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 17, 2021 5:04 AM

1951, abandoned for passenger service only?  has that line been restored as a modern light-rail line? When did streetcar sevice in the interurban's most important city end?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, October 17, 2021 1:58 PM

1951 that line was totally abandoned.  Streetcar service ended in the pricipal city in 1958. There is a recently opened streetcar system there now, though not necessarily on the same streets.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 18, 2021 8:30 AM

Thanks:  The Milwaukee Electric Railway and Light Co.   Last two lines operated by Speedrail.  Don't know which line opened with AC.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, October 18, 2021 1:54 PM

daveklepper
Don't know which line opened with AC.

Part of the line to Watertown, commencing at Waukesha Beach.  End of July 1908 was when service began.

As I recall the 3300V was a 10x stepdown from 33kV, the power was converted to 550VDC on the cars, and they could easily get over 60mph out of a 53' car... in 1908... with that setup.

Abolition you TMER&L mavens can deduce from the Kuhlman cars being delivered with the 3300V equipment but the AC having been discontinued when the order arrived...

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, October 18, 2021 6:09 PM

The 1100 series cars delivered for the Watertown line lasted until after WWII (with a massive rebuilding).  The TMER&L was one of the few lines that used poles with an AC electrification, however short-lived it was.  The removal of the 1200V equipment more ore less coincided with the cars' rebuilding.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 19, 2021 2:51 AM

New York City had three actual rail abandonments during WWII, all three involving some removal of electrified trackage, all three ihnvolving transfer priveleges of on kind or another, and some alternate rail service on location or nearby.  Give as much detail on the three as you can

Also during WWII, New York City had two rail openings, both involving restoration of earlier abandoned trackage, one a partial restoration and permanent, the other a full restoration,  but abasndoned again about four years after the War's end.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, October 19, 2021 5:58 PM

Before rcdrye blows this away: two of them involve first the removal of the 9th Avenue El south of 155th and the Second Avenue north of 59th -- both made obsolescent by expanding subway service with NYC taking everything over -- and the removal of the whole of the 9th and 2nd by war's end.  Personally I always thought a part of this was the scrap value, a kind of payback for that 'nipponized bit of the old sixth avenue el' that finally told him in the cummings poem...

Bet a hat some of the wartime construction was rail to new or busier piers near Bay Ridge, or connecting track to reach 'that part of the world' more easily or more quickly... outbound and inbound...

A better detail: not all of those els got scrapped by war's end.  What part survived, why was it retained and not bus-converted, and what led to its ultimate demise?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 21, 2021 7:27 AM

Both structures were remved before 7 December 1941.  I should have made it clear during the USA's militarially active role in winning the war.  You're close on one, though.

Two involved bridges.  Not necessarily the same two, two also involved streetcar line changes.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Wednesday, December 8, 2021 12:11 PM

Bumping this up. Can we get additional clues or even a different question?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 9, 2021 4:14 AM

Most of the 155th Street & 8th Avenue Elevated Station, the "Putnam Bridge," used until the Dual-Contracts implimentation, with the extension of the Ninth (also Sixth during rush-hours) Elevated trains to  the Jerome Avenue line in The Bronx (No. 4 Subway trains today), by NYCentral Putnam Divission to reach the 155th Street Elevated Station, and two restricted-clearance single-track tunnels, and the elevated structure on 162nd Street in The Bronx connecting to the Jerome Avenue sgtructure, with the actual switches just south of 167th Street Station, survived as the "Polo Gronds Shuttle."  Stations were 167th and Jerome, shared with what is now the "4." Jerome-Anderson Avenue, partly in the tunnels on their east side, Sedgewick Avenue, with the westbound-southbound platform serving also as the cocourse for the new Sedgewick Avenue southern terminal for Putnam Divisdion trains, and 155th St. and 8th Avenue as the southern and  western terminal.  Free paper transfers were exchanged the with CC subway trains and the D at times they did not run express in the Bronx.

The purpose of this shuttle was primarily to connect with Putnam Divisdion trains, and  secondarily to provide a more convenient way for Jerome Svenue trasnsit users to reach the Polo Grounds than the stairways and paper trasnsfers at 161st Street, River Avenue, Yankee Stadium.

It was also useful for residents near the Jerom-Anderson station.

It was discontinued, the tunnels sealed, and the 162 Street  elevated structure and Putnam Bridge removed after Putnam Division passenger service ended and the Polo Grounds closed as a National League Stadium for the New York Giants  baseball team.

Attached a photo with a two-car composite shuttle trainm showing its relationship to the Lexington Avenue - Jerome Avenue subway line, now the "4." located on River Street south of 167th Street Station:

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 9, 2021 4:18 AM

I ought to add that the first service on the Jerome Avenue elevated structure was by 6th and 9th Avenue elevated trains.  Thhe Lexington Avenue subway trains, now thw "4," came a few hyears later.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 9, 2021 8:48 AM

In the   of interest of accuracy:  In June 1940, when the 9th Avenue Elevated was discontinued below 155th Street and oth Avenue, the only subway train stopping at 155th Street and 8th Avenue was the CC, full-time.  The D was inaugurated in 1942, with the opening of the 6th Avenue subway, with the CC rush-hours only, asnd the D local north of 145th Street except rush hours in the direction of heavy travel.

Also, for a very short time, the Shuttle ran north of 167th Street to Burnside Avenue.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 9, 2021 9:03 AM

A wider-angle view, with both the Shuttle and a Lex. Ave. Express in the picture:

And an arial view. showing thr Putnam Bridge, as well as the McCoombs Dasm Bridge that once hosted two Bronx streetcar lines:

The large apartment-building complex, north of the Polo Grounds Stadium, was the  site of the 9th and 6th Avenue Elevateds' main yard.  It existed through WWII and was used to store elevated  cars wating to be scrapped or sold.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, December 19, 2021 3:57 AM

I'll assu me the answer was correct and ask the next question:

What wsas unique about the two single track tunnels between the Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson stations that made them the only two-of-a-kindf in all of N. America?

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, December 19, 2021 3:01 PM

Aren't those the ones that were elevated-railroad tunnels before they were subway tunnels?

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 20, 2021 3:55 AM

Please reread my complete answer, look at the history, and re-phrase your reply.  I noted that the tunnels exist, but are sealed.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 20, 2021 5:43 AM

You might be confused by the two-car "Polo Grounds Shuttle" looking like a two-car subway train, and my statement that Jerome Avenue service was first provided by 9th and 6th Avenue elevated trains before the lexington avenue subway was opened.   The tunnels were used be those eklevated trains and then by the Shuttle.  The shuttle equipment was equipment that had operasted in the original subway, but was transferred to Third Avenue and Second Avenue rush-our express trains, as soon as enough steel cars were available, were then equipped with gravity-type 3rd-rail shoes, and could no longer operate in sucway service.  In June, 1940, a small group, twelve, were transferred, via South Ferry and the Ninth Avenue Elevated, to the  yard  north bof the Polo Grounds folr the Shuttle, and then to the Jerome - Woodlawn yard when the yard north of the Polo Grouns closed for apartment house development.  As long as the Shuttle ran the elevated-type 3rd Rail was maintained, along with thw subway type, on Jerome Avemue. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, December 21, 2021 11:32 AM

Overmod, you should be able to edit your answer, so it is 100% correct.  please do that and ask the next question.

Tunnels that first saw only el cars than subway cars include the lower level of 9th Avenue Station. the Culver using the lower level, and West End, was B and  is now D the upper, with lower only for storage; the tunnel between the junction west of 9th Avenue Station (incines only yard, formerly to Shop and 5th Avenue El.); and the subway between Williamsburg Bridge and Chamber Street Station, where El cars were used until enough steels came on-line.

Main Street, Flushing was different.  IRT subway cars went there several years b efore BMT sevice started with El cars from Queens plaza.  Now only the 7.  2nd Av. El. cars never went beyond Wollets pt. blvd into Main street.

 

 

T

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, December 24, 2021 4:48 AM

If Overmold doesn't wish to do the small edit on his answer to correct it, possibly because he doesn't have another good question at the moment, rc, why don't step-up-to-the-plate/

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