Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

[daveklepper]

The Columbus-Samdusky line was known as "The Sandusky Line" and was where PRR Js replaceced the Decopads on mostly coal, then were supplemented with Sante Fe Texas types for a fiinal great steam show.

 

And some equiment built new when I was a younster has spenet more time in railroad museum service or just display than in revenue service.   In fact, this is true of the locomotives in UP's steam program.   And 611.

[NP Eddie]

Rob and All:

The Milwaukee Road had a line between St. Paul, MN and Duluth, MN.

Did the Milwaukee use their own tracks or use another railroad. If so, which railroad did the Milwaukee use?

Also, Milwaukee trains headed north (geographically), but what railroad direction was used and why?

Happy Hunting!!!

[rcdrye]

MILW used NP's "Skally Line" from St. Paul to Duluth and Superior.  Even though the compass direction was north by northeast, the line was east-west by timetable.  The NP lines were timetable west away from St. Paul.  The MILW used NPs direction (and rules), though of course Duluth was also "west" of Milwaukee and Chicago.

[NP Eddie]

Rob:

Yes, the MILW used the NP from St. Paul to Duluth, but both the NP and GN timetables had trains going to Duluth or Superior was eastbound and trains from Superior and Duluth were westbound. At Coon Creek, trains were westbound on the NP/GN joint line, but eastbound from Coon Creek to Superior.

Next question to Rob.

Ed Burns

[rcdrye]

Depending on the year, this Chicago to West Coast streamliner either had the  most engine changes or tied for the fewest.

I did see that the NP trains were even-numbered from St. Paul to Duluth.  All three pool RRs (GN, NP and SOO) used the same timetable direction.

[daveklepper]

My firwst thought was The City of Portland.  Originally an articulated train with no engine changes between Chicago and Portland.  But in later years was combined with other west-coast trains without loosing its name, and when switched with the others from the C&NW to the Milwaukee it had at least two engine changes, one at Omaha and one at Green River or Ogden, depending on routing.

But then there was the Olympian Hiawatha, with occasional use of deisel power running right through Chicago - Tacoma. and at other times two changes diesel to electric and two electric to diesel.  0 - 4!

[rcdrye]

I was definitely thinking of the Olympian Hi.  Some years the power ran through Chicago to Tacoma, others there were three engine changes, at Harlowton MT, Avery ID and Othello WA. UP's streamliners didn't get more than two.  Good Job!

If the Olympian Hi was combined with one of the other Hiawathas between Chicago and Minneapolis, there could be a fourth.  The electrics (or diesels) ran around the train at Seattle and pulled it backwards between there and Tacoma, so, at least technically, no engine change.

[daveklepper]

Name all the railroads that had a marine operation of one type or another in the New York City area in the 1930's.  A partial answer is acceptable if it includes at least four railroads that had no waterfront terminal in the State of New Jersey, but terminals elsewhere,  and at least six that regularly had passenger equipment enter Manhattan Island, serving GTC or Penn or Both.  Information on the location of each waterfront terminal (some had more than one) and freight houses in Manahattan and other boroughs will be a bonus for us.  Note that some railroads reached their waterfront terminals using other railroads' tracks and sometimes trains.

[daveklepper]

And one of the railroads reached its waterfront freight terminal only by using the tracks of two other railroads.

And one of the railroads did not have a waterfront terminal on a body of water abuting New York, but still had a navel presence and freight house.

And one of the railroads' oassebger equipment reached Manhattan only in the trains of two other railroads.

[rcdrye]

I'm going to start with GCT and Penn in the 1930s.  The FIVE railroads whose trains appeared under their own names were NYC and NYNH&H (GCT) PRR, LIRR, NYNH&H and Lehigh Valley (Penn).  B&O trains arriving via Reading and CNJ rights had used Penn under USRA control, but gave up the rights to do so in 1924, reverting to CNJ's terminal.

LIRR, and NYNH&H had a joint carfloat terminal at Bay Ridge, NH had another bridge at Oak Point in the Bronx.  NYC had its own float bridges near the 60th street yards, West Shore's were across the river in Weehawken.  B&O had its main float operation on the Staten Island Rapid Transit (which is in New York), but it also had rights to use CNJ's near the New Jersey waterfront. Brooklyn East District Terminal had some of its own floats, served by Moran tugs.

B&O, CNJ, DL&W and LV all had Harlem River freighthouses reachable only by water.  Tugs set up for Harlem River service had short stacks to clear the swing bridges so they didn't have to be opened.  DL&W had an small yard next to the Brooklyn Navy Yard that was electrified.  The South Brooklyn Ry, an arm of Brooklyn Rapid Transit, interchanged with Bush Terminal for float access.

I need a better magnifying glass to pick out some of the freight houses or piers where station floats were used.  I'm sure of NYC, PRR and LV.  Most of the Hudson piers south of the NYC yards could handle station floats, but some were only served by particular carriers.  A station float has a track on each side of a central platform to allow direct loading of break-bulk freighters.

Central Vermont had a freight house on the East River reached by steamer from New London, but no carfloat operations.

At least NYC(West Shore), CNJ, Erie, and DL&W had their own passenger ferries in the 1930s.  All of them  plus PRR, LIRR and B&O also had their own tugs, though Moran did contract work for most of them from time to time as well.

[daveklepper]

Your answer is complete enough, and picked up the CV, which was the most difficult, and the B&O, the second.   You only showed five RR with passenger equipment entering Manhattan, and those were the four whose trains entered Manhattan.   But as you pointed out, CV had a naval presence, and its passenger equipment, often with CN markings, served both GCT (Ambassador) and Penn (Montrealer-Washingtonian), running in Boston and Maine and New Haven trains to reach Manhattan.  For that matter, there were seventh and eigth railroads, CP and D&H, via NYCentral, but they did not have a naval presence.   And then one could add all the Southern Railroads via PRR, again but without naval operations.

Your question.

[rcdrye]

I could have added the Rutland, Southern, ACL, SAL, FEC, RF&P and N&W, too.  I figured you were looking for RRs whose names would be on the departure boards.  There was also a QC/CP/B&M/NH car into the 1930s, and through cars from the MEC as well. CP/TH&B from Toronto is there as well.

[daveklepper]

But of all the providers of thru cars mentioned, only the CV had a naval operation, and it was the 6th railroad.   Next?

[wanswheel]

I don’t know about the 1930s, but earlier in the century SP had steamers to New Orleans. Rcdrye, impressive answer to a daunting question!

[rcdrye]

Whew.  Now for what should be a simple one.  This regional railroad that was operated under lease as part of a larger system bought one diesel locomotive with very light axle loadings to reach a port over trackage rights.  The port was visited by several car ferry operations.  Name the regional, the larger system, the host road and the port.  Extra credit for the car ferry operators.

Hint: Before the lightweight was finally retired, its axle loadings got heavier.  The host railroad was known for buying engines with very light axle loadings as late as the 1970s.

[daveklepper]

I berlieve SP's steanship line to New York was gone by the 1930s, and its passenger equipment was not regularly schedules into New York until that post-WWII period when trainscontinental sleepers operated, including one via New Orleans. Interesting that they had such a steamship line.   Was passenger traffic involved, or just frieght?  I imagine freight rates were sinilar to the CV-CN service and less than direct rail.

[wanswheel]

Sunset Gulf—The “100 Per Cent Route”

Ocean to Ocean Service,—Regularity, Dependability, Speed and Car Savings, its Features

By G.W. Luce, Freight Traffic Manager

Few accomplishments in the history of railroading can compare, in magnitude and importance to the shipping public, with the establishment of the Southern Pacific Lines-Sunset Gulf Route as a complete system operating under one management from coast to coast.

The inception of the various units comprising this great system dates back to the middle of the nineteenth century. Today, when progress and development have been so splendidly exemplified in the matter of Southern Pacific operation, the regularity and dependability of its service makes it one of the controlling factors in transportation channels in this country.

The Southern Pacific Company—Pacific System, Galveston & San Antonio Company, Texas & New Orleans R.R. Co., Western R.R. Co., Morgans, Louisiana & Texas Railroad & Steamship Company and the Atlantic Steamship Lines (Morgan Line), make up the through route.

The process of amalgamating many links is concealed in the perfection of the completed chain. The rail lines, including their numerous branches serving all the highly productive areas in the western and southwestern states, operating under a fast freight schedule between Pacific points on the one hand and Galveston and New Orleans on the other hand, coupled with the fleet of fast freight boats between Galveston and New York, and both freight and passenger boats between New Orleans and New York, offer to shippers and receivers of transcontinental freight by far the most regular and dependable service.

The rail portion of the route represents the development of a number of small, independent lines, the first link of the present great chain being the Harrisburg Railroad & Trading Company, chartered under the Republic of Texas in 1841, which line formed the nucleus of what is now the Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio Railway Company, established in 1870. In the meantime, the other links, both to the east and west of this line were being pushed to completion with all the speed which the early day construction facilities would permit; progress on some of the lines, however, was interrupted during the period of the Civil War.

How the Service Grew

The water portion of the route is the out-growth of a small fleet of side wheel steamers owned and operated by Charles Morgan, plying between various gulf ports and later between New Orleans and New York, subsequently purchased by the M.L. & T. Railroad & Steamship Company.

The through route from Pacific Coast to New York via Algiers, La., was opened as a unit under one controlling management on the 1st of February, 1883, and it was not until August 2, 1902, after completion by the Southern Pacific Terminal Company at a cost of several million dollars, of extensive terminals at the port of Galveston that steamship service between New York and Galveston was inaugurated.

The fleet, still flying the Morgan flag and still designated as “The Morgan Line” now consists of 17 freighters, 5 passenger ships and 2 tank ships. Three additional freighters and one tank ship are now nearing completion and will be placed in service early this year. Most of these ships were in the service of the United States Government in late world conflict, during which the fleet suffered one casualty—the steamer Antilles sunk by an enemy submarine.

New Orleans enjoys the distinction of operating the passenger line to New York, there being three splendid steamers in regular service. These are regarded as possibly the finest and most elaborately appointed vessels in the coastwise traffic of America. While these ships carry general freight cargoes additional strictly freight carriers also operate between New Orleans and New York. Galveston, however, is the principal port so far as the transfer of transcontinental freight is concerned. Fourteen fast cargo boats ply regularly between this port and New York on a six day schedule, ships leaving Galveston each Monday, Thursday and Saturday and from New York each Monday, Wednesday and Friday. It is this service particularly that renders possible great saving in time between the Pacific and the Atlantic coasts as against the all-rail overland route.

Modern Methods Prevail

The highest degree of efficiency is maintained at the ports where freight is transferred from rail to steamers and from steamers to rail. The docks are equipped with electric conveyors to expedite cargo handling and in normal times over 1000 laborers and a clerical force of 150 men are employed on the docks both at Galveston and New Orleans, and it is often the case that a ship being unloaded from the forward hold is at the same time receiving cargo through the main hold; freight reaching port in the morning is frequently en route to its rail destination by night. Twenty-four hours is the approximate time required to clear the dock of all freight discharged from one steamer.

To give you an idea of the magnitude and capacity of the Southern Pacific Company's Galveston facilities, the improvement today consists of some 25 miles of track, 7000 lineal feet of dock space, with sufficient docks to berth six steamers at one time; 162,500 square feet of unloading wharves or aprons; 57,000 square feet of uncovered platforms; 290,700 square feet of covered sheds and 70,000 square feet of concrete warehouses, occupying in all 323 acres. A concrete grain elevator with a million bushels capacity is one of the special features of our facilities, and as an addition to the efficiency of the whole, eight 50,000 barrel steel tanks are located in the terminals for the receipt and handling of fuel oil for use by the rail lines.

The Southern Pacific Lines in the past years of operation of the Sunset Gulf Route, have established and maintained an enviable record of service, the outstanding features being prompt dispatch, regularity and dependability of service accorded the traffic from points of origin to destination, —these being the all important considerations from the viewpoint of shippers and receivers of freight.

Six Car Days Saved

Another point in connection with the Sunset Gulf Route—one of the utmost importance to carriers and the shipping public alike, but a point never sufficiently dwelt upon to bring out its full significance, is —CAR SUPPLY. Take a shipment say from San Francisco to New York, routed Sunset Gulf; a car is in service approximately 9 days San Francisco to Galveston and is immediately made available for another shipment, the original shipment continuing on its journey to New York by water. Then consider a shipment routed via an all-rail route, San Francisco to New York, consuming, for example, 15 days, or 6 days longer than the shipment by rail and water. This indicates a saving of 6 car days in favor of the shipment routed Sunset Gulf as against the all-rail shipments. Each Atlantic Steamship Line steamer carries an average of 145 carloads; there are three sailings a week each way between Galveston and New York, representing a total carrying capacity of 870 carloads. A saving of 6 car days on each carload means 5220 car days per week, or 745 cars per week for use in all-rail service west of Atlantic Seaboard, and also for local traffic on Southern Pacific's rails in Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico and Oregon.

The “100 Percent Route” is a designation frequently applied to the Sunset Gulf Route. This does not mean merely 100 percent Southern Pacific operation; far more than that—100 percent efficiency in service, regularity, dependability, speed and last, of the utmost importance to all, as illustrated above, car conservation.

Bearing out the stability and value of the Sunset Gulf service, no greater recommendation can be cited than the following quotation from the decision of the Interstate Commission, rendered in 1917, after a very exhaustive investigation this service:

“From the record it seems clear that the service furnished by these (Southern Pacific) lines between New York and Galveston and New York and New Orleans, is in many respects highly satisfactory to the shipping public. The regularity of the sailings, frequency of the service, the expedition with which through shipments are handled and the promptness in handling claims for damages and overcharges were testified to by numerous shippers. The efficiency and excellency of the present service over both these lines appears not to be questioned. Rarely does a record before us present an array of witnesses whose testimony so uniformly endorses the character of the service as does this record.”

rcdrye

Whew.  Now for what should be a simple one.  This regional railroad that was operated under lease as part of a larger system bought one diesel locomotive with very light axle loadings to reach a port over trackage rights.  The port was visited by several car ferry operations.  Name the regional, the larger system, the host road and the port.  Extra credit for the car ferry operators.

Hint: Before the lightweight was finally retired, its axle loadings got heavier.  The host railroad was known for buying engines with very light axle loadings as late as the 1970s.

• Reply

[rcdrye]

So, we'll drop most of the question...

This port served multiple car ferry lines, but was served at least in part by a light rail branch that was also used by another railroad via trackage rights.

[rcdrye]

This one has been sitting here 10 days, so I'll retire it.  The port I was looking for was Manitowoc Wisconsin, on a C&NW branch, served by Ann Arbor and C&O car ferries, and a PRR ferry in early years.  The Soo's Wisconsin Central, which always owned its own locomotives, bought a single A1A-A1A Alco RSC3 (2380) to reach Manitowoc from Neenah over MILW and C&NW trackage rights.  Soo's own RSC2s and RSC3s were all bought for light rail branches in the Dakotas.  The post-merger Soo Line retrucked all of the RSCs to B-B with trucks off Baldwin road switchers.  MILW bought C-C SDL39s from EMD in the 1970s to deal with their remaining light rail branch lines.

I'll post a new question later today.

[rcdrye]

This eastern railroad, which operated sleeping cars on its trains right up to 1971, did not own any streamlined sleeping cars, with all cars coming from its major connection.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I would say that the railroad is Delaware & Hudson, on the "Montreal Limited".

[rcdrye]

We have a winner! 

D&H used New York Central (later Penn Central) sleepers, with the Montreal Limited drawing two or more full sleepers  (often a 22Rmt  and a 12DBR) plus the 6DBR lounge used for meal service.  D&H was one of the few Pullman customers that did not get any cars in the 1940s breakup.  In the 1950s D&H used NYC heavyweights and Pullman pool cars to cover secondary trains as well.  An Albany-Montreal car- the only one that did NOT operate over NYC- sometimes drew a Canadian Pacific 10Rmt5DBR.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

South Shore, like most interurbans, operated dining and parlor cars in regular service.  What feature made South Shore's dining and parlor cars distinct from those on other interurbans?

[daveklepper]

included powered (with motors) cars, not just trailers.   included control-cab vestibules, not just blind cars.

 

but was there anjy other North American 1500V dc interurban?   If not, this also makes them unique.

[rcdrye]

How about six-wheel trucks?  I'm pretty sure CSS&SB's Diners and Parlor were not control trailers.  CNS&M's, on the other hand (and CA&E's parlors) were control trailers, though the North Shore's observations were built with control only on the vestibule end.  North Shore's (C&ME) wooden diners had motors.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

We have a winner .  South Shore's diners and two of their parlor cars were the only interurban passenger equipment to ride on Commonwealth six-wheel trucks.

[rcdrye]

South Shore's two each diners (301, 302)  and parlors (351,352) were delivered in 1927, removed from service in 1930 or 1931.  Both types of cars were scrapped to provide steel for South Shore's car lengthening program during World War II.

Dave opened an interesting point.  There were at least two other 1500 VDC interurbans.  One also had considerable mileage that was electrified at 600V.  The other was built in two sections that were never joined.  Both systems survived until after WWII and dieselization.  I'm looking for the one in two sections.

[Deggesty]

What will you do with the Piedmont and Northern after you find it?

[rcdrye]

Deggesty

What will you do with the Piedmont and Northern after you find it?

 

Turn it over to you for the next question.  The other interurban was the Sacramento Northern, which built a freight-only line at 1500 volts in 1930, and later raised the voltage on the 1200 volt former Oakland Antioch & Eastern lines.  The former Northern Electric lines were all 600 volts, mostly uncovered third rail.

[Deggesty]

What were the two routings Pullman used for overnight sleepers between Knoxville and Nashville? Roads and junction points, please.