Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[daveklepper]

The BMT had one Pullman-built subway-elevated aluminum train, built as an experiment about 1935.   The "Little Flower" saw it in for coupler replacement at Coney Island shops and ordered it donated to the scrap drive.  It proved when operating that elevated trains could be much quieter.   Possibly used PCC resilient wheels.   Its nickname was "The Gren Hornet>"

The BMT also had one Clark Equipment Company experimental aluminum PCC car, the only North American PCC not built by St.  Lous, Pullman, or Candian Car and Foundry.  It was built shortly after the first 1935 standard PCC's arrived from St. Louis as a replacement for one Brooklyn car that was diverted to Pittsburgh as a demonstrator and stayed there.  The St/ Lous cars were 1001 - 1099, and 1001 is restored and operating at the Branford, CT. musuem.  The aluminum car was numbered 1000.   In 1957, when Brooklyn streetcar service ceased, 1001 was already at Branford, and 1000 eventually went to Kingston, NY as part of the museum there.   I heard a rumor that because of detioriated condition, it was scrapped.  Too bad,.it pioneered standee windows.

 

Third Avenue Railway. later Third Avenue Transit, had home-built aluminum 551-600. double-end Peter Witts, used almost exclusively on Broadway-42nd Street, with their steel 601-625 Corten cousins.   They all went to Brazil in 1948, and a few have been preserved there, one operating at a museum.

 

The Cincinnati and Lake Erie "Red Devils", later on LVT's "Liberty Bell" and Crandic were aluminum.  A few have been preserved, one at Branford.

[passengerfan]

Okay Here is my list of RRs that owned Aluminum Cars.

NYNH&H Comet

CN Tempo & Turbo.

B&O 1st lightweight Royal Blue transferred to Alton

GM&N Rebels

L&N Hummingbirds

NC&STL-L&N Georgians

MP Various postwar cars

T&P Various postwar cars

IGN Various postwar cars

KCS various postwar cars

UP various prewar and postwar cars

C&NW various prewar and postwar cars in City service

WAB coaches built for and assigned to City of St. Louis

Alton 2nd Abraham Lincoln 

Whose question?

I am trying to work in some much needed Vacation time and finally get a chance to try my new camera I purchased over a year ago for RR pictures and so far it has only shot family and a quick trip to San Diego. I am hoping to get away some time in the next three weeks.

Al - in - Stockton

[Deggesty]

passengerfan

Whose question?

Al, it looks as though Wanswheel (10:07 am on 10-21) gave more roads than anybody else.

Incidentally, I remember a comment to the effect that, since they were much lighter than steel cars, the aluminum cars did not "ride like Pullmans."

Johnny

[passengerfan]

Deggesty

passengerfan

Whose question?

Al, it looks as though Wanswheel (10:07 am on 10-21) gave more roads than anybody else.

Incidentally, I remember a comment to the effect that, since they were much lighter than steel cars, the aluminum cars did not "ride like Pullmans."

Johnny

Johnny the early Aluminum cars rode rough from what I have read, but having ridden a number of the postwar aluminum trains and cars I came away very favorably impressed susch as the AC&F UP postwar cars, CN Turbos, but not the Tempo cars. It was the truck dsign under the latter that gave them such a poor ride at speed. I think I have commented beore that anything over fifty was like a bucking bronc. They were perfect as the ski trains and should fit nicely on the Algoma Central where there speeds will remain low. In SW Ontario sevices they were built for higher speeds but the new truck design was not capable of handling the cars sway and pitch. Witnessed a Club car attendent spill a entire tray of drinks while trying to serve them. I have talked to few people who rode the cars when they were in SW Ontario service who had anything good to say about there ride, Th Turbos were kind of rough riding when operating slow through the switches at terminals but once above 35 mph they seemed to smooth out and it made for a very comfortable ride in the faster speed ranges.

Al - in - Stockton.     

[wanswheel]

What was the first locomotive built in the Empire State?

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3c00000/3c09000/3c09700/3c09770v.jpg

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=908142

Mike

[Texas Zepher]

Well, I don't know if the manufacturers had multiple shops or not...

Rodgers was NJ.
Baldwin was Philly.
Lima was in Ohio.

Even the predecessors of Alco are a bit too modern to be the first.  Those would be Brooks or Schenectady Locomotive Works.

The "Monster" was built in N.J. 

So it is probably a locomotive built by one of the many tiny machine shops such as one of the  H.R. Dunham built locomotives for the Camden & Amboy sometime between 1834 and 1836.


 

[henry6]

The builder in New York City was West Point Foundery...I just can't remember the engine...perhaps Best Freind of Charleston?

[wanswheel]

Henry, yes your turn. The Best Friend of Charleston was the first locomotive in the world to pull a passenger train in 1830. The boiler and other parts were cast at West Point Foundry in Cold Spring, just south of Breakneck Point (tunnel picture) and across the Hudson from Storm King and the U.S. Military Academy. The foundry existed to make cannons at a secure location away from the coast, in peacetime it could diversify. The erecting shop was on Beach St. at West St. in Manhattan. Southern Railway's 1928 replica is not an exact copy of the original, which exploded in 1831.

http://www.samlindsey.com/images/FamilyHist/BestFriend_81.gif

http://books.google.com/books?id=FtsRIRjninUC&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q=&f=true

[henry6]

Speaking of early locomotive works...I believe there were six which joined to make the American Locomotive Works...name them and their cities.

[daveklepper]

Not really revenue, but the first USA steam loco was the Tom Thumb, and it was built by Peter Cooper at his foundry in Manhattan for the B&O.

[wanswheel]

Tom Thumb's brass engine was built at Sterling Works in New York to Peter Cooper's specifications and he used it in his factory "for pumping water and other purposes." The locomotive, as distinct from the engine, he built at Mount Clare.

Peter Cooper in the Boston Herald, July 9, 1882:

"It is now about fifty-five years since I was drawn into a speculation in Baltimore. Two men there, whom I knew slightly, came up and asked me to join them in buying a tract of three thousand acres of land within the city limits. It included the shore for three miles, and the new Baltimore and Ohio Railroad was going to run through it. The road was chartered, and a little of it was graded. Its cars were to be drawn by horses; nobody thought of the possibility of steam. I consulted my friend Gideon Lee, ... and he advised me that it was a good scheme. He said the land was worth five hundred thousand dollars, whether the road was ever finished or not. So I went to Baltimore, saw the land, and agreed to take one-third, and paid my money, twenty thousand dollars.

"They drew on me every little while for taxes, etc., and when, at the end of a year, I went down again, I found out that neither of my partners had paid a cent on the purchase, and that I had been sending down money to pay their board! The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad had got some wooden rails laid, and thinking it might amount to something, I bought my swindling partners out, paying one of them ten thousand dollars. I thought it would pay, for the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad had run its tracks down to Ellicott's Mills, thirteen miles, and had laid 'quakehead' rails, as they called them, strap rails, you know, and had put on horses. Then they began to talk about the English experiments with locomotives. But there was a short turn of one hundred and fifty feet radius around Point of Rocks, and the news came from England that Stephenson said that no locomotive could draw a train on any curve shorter than a nine hundred foot radius. The horse-car didn't pay and the road stopped. The directors had a bad fit of the blues. I had naturally a knack at contriving, and I told the directors that I believed I could knock together a locomotive that would get the train around Point of Rocks. I found that my speculation was a loss unless I could make the road a 'go.'

"So I came back to New York and got a little bit of an engine, about one horse-power (it had a three and a half inch cylinder, and fourteen inch stroke), and carried it back to Baltimore. I got some boiler iron and made a boiler, about as big as an ordinary washboiler, and then how to connect the boiler with the engine I didn't know... .

"I had not only learned coach-making and wood carving, but I had an iron-foundry and had some manual skill in working in it. But I couldn't find any iron pipes. The fact is that there were none for sale in this country. So I took two muskets and broke off the wood part, and used the barrels for tubing to the boiler, laying one on one side and the other on the other. I went into a coach-maker's shop and made this locomotive, which I called the 'Tom Thumb,' because it was so insignificant. I didn't intend it for actual service, but only to show the directors what could be done. I meant to show two things: first, that short turns could be made; and, secondly, that I could get rotary motion without the use of a crank. I effected both of these things very nicely. I changed the movement from a reciprocating to a rotary motion. I got steam up one Saturday night; the president of the road and two or three gentlemen were standing by, and we got on the truck and went out two or three miles. All were very much delighted, for it opened new possibilities for the road. I put the locomotive up for the night in a shed. All were invited to a ride Monday - a ride to Ellicott's Mills. Monday morning, what was my grief and chagrin to find that some scamp had been there, and chopped off all the copper from the engine and carried it away - doubtless to sell to some junk dealer. The copper pipes that conveyed the steam to the piston were gone. It took me a week or more to repair it. Then (on Monday it was) we started - six on the engine and thirty-six on the car. It was a great occasion, but it didn't seem so important then as it does now. We went up an average grade of eighteen feet to the mile, and made the passage (thirteen miles) to Ellicott's Mills in an hour and twelve minutes. We came back in fifty-seven minutes. Ross Winans, the president of the road, and the editor of the Baltimore Gazette, made an estimate of the passengers carried and the coal and water used, and reported that we did better than any English road did for four years after that. The result of that experiment was that the bonds of the road were sold at once, and the road was a success."

[daveklepper]

Was the locomotive used in revenue service until they got something more substantial or did they revert to horses?

[henry6]

The locomotive was thrown on a siding or in a shed and neglected for years while horses continued operations.

[Texas Zepher]

 

henry6

Speaking of early locomotive works...I believe there were six which joined to make the American Locomotive Works...name them and their cities.

Well I already named two:  Brooks Locomotive Works in Dunkirk, NY and Schenectady Locomotive Works in duh Schenectady, NY.

Dickson Manufacturing in Scranton, PA

Rhode Island Locomotive Works in Providence, RI (as I recall was bankrupt at time of the merger)

Cooke Locomotive in Paterson New Jersey

Richmond Locomotive works in duh Richmond, VA

Manchester Locomotive in duh Manchseter, NH

and ummm another city name one....   

[henry6]

Well Tex, you got all I was thinking of...but Taunton in RI may have been another...it gets murkey  because so many had already combined...like Rogers into Cooke in Paterson...

Ya got it!  Ya go next!

[henry6]

T Z:  your turn to ask a question....

[henry6]

Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know?  I PM'd him and got no response...

 THEREFORE...I''' venture another question.   I am going to the wilds of Pennsylvania tormorrow (Sat 11/7 to venture the paths of probably almost a dozen fallen flags...and pennants...and handkerchiefs tied to tree limbs...aside from the given, PRR, NYC, name as many of the fallen that I may encounter.  I live in Vestal, NY, I will travel no more than 100 miles away from my home and in probably a more west-southwesterly direction than any other.  See you tomorrow night.

[Texas Zepher]

henry6

Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know?  I PM'd him and got no response...

Forgot all about this thread especially that I had answered a question here.  But I generally like answering rather than asking the questions anyway...

[Deggesty]

henry6

Texas Zepher seems to have dissappeared....I hope he is ok...does anybody know?  I PM'd him and got no response...

 THEREFORE...I''' venture another question.   I am going to the wilds of Pennsylvania tormorrow (Sat 11/7 to venture the paths of probably almost a dozen fallen flags...and pennants...and handkerchiefs tied to tree limbs...aside from the given, PRR, NYC, name as many of the fallen that I may encounter.  I live in Vestal, NY, I will travel no more than 100 miles away from my home and in probably a more west-southwesterly direction than any other.  See you tomorrow night.

I may be a bit out on distance on some of these, but I can name the following:

Lehigh Valley, Reading, Erie, Lackawanna, Delaware & Hudson, B&O, PRR, NYC, West Shore, Northern Central.

Edit: add Jersey Central.

Johnny

[henry6]

With the exception of the D&H and RDG (where I'm not going) you got the flags.  How 'bout the pennents and handkerchiefs?

[Deggesty]

henry6

With the exception of the D&H and RDG (where I'm not going) you got the flags.  How 'bout the pennents and handkerchiefs?

Henry, I'm really not sure as to what you mean by "pennants and handkerchiefs." Does this refer to small roads such as Buffalo Rochester and Pittsburgh and switching roads?

Thanks,

Johnny

[henry6]

You've got the right idea, Johnny...small and smaller!  I't too tired to do much tonight so I'll wait til tomorrow night giving an opportunituy to see how many roads, big, less big, and little and littler I was able to see, both operating and abandoned...long abandoned...I saw today!

But I will give you my parameters...west from Vestal, NY to Southport, NY, then into PA as far west as Port Alleghaney, south to Wharton, and back east again to Vestal, NY.

[henry6]

Lehigh Valley, Reading, Erie, Lackawanna, Delaware & Hudson, B&O, PRR, NYC, West Shore, Northern Central.

Edit: add Jersey Central.

Johnny

Johnny is along some of the right tracks...a little editing...take out Jersey Central, Reading, West Shore, and D&H.  Keep the others but...some of their predeccessors and successors have to be taken into consideration plus connections.  I will forgive all the names of the lumber company railroads simpley because there were so many and so many which changed names if not ownership so frequently that I cannot keep track.  But see who can fill in the most information before this evening before I award the prize.

[henry6]

I did the trip and the report is below...Johnny, you came closest by naming the major roads I would encounter...but I really didn't expect anyone to come up with the minor and sub minor ones...so it's your turn to ask...for those of you interested please read on..

 

...here goes the itinery:

Left the house and drove NY17 built on the former DL&W roadbed and across the river from the former Erie (EL,CR, NS) crossin over the former LV at Waverly.  Off the super hiway over to the southside of teh Susquehanna from Wellsburg to Elmira not only along the Erie but also taking in the former trolley row and powerhouse-station-barn on the way to Elmira...to Southport and onto the former PRR right of way to the Bulkhead then over to Pine City and trace the long gone Erie Tioga Division over Jackson Summit to Tioga Jct. PA.  Then north to Lawrence and west on PA 49 crossing the NYC's Wellsboro and Jersey Shore branch (later PC, later CR, with Erie and EL trackage rights) in search of NYC Fallbrook road branch up to Ulyssis, PA.  Meanwhile we ;picked up the Buffalo and Susquehanna (to B&O to Wellsville, Addison, and Galeton) at Elkland.  We continued west to Westfield, bid adieu to the NYC and took the WAG to Galeton and west to Walton via Rt 6.  A stop at the PA Lumber Museum gave us a chance to lookover a Shay and a Brookfield along with a steam logging crane which used to ride the sides of gons loading logs.  At Coudersport we picked up the Coudersport and Port Allegehney into Port Allegheney where we went south along the PRR (PC, CR, NS, now WN&PA) to Keating Summit passing by the bridge abutments of the Potato Creek RR.  A left turn had us following the Potato Creek abandoned roadbed to Austin where the abandoned B&S came up from Wharton.  From Keating to Wharton there were probably at least a dozen lumber roads which wandered up the runs (logging days way of naming streams leading away from main rivers and where logs were cut and slid down hill until tracks laid).  At Wharton we turned north to follow the  B&S (B&O) toward Galeton. Gas drilling at Hull forced us up the main road to Cherry Springs instead of being able to drive the roadbed and switchbacks up the hill.  From Galeton we went east on Rt 6 to Ansonia along the WAG (B&O) to Ansonia Jct. and the now walking path right of way of the former NYC (PC, CR) to Jersey Shore.  East on Rt 6 through Wellsboro then 660 to Covington and back to the  Erie (EL) Tioga Div. to Blossburg, Morris Run and Fall Brook.  Over the mountain somehow and we ended up in Canton, PA along the PRR's Northern Central just south of town, then east on Rt 414 along the never railed roadbed of the Pittsburg, Binghamton and Eastern  (no rails laid except in Canton where they displayed a large locomotive in the early 1900s).  We picked up the Susquehanna and New York's former right of way before entering Monroeton, PA where we met the LV's Sullivan and State Line-Bowmans Creek line, now the Monroeton Shippers Lifeline which connects to the former LV (CR, NS, Sayre to Mahoopany now a shortline in the hands of Owego and Harford). 

Gem of the day: CP&PA four wheel caboose on display at Coudersport. Beam marked "B&S GALETON" and arch bar trucks with B&S embossed in the steel.

Second gem of the day:  Near Burrows south of Galeton: a 1920 circa MACCAR bus being used as a hunting camp.

So, to answer the question what railroads...a lot, some new, some old, some there, most no longer here. 

 

[Deggesty]

henry6

Johnny, you came closest by naming the major roads I would encounter...but I really didn't expect anyone to come up with the minor and sub minor ones...so it's your turn to ask.

When the one-night-out coach trains were inaugurated between Chicago and Miami in 1940, three sets of equipment were used, with each train being turned and started back to Chicago about an hour and a half after it arrived, in mid-afternoon, in Miami.

In the winter of 1950, the City of Miami was operated on this schedule, but the other two trains, the Dixie Flagler and the South Wind both left Chicago (still every third day) later in the morning, arriving in Miami later in the day than the City of Miami did–and left Miami for Chicago in the morning the same day, arriving in Chicago earlier than the City of Miami did. Yet, only three sets of equipment were needed for the Chicago-Miami service. There was still one arrival in, and one departure from, Miami each day.

How was this worked?

All three trains were coach and Pullman.

I am sure that Henry had a great day, even though he saw many places where much had been.

Johnny

[KCSfan]

Johnny,

Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains:

CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day

SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day

DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day

Are these the schedules on which your question is based?

Mark

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

Johnny,

Before trying to figure this one out I need to see if I'm working with the right schedules. The closest OG I have to the time period of your question shows the following schedules for each of the three trains:

CM - Lv Chi 8:10 am - Arr Miami 3:40 pm next day; Lv Miami 5:40 pm - Arr Chi 10:55 pm next day

SW - Lv Chi 9:00 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:55 pm next day

DF - Lv Chi 9:10 am - Arr Miami 4:45 pm next day; Lv Miami 12:50 pm - Arr Chi 6:30 pm next day

Are these the schedules on which your question is based?

Mark

Mark, there is no appreciable difference between the schedules you have and the schedules in effect in February of 1950.

CM: Lv Chicago  8:10 am, Ar Miami  3:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 5:25 pm, Ar Chicago 10:45 pm the next day.

SW & DF: Lv Chicago 10:00 am, Ar Miami 6:25 pm the next day; Lv Miami 11:30 am, Ar Chicago 6:00 pm the next day.

Johnny

Johnny

[passengerfan]

Johnny

It was right about that 1950 time period when the City of Miami and South Wind added a second consist each operating over there routes while the Dixie Flagler remained a single consist. All three trains had lost there coach only status by that time and Pullmans were operated in each consist as well. At first the Pullmans were heavyweights and were soon replaced by lightweights as the car builders caught up with orders. When the two trains added a second consist they each had more service time in Chicago. According to the information I have the City of Miami was always the most popular of the three with the South Wind second and the Dixie Flagler third. There are photos of the City of Miami running with as many as twenty cars in the winter months. I will always regret not riding any of the IC trains when I had the chance. I believe the IC and PRR trains both provided every other day service over there routes when they added the second consists.

Al - in - Stockton

PS I dont have all of my Official Guides at the house and the closest I have is a June 1954 one. I have dozens in a storage locker along with RR magazines that I don't have room for in my apartment. I only keep a few guides and all of my hardbound RR books at the apartment in legal bookcases ( It keeps them clean and cuts down on the amount of dusting). I have to stop collecting or start shopping for a bigger place.

[KCSfan]

I thought the trio ran with a single trainset each until 1957 when the Dixie Flagler was discontinued. After that time the CofM and SW operated on alternate days which necessitated the addition of a second trainset to each one. Al seems to be saying something a bit different in his prior post. Hopefully someone will confirm exactly what the set up was.

Mark

[Deggesty]

First, let me say that I do not have a definite word as to just how the DF & SW managed to have the service that is shown in the February, 1950, Guide. From the equipment that is listed, I surmised a certain procedure that was followed; this procedure made it possible for the daily Chicago-Miami service to still be provided by only three sets of equipment.

Second, there were several variations after the Winter 1950 season, which ended with the SW and CM operating on alternate days after the Dixieland (the renamed Dixie Flagler) was discontinued. At the moment, I do not have any of the timetables or Guides which show these variations near my computer. Some of these did require two sets of equipment for at least one of the trains.

Now, a clue (perhaps) as to why I believe that it was possible for three sets to provide the service:

The observation cars and diners were cut off in Jacksonville in the morning, and thus could leave for Chicago that evening. (It is interesting that the ACL representation shows no diner south of Jacksonville, and the FEC representation shows only a Jacksonville-Miami diner for each train.) Remember that the sleepers at this time were heavyweight, and probably were from the Pullman pool.

Johnny