My question is primarily for interurban fans. In the days of the highpoint of trolley technology (of era one, perhaps we are seeing the start of an era two) there were often several urban communities with the same name in the USA that had streetcars, Portland Maine and Portland Oregon being two examples, and both had at least one interurban line as well. In Oregon, the interurban outlasted the local streetcar system, but in Maine the reverse was true. Name another situation involving to urban areas with the same name, both having local streetcars and an interurban line, with one case being that the interurban quit first and the other being that the local streetcars quit first. In both cases the interurban used tracks of one of the streetcar routes (and there were more than one in both cases) to get downtown. In one case the local streetcars were operated by a different company than the interurban line, the latter not runing local streetcars anywhere, while in the other the interurban line was operated by the same operator as the local streetcars and operated local streetcars elsewhere as well. Both interurbans were truly interurbans and at one time also handled freight, but both had at least two specific characteristics that made them outside the normal practice of most USA interurban lines.
The unusual characteristics were different for the two interurbans. Also, some stretches of track of both interurban lines now see modern light rail use. And a trolley museum uses a small portion of the right of way of one of them, and another trolley museum is located NEAR the right of way of the other.
One of the interurbans served two urban areas with streetcar systems, but the two streetcar systems were of different gauge. The other interurban served two urban areas with streetcar systems, and the gauge was the same. In addition to modern light rail cars now, tracks (or RofW) of both systems saw PCC cars at one time or another. But one of the local systems never used PCC cars for local service.
The two interurbans were different in gauge. But both provided freight serice and both interchanged with other freight providers. Indeed one of the two interurbans provided the connection betweem two separated divisions of a partner freight provider.
It was not the interurban line itself (or a second line that diverged from it) that provided the tie connection for the neighboring same-wide-gauge interurban line, but rather the system in the large city that once operated lots of PCC cars in local service. There was a broad gauge freight house and team tracks downtown used by both companies.
The other standard gauge interuban did interchange with railroads, and its unusual characteristics related to use of articulated cars, like MIlwaukee's interurbans, and power considerations. IN addition to part of its RofW now seeing modern LRV's, some street trackage that saw its entrance to the named city has now been relaid, and some of the new LRV's for that line are already delivered and are nearby.
There are two scenerios that come to mind for me. One, Boston's Riverside line, I'll dismiss out of hand. Second is Philadelphia with Liberty Bell Route from Allentown and the Norristown High Speed lines...the Media line also connects in there someplace..69th St. maybe...my knowledge of the set up is very vague but I know broad guage and standard guages enter the story here as well as the rest of the set up.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Go back to the original posting, please, two urban areas in different parts of the USA with the same name, like Portland Maine and Portland Oregon, both of which at one time had both local streetcars and at least one interurban line.
More hints. The interurban line that served two major cities with both running PCC cars, indeed PCC's possibly the most important part of local transportation, did not run local services and did not have PCC cars. But the interurban line that served the urban area that did not use PCC cars in local service, with all local cars double-end cars, steel,.did use PCC interurban cars. These were equipped with special trucks, also used on many PCC rapid transit cars, with pilots, and a roof mounted headlight supplementing the regular dash headlight. But otherwise they were similar to cars received in the same order for local service. And all interuban cars on this particular line were single-ended, turned on a wye at the downtown interuban station, in contrast to the local cars. The other end of the line did have a vast PCC fleet, providing the bulk of local transportation. WEihtin the particular area, while on the tracks of one of the local lines, the interurban cars often did also provide local service, supplementing the local cars.
One of the two urban areas is at least as well known throughout the world as Portland Maine and Portland Oregon. The other is hardly know at all outside the state where it is located.
Sacramento Northern. Last Nickel streetcar in the US. The museum Western Railway Museum. Some of the SN's ROW in Sacramento is used by the light rail there. In addition for a number of years the SN shared its ROW with BART. Oh yes the shared cities Pittsburg Pittsburgh, Ca & Pittsburg Pittsburgh Pa. I don't have my reference books with me, but I think the Pa trackage in Washington, Pa is used by a museum as well. Pittsburg used PCC's
The other item I am thinking about is the Pacific Electric which was (I think) affiliated with Los Angeles Railway(narrow gauge) . Ran out to Riverside, Ca and this ties in with Henry's answer of Riverside, Ma
(This is what happens when it is the end of a long week, day , and I shoot from the hip)
Rgds IGN
"Pittsburg Pa." Don't let this post be seen in Pittsburgh, Pa. Seriously, the variations in spelling of place names from state to state can be confusing., such as Ashville, Ala., and Asheville, N. C.
Johnny
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/txu-oclc-6445490-electric_railway-joplin-1913.jpg http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a05000/6a05300/6a05358r.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/txu-oclc-6445490-electric_railway-joplin-1913.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a05000/6a05300/6a05358r.jpg
You are very very close when you mention Pittsburgh. Yes, Pittsburgh was a broad gauge system, and had two specific interurban lines, which used the PCC cars described. These interurban PCC's were the bulk of the remaining PCC fleet used until the present modern light rail cars arrived. But note that the other interurban, the standard gauge line, connected two cities that both used PCC cars as a major part of the local transportation, even thought the interurban never itself used PCC's but did have some very special cars that were used regularly and were different than most interurban cars.
If you take the trouble to investigate the Pittsburgh system, specifically its two interurban lines, when they were truly two interurban lines and not cut back to suburban operations, you will come up with the answer right away. The name involved actually survives in a specific form along the current light rail operation, not the end point.
If you don't have access to the information on the interurban lines that lasted through WWII and long enough to be equipped with PCC's, then just check all station names on the current light rail system and you will have the clue you need.
Wanswheel has the right answer and should ask the next question.
The Washington Baltimore and Annapolis did connect two cities that both used PCC cars (although not while the interurban was in operation). In never ran PCC's itself, but the tracks on Benning Road in Washington are now in place for a new light rail operation and they saw both PCC's and ealrier the WB&A interurubans, along with the deck roof older Washington cars. The WB&A used some articulated cars in the Washington - Baltimore service, and these were also equpped for the conduit system of curent collection for operation into downtown Washington. They did not mingle with streetcars in Baltimore, which was a wide-gauge system, although portions of the right of way are in use for the light rail line south of the city, including the line to the BWA airport.
Pittsburgh had the largest fleet of built-new North American PCC cars. One of the 1600 series was equipped with overhead headlight and a pilot for trial operation on the interurban lines to Washington and Charleroi-Rosco. The trial was judged successful, so about 20 of the 1700 series were built for interurban service. Washington Junction is still a light rail stop on the system, the junction between the line to South Hills Village, which used to go to Washington, PA, and the Library line, which used to go through Donorra Junction (with a single double-end deck roofer providing shuttle service across an impressive bridge to Donorra), Charleroi, with the northbound track running through the carhouse, and Roscoe. Unusual because of wide gauge, even with interchange freight with West Penn Railways, and the use of PCC's. Again, Washington, PA, had three local streetcar lines, which quit before the interurban to Pittsburgh.
Washington Union Station has 6 high statues out front, 4 mythological gods and goddesses and 2 men who actually lived. Name them.
wanswheel Washington Union Station has 6 high statues out front, 4 mythological gods and goddesses and 2 men who actually lived. Name them.
Prometheus
Themis
Apollo
Ceres
Thales
Archimedes
Myron, yes your turn.
http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm
wanswheel Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm
New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs.
ZephyrOverland wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs.
wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm
Deggesty ZephyrOverland: wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs. I have a memory of having seen mention of a Boston-Chicago 20th Century Limited, operated by the Boston and Albany east of Albany. I do not recall seeing any other, but there may have been a NY-St. Louis train that was operated by the Big 4 west of Cleveland. Also possible was a NY-Detroit train that was operated by the Michigan Central west of Buffalo.
ZephyrOverland: wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs.
I have a memory of having seen mention of a Boston-Chicago 20th Century Limited, operated by the Boston and Albany east of Albany. I do not recall seeing any other, but there may have been a NY-St. Louis train that was operated by the Big 4 west of Cleveland. Also possible was a NY-Detroit train that was operated by the Michigan Central west of Buffalo.
Yes, there was a Boston section which transferred Boston cars to and from the New York train at Albany. The Big4 also operated a Twentieth Century Limited, eastbound only, from 1902 to about 1910, primarily as a Cincinnati-Cleveland train with one through Cincinnati-New York Pullman. Unlike the Chicago and Boston Centuries, the Cincinnati Century carried Cincinnati-Cleveland coaches.
Johnny, since you got most of the answer, why don't you ask the next question.
In the 1930 winter season, how many all-Pullman trains were operated to/from Florida? (Don't worry about what went on south of Jacksonville, since quite a bit of shifting took place there.) Name the roads and, if you can, name the trains.
The Royal Palm (Sou?), the Florida Special (ACL), the Orange Blossom Special (SAL).
Possibly the Havana Special or Havana Limited was all-Pullman at the time, also. (ACL)
I knew that the 20th Century Limited had a Boston Section operated by the Boston and Albany, with locomotives prior to the J2a's having Boston and Albany on their tenders. T his section was replaced by the heavyweight New England States Limited, all Pullman, in 1938 when the lightweight 20th Century was introduced. Around 1948 or 1949, the heavyweight all-Pullman New England States was replaced by the mostly Budd lightweight coach and Pullman train.
I did not know about the Cleveland - Cincinnati train.
daveklepper The Royal Palm (Sou?), the Florida Special (ACL), the Orange Blossom Special (SAL). Possibly the Havana Special or Havana Limited was all-Pullman at the time, also. (ACL) I knew that the 20th Century Limited had a Boston Section operated by the Boston and Albany, with locomotives prior to the J2a's having Boston and Albany on their tenders. T his section was replaced by the heavyweight New England States Limited, all Pullman, in 1938 when the lightweight 20th Century was introduced. Around 1948 or 1949, the heavyweight all-Pullman New England States was replaced by the mostly Budd lightweight coach and Pullman train. I did not know about the Cleveland - Cincinnati train.
Now, to call for some head scratching (or timetable/Guide searching), I will give the number of all-Pullman (at least north of Jacksonville) trains to Florida that year: ten.
Deggesty In the 1930 winter season, how many all-Pullman trains were operated to/from Florida? (Don't worry about what went on south of Jacksonville, since quite a bit of shifting took place there.) Name the roads and, if you can, name the trains.
ACL
Havana Special
Everglades
Miamian
Gulf Coast Limited
Second The Miamian
Florida Special
Dixie Limited
Floridan
SAL
Orange Blossom Special
Seaboard Florida Limited
SR
Royal Palm DeLuxe
ZephyrOverland, you have them all! (When I was counting them up this morning, I missed the Everglades.)
You coukl call the Floridan an IC train, since the IC handled it farther (Chicago-Birmingham) than the ACL did north of Jacksonville (Albany-Jacksonville); the cars were switched in Jacksonville to the FEC train (all-Pullman) that also carried the Dixie Limited's and Flamingo's East Coast cars, and to the two ACL West Coast trains. And, the Dixie Limited could be called a "Dixie Route" (C&EI-L&N-NCSL-CG) train for the same reason (ACL Albany-Jacksonville). The Flamingo was, of course, coach and Pullman Cincinnati-Jacksonville (it also carried a Chicago-Louisville-Corbin-Jacksonville car).
Also of note is that these trains that ran overnight Jacksonville-Miami had cars to/fromPalm Beach, which were switched at West Palm Beach; sb they left WPB at 0700, and could be occupied in Palm Beach until 0730; nb they were opened at 2200, and left for WPB at 0001 (except for the Everglades car, which left in time to leave WPB at 2255.
You're up!
Not having access to timetables, I am happy to get three, almost four, out of the ten. But I rode the Everglades a number of times, in its last days. I never dreamt that it was once a deluxe all-Pullman train, because in the end it was the all-stops Washington - Jackson local that took all day, about 14 or 16 hours, to make the run. For a while it was overnight between Richmond and Savanna, with a 14-roomette sleeper replacing a 14-section, no-room sleeper. It was the slowest train on the ACL main and had the oldest hand-me-down cars. It also made all the local stops on the RF&P. It was the last use of a heavyweight Pullman on the ACL and RF&P, and occasionally had heavywieght coaches afterward. Still, it occasionally fit my work-and-visiting-friends schedule, so I used it both as a sleeper passenger and as a coach passenger. No food service on board. Meal stop in Florence.
Correction, it was a 22 roomette sleeper replacing a 16 section heavywieght, and later it ran only between Florence and Jacksonville.
Deggesty ZephyrOverland, you have them all! (When I was counting them up this morning, I missed the Everglades.) .... You're up!
....
You need to wear "formals" to ride this Erie train. Name the train and endpoints.
What else but the "Tuxedo", between Jersey City and Port Jervis.
CSSHEGEWISCH What else but the "Tuxedo", between Jersey City and Port Jervis.
Paul - You got it. The next question is yours.
Myron
What is the unique feature of BRC's Clearing Yard?
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter