New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
Johnny
I should have specified the last heavy weight sleeper line operated in the U. S. A.
Deggesty New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
Johnny, does this include Canada as well as the USA? (al)
PS Johnny: I am glad we are TRAINS Friends. I don't know how the new program functions, but pvt mail or e-mail me if you'd like my e-mail address. - a.s.
How's that for mind reading? I answered Al's question before he posted it--and we are more than a thousand miles apart!
In 1960, the New Haven was operating a 12&1 HEAVYWEIGHT as the "Dollar Saver Sleeper" on the otherwise all-lihgtweight Owl between Boston and New York. The Kansas City Florida Special, Frisco. L&N, ACL, FEC had a heavyweight in the consist that year, but I am unsure if it was regular or just a peak load addiiton.
This is just a guess, but IIRC the Soo Line ran heavyweight sleepers until the end of its passenger service. I believe the Winnipeger, which ran northwest from St. Paul, was discontinued in 1967 and probably carried a heavyweight until that time. The Soo-Dominion may have outlasted the Winnipeger, in which case that would be my guess as to the last scheduled heavyweight sleeper operation.
Mark
daveklepper In 1960, the New Haven was operating a 12&1 HEAVYWEIGHT as the "Dollar Saver Sleeper" on the otherwise all-lihgtweight Owl between Boston and New York. The Kansas City Florida Special, Frisco. L&N, ACL, FEC had a heavyweight in the consist that year, but I am unsure if it was regular or just a peak load addiiton.
Dave, you are a bit early; the car was still being operated in 1965, but not by the Frisco. Also, so far as I know the L&N and ACL never had any part in the operation of the Kansas City-Florida Special. The Frisco did operate the train, and when there were through cars to Miami the FEC carried them in other trains.
KCSfan This is just a guess, but IIRC the Soo Line ran heavyweight sleepers until the end of its passenger service. I believe the Winnipeger, which ran northwest from St. Paul, was discontinued in 1967 and probably carried a heavyweight until that time. The Soo-Dominion may have outlasted the Winnipeger, in which case that would be my guess as to the last scheduled heavyweight sleeper operation. Mark
I remember an article by DPM in TRAINS more than a few years ago about the hunt for the last heavyweight sleeping car line. It was on the SR portion of the remnant of the "Kansas City-Florida Special". DPM also remarked about the tank cars attached to the consist behind the sleeping car.
I think it was an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper on the Southern utilizing a 10-1-2 car.
ZephyrOverland Deggesty: New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car. I think it was an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper on the Southern utilizing a 10-1-2 car.
Deggesty: New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
As to Paul's mention of the tank car, I took the train from Atlanta to Memphis in May of 1963, and I wondered about the tank car, which was taken off in Birmingham. Dave Morgan, in his account of his and his wife's trip from Brunswick to Atlanta, commented that the tank car contained liquid fertilizer. I wonder now--was it liquid ammonia?
Southern was the last to join Amtrak. The Cresant ran between Washington and New Orleans with Steam line and Heavy wieght passening cars.
Southerngreen1401 Southern was the last to join Amtrak. The Cresant ran between Washington and New Orleans with Steam line and Heavy wieght passening cars.
Southern use the older heavy wieght cars as Jim Crow cars until the late 60s. I have pictures of the cars on the Cresent and other Southern passenger trains. I used the pictures to paint my Southern equipment correctly. I have several different Southern passeger trains in my layout. The only one of the Southern passeenger train I cannot show is the Best Friend of Charleston.
Southerngreen1401 Southern use the older heavy wieght cars as Jim Crow cars until the late 60s. I have pictures of the cars on the Cresent and other Southern passenger trains. I used the pictures to paint my Southern equipment correctly. I have several different Southern passeger trains in my layout. The only one of the Southern passeenger train I cannot show is the Best Friend of Charleston.
The North Carolina Transporation Museum has a lot of former Southern Heavy weight Passenger cars in their fleet. The Great Smokey Railroad have the former Streamline Passenger from SR and N&W in thier fleet. The Lancaster & Chester has help restore a lot of the Passenger equipment in both North and South Carolina and own some Passenger cars in their fleet. South Carolina Railroad museum has some Southern Steamline Passenger equipment. I have help at both North and South Carolina Museum. All the equipment is restored or being restored for return to service.
That must have been the car seen on the KC-Florida special, and I apologize for the confusion of the route east of Atlanta (east of Birmingham). Other people's answers other than the Atlanta - New Brunzwick car avoid the "regular service sleeping car line" part of the question. Some heavyweights may have continued in Pullman regular railroad usage afterward as overflow, special movement, and emergeny service. I now remember the TRAINS news item about that cars lines termination. Await the next question.
daveklepper That must have been the car seen on the KC-Florida special, and I apologize for the confusion of the route east of Atlanta (east of Birmingham). Other people's answers other than the Atlanta - New Brunzwick car avoid the "regular service sleeping car line" part of the question. Some heavyweights may have continued in Pullman regular railroad usage afterward as overflow, special movement, and emergeny service. I now remember the TRAINS news item about that cars lines termination. Await the next question.
Now, as to heavyweight sleepers used for overflow and special movements, the 1966 issue of The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows that some roads (Southern was not one them) still owned heavy weight cars--even though they were not using them in regular service. As to Canadian roads, both CP and CN had many heavy weights. I could look at the Canadian sections in the Guides I have, and possibly determine when these cars were no longer operated in regular service. Al - in- Chicago was right in asking me if I included the Canadian roads in my question.
To quote myself: ". If the Southern used any heavy weight sleepers in the late sixties, they belonged to other roads, for the March, 1966, issue of The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment shows only lightweight sleepers belonging to the Southern or the N&W (I mention the N&W because N&W sleepers ran over the Southern regularly)."
I was in error, for I did not look at the second column, which shows four sleepers, each with a seating capacity of 26, namely, "Brentwood," "Lake Childs," "Lake Pearl," and "McQuade." "Brentwood" and "McQuade" were 12-1; "Lake Childs" and "Lake Pearl" were 10-1-2. However, the May 1, 1966, Southern timetable shows no heavy weight sleeper in scheduled service. The October 31, 1965, (the next previous) timetable still shows the Atlanta-Brunswick 10-1-2.
Now, as to status of the question and answer: Texas Zepher had all the components answered correctly, even if he did allow that he was guessing, so he has the honor of proposing a new problem for us all.
"Texas Zepher had all the components answered correctly, even if he did allow that he was guessing, so he has the honor of proposing a new problem for us all." NO! Mea Culpa! It's Zephyr Overland who answered!
I made a replica of the Lake Pearl. The North Carolina Transportation Museum has one of the sleepers and the Doris which was own by the Duke Family and later Col. Elliott Springs is in the Bob Jullian Round House. There is at least one of each of the former Southern Heavy Weights Passenger Cars. The Doris which has be used for Presidental Campaigns. The state of North Carolina are trying to working with Amtrak to get her requalify for mainline service again.
Next question please!
Deggesty "Texas Zepher had all the components answered correctly, even if he did allow that he was guessing, so he has the honor of proposing a new problem for us all." NO! Mea Culpa! It's Zephyr Overland who answered!
The next question:
On April 1, 1917, the Federal Express was reestablished on an all-rail Washington-Boston routing via Hell Gate Bridge. Between 1900, when the train began, and 1917, how was the Federal Express routed between Washington and Boston?
ZephyrOverland Deggesty: "Texas Zepher had all the components answered correctly, even if he did allow that he was guessing, so he has the honor of proposing a new problem for us all." NO! Mea Culpa! It's Zephyr Overland who answered! The next question: On April 1, 1917, the Federal Express was reestablished on an all-rail Washington-Boston routing via Hell Gate Bridge. Between 1900, when the train began, and 1917, how was the Federal Express routed between Washington and Boston?
Deggesty: "Texas Zepher had all the components answered correctly, even if he did allow that he was guessing, so he has the honor of proposing a new problem for us all." NO! Mea Culpa! It's Zephyr Overland who answered!
Aww, man....can't you give us a hint? Like, would that routing (that trackage) be possible today? Assuming appropriate and available motive power? - al
al-in-chgo On April 1, 1917, the Federal Express was reestablished on an all-rail Washington-Boston routing via Hell Gate Bridge. Between 1900, when the train began, and 1917, how was the Federal Express routed between Washington and Boston? Aww, man....can't you give us a hint? Like, would that routing (that trackage) be possible today? Assuming appropriate and available motive power? - al
I don't believe any of the pre-Hell Gate Bridge routings the Federal Express used would be possible today.
The Federal began operating before 1870. Until the opening of the Poughkeepsie Bridge about 1912, the Federal was on a car ferry boat between the New Haven's Oak Point Borx yard and the PRR yard and car float (still used by Cross Harbor RR for freight) at Greenville. After 1912 until the opening of the Hell Gate Bridge, the Federal ran via the Poughkeespie Bridge and either the L&NE or the L&HR to connect with the PRR. Before 1912 there was also a day train The Coloniel, that used the car float, and this train was reestablished with the HG opening, along with two other through trains, the Patriot and the Senator.
1912 excerpt from Railway Age Gazette "The Steamer Maryland Route" for passengers between Boston and Washington is no more. The New York, New Haven & Hartford last week Friday, following a meeting of the directors of the company in New York City, announced that the transfer of passenger cars across New York harbor would be discontinued that very day. The growing freight traffic on the East and North rivers and the possibilities of danger connected with the increasing number of freight boats, especially the dangers incident to fogs, which may be expected to increase as cold weather comes on, are given as the reason for the action taken. For many years two trains each way have been carried across the harbor daily, one in the night and one in the middle of the day. The company's announcement says that the trains may be run by way of the Poughkeepsie bridge, but no announcement that such an arrangement would actually be made has yet appeared. The Poughkeepsie route is over a hundred miles longer than the one through New York City and a good deal of it is single track and far from being either straight or level. There is no question about the risks of navigation in New York harbor. Slight collisions of car floats, resulting in the submergence of from two to a dozen freight cars, occur every now and then. A boat loaded with cars can make but poor pretensions to being seaworthy, and an accident, even a slight one, to a boat carrying a half dozen passenger cars, occupied by passengers, would be very disturbing. The action of the New Haven directors is probably to be classed as a very commendable locking of the stable door before the horse is stolen. This harbor transfer, however, has been very popular and we do not recall any serious accident to the boats. The distance from the New Haven wharf north of Hell Gate to the Pennsylvania dock at Jersey City is about 12 miles, and for long stretches the current is very swift for many hours each day. These through trains were put on in May, 1876, the month that the Centennial Exposition at Philadelphia was opened, and for the first 15 years of their career, they were run over the "Air Line" and the New York & New England, east of New Haven, the New Haven road at that time having no line of its own east of New London. This transharbor route was established because of the delay and inconvenience of transferring across New York City. In 1876 there was no elevated road, and horse cars, hacks or omnibuses had to be used for the three-mile journey from the Grand Central station to the Hudson River ferry; and then there was the ferry. Now the Pennsylvania terminal is in Manhattan, within less than a mile of the Grand Central, and taxicabs make the transfer in the evening in less than 10 minutes. Passengers southbound can leave Boston at 5:30 p.m., and Washington northbound at 5:35 p.m. and still have a good night's rest over the last half of the journey, and get through in substantially the same time as before.
1912 excerpt from Railway Age Gazette
"The Steamer Maryland Route" for passengers between Boston and Washington is no more. The New York, New Haven & Hartford last week Friday, following a meeting of the directors of the company in New York City, announced that the transfer of passenger cars across New York harbor would be discontinued that very day. The growing freight traffic on the East and North rivers and the possibilities of danger connected with the increasing number of freight boats, especially the dangers incident to fogs, which may be expected to increase as cold weather comes on, are given as the reason for the action taken. For many years two trains each way have been carried across the harbor daily, one in the night and one in the middle of the day. The company's announcement says that the trains may be run by way of the Poughkeepsie bridge, but no announcement that such an arrangement would actually be made has yet appeared. The Poughkeepsie route is over a hundred miles longer than the one through New York City and a good deal of it is single track and far from being either straight or level. There is no question about the risks of navigation in New York harbor. Slight collisions of car floats, resulting in the submergence of from two to a dozen freight cars, occur every now and then. A boat loaded with cars can make but poor pretensions to being seaworthy, and an accident, even a slight one, to a boat carrying a half dozen passenger cars, occupied by passengers, would be very disturbing. The action of the New Haven directors is probably to be classed as a very commendable locking of the stable door before the horse is stolen. This harbor transfer, however, has been very popular and we do not recall any serious accident to the boats. The distance from the New Haven wharf north of Hell Gate to the Pennsylvania dock at Jersey City is about 12 miles, and for long stretches the current is very swift for many hours each day. These through trains were put on in May, 1876, the month that the Centennial Exposition at Philadelphia was opened, and for the first 15 years of their career, they were run over the "Air Line" and the New York & New England, east of New Haven, the New Haven road at that time having no line of its own east of New London. This transharbor route was established because of the delay and inconvenience of transferring across New York City. In 1876 there was no elevated road, and horse cars, hacks or omnibuses had to be used for the three-mile journey from the Grand Central station to the Hudson River ferry; and then there was the ferry. Now the Pennsylvania terminal is in Manhattan, within less than a mile of the Grand Central, and taxicabs make the transfer in the evening in less than 10 minutes. Passengers southbound can leave Boston at 5:30 p.m., and Washington northbound at 5:35 p.m. and still have a good night's rest over the last half of the journey, and get through in substantially the same time as before.
1915 NY Times article http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F10E1FF93B5A12738FDDAE0994D9405B858DF1D3
1915 NY Times article
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F10E1FF93B5A12738FDDAE0994D9405B858DF1D3
daveklepper The Federal began operating before 1870. Until the opening of the Poughkeepsie Bridge about 1912, the Federal was on a car ferry boat between the New Haven's Oak Point Borx yard and the PRR yard and car float (still used by Cross Harbor RR for freight) at Greenville. After 1912 until the opening of the Hell Gate Bridge, the Federal ran via the Poughkeespie Bridge and either the L&NE or the L&HR to connect with the PRR. Before 1912 there was also a day train The Coloniel, that used the car float, and this train was reestablished with the HG opening, along with two other through trains, the Patriot and the Senator.
According to the excellent article posted by Wanswheel, through Boston-Washington service began in 1876. Initially, the trains were operated:
PRR Washington-Jersey City
Steamer Maryland Jersey City-Hudson River Station
New Haven Hudson River Station-Boston via Willimantic
At this time the trains were named Boston and Southern Express, and Boston Express. In 1893, the New Haven portion was rerouted via the Shore Line through Providence and the trains became the Federal Express around 1900.
On October 19th, 1912, the Steamer Maryland boat connection was discontinued and the Federal Express was rerouted via Poughkeepsie Bridge using the following:
PRR Washington-Belvedere, NJ via Trenton
Lehigh and Hudson River Belvedere-Maybrook, NY
Central New England RR * Maybrook-Poughkeepsie Bridge
Dutchess County RR * Poughkeepsie Bridge-Hopewell Junction, NY
NY and New England RR * Hopewell Junction-Hawleyville, CT
Housatonic RR * Hawleyville-New Haven
New Haven New Haven-Boston
*=New Haven controlled road
Right before this change of routing occurred, there was an interim operation that lasted at least one day before the bridge route became effective. The PRR Federal Express portion operated between Washington and New York Pennsylvania Station, and an omnibus transfer was utilized between it and Grand Central Terminal where the NH Federal Express portion was operated between New York and Boston. I don't know why this was done for the one day.
While the Poughkeepsie Bridge route put the Federal Express on an all-rail routing, it came at a substantial price. Whereas the previous routing took about 12 hours, the new routing took 17 hours! The new route was 100 miles longer and utilized a mostly single track line between the PRR and NH connections.
This roundabout way between Boston and Washington existed until January 19, 1916, when the Federal Express was discontinued, with no replacement though service offered. The Federal Express reappeared between July 21, 1916 until October 1, 1916 as a once a week service for the summer resort season, going northbound on Fridays and southbound on Sundays. Afterwards, no through service was offered until the opening of Hell Gate Bridge on April 1, 1917.
The other through train on this route, the Colonial Express, was never rerouted via Poughkeepsie Bridge, not operating at all between 1912 and 1917.
The Senator began through Boston-Washington service in 1929, and the Patriot began in 1941.
Dave, you have the next question.
Don't forget, too, the DL&W took at least a sleeper out of Hoboken to Port Morris and Andover Jct. for the Express.
But a minutia question as I am not that well versed in PRR history: Was the route then Trenton to Belvedere the PRR outright or was it the Belvedere and Delaware RR (thus the nickname the Bel-Del) under the control of the PRR?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 But a minutia question as I am not that well versed in PRR history: Was the route then Trenton to Belvedere the PRR outright or was it the Belvedere and Delaware RR (thus the nickname the Bel-Del) under the control of the PRR?
According to the PRR map in the December 1912 Official Guide, the Trenton to Belvedere line was a PRR line.
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