Agree with everything he said including the food service and that is the best you can hope for on most Amtrak trains. Particularly sad was the material he is complaining about was the seat improvements Amtrak just funded....too bad they didn't have enough money to cover the curtains too (lol).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcbgoLzAoOg
In the survey box of people who watched the video, 60% said they would prefer flying; 31% would take the train.
DC to Greensboro seems a bit beyond the outer limits of likely travel by rail at conventional speeds, even when were pretty good (79-81mph according to his app). 7:48 is pretty long when a flight takes less than 90 minutes.
charlie hebdo In the survey box of people who watched the video, 60% said they would prefer flying; 31% would take the train. DC to Greensboro seems a bit beyond the outer limits of likely travel by rail at conventional speeds, even when were pretty good (79-81mph according to his app). 7:48 is pretty long when a flight takes less than 90 minutes.
DC to Greensboro NC is only a 5 hour drive. Not worth the first and last mile and terminal hassles of flying. Figure 30 minutes drive, 90 minutes terminal dwell at DC, 90 minutes gate to gate, 45 minutes terminal, car rental and drive at Greensboro. That's 4:15 - and expensive.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd charlie hebdo In the survey box of people who watched the video, 60% said they would prefer flying; 31% would take the train. DC to Greensboro seems a bit beyond the outer limits of likely travel by rail at conventional speeds, even when were pretty good (79-81mph according to his app). 7:48 is pretty long when a flight takes less than 90 minutes. DC to Greensboro NC is only a 5 hour drive. Not worth the first and last mile and terminal hassles of flying. Figure 30 minutes drive, 90 minutes terminal dwell at DC, 90 minutes gate to gate, 45 minutes terminal, car rental and drive at Greensboro. That's 4:15 - and expensive.
I think the time would be somewhat less than 4:15, depending on when and where. A businessperson or government-connected person, maybe, whose time is valued, would fly. Other folks (those on a budget or living in suburbs in Maryland or Fairfax County away from Alexandria) would drive. Some budget-minded folks would take a bus. The YouTube guy talked about "experience" and "nostalgia" which suggests a retired people or a one-time trip. Not primary transportation. Not many repeat riders? Not a growth market?
387 miles. The Crescent manages this trip in 5:45 on a shorter route (287 miles), but with late night arrivals and departures from Greensboro. The Carolinian makes more stops on its 7:52 trip. More reasons to have a Day Crescent, ATL to DC.
;
Hell DC to Greensboro on the highway can be 7 hours to Richmond, such is the reliability of I-95 and traffic.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I have watched this video twice.
The comment about the service really jumped out at me: Not good, not bad! This is hardly what a highly competitive service organization would accept.
State Supported Train Statistics according to Amtrak:
It would be interesting to know how many of the first time riders come back.
Clearly, the stats would differ from route to route, but based on my experiences on the Pennsylvanian - I have ridden it twice a year for the last 13 years, they appear representative of what one would find on the Carolinian.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
PJS1The comment about the service really jumped out at me: Not good, not bad! This is hardly what a highly competitive service organization would accept.
But what are his standards for service? Some people like to have their hindquarters kissed, and others like to be left alone.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I believe there IS a future for long-distance passenger service. But it has to be on this basis:
Going somewhere? Take the train and have a mini-vacation.
And 30% voted that the would take the train. You have to start somewhere!
But the total package has to live up to this goal.
On another thread, I proposed a way of improving on-board meal service and reducing or eliminating the food deficit my making such service part of a network of station restaurantes with (and this is important) regular take-out service possibly including home delivery.
I think there may also be a way of making sleeping-car service and maybe even parlor car (today business class?) service part of a network hotel service.
Amtrak can continue to provide basic transportation, but everything above that on trains is really part of the hospitality industry, not the transportation industry.
That is my positive approach to the problem.
zugmann PJS1 The comment about the service really jumped out at me: Not good, not bad! This is hardly what a highly competitive service organization would accept. But what are his standards for service? Some people like to have their hindquarters kissed, and others like to be left alone.
True!
A person's expectations will determine in part his rating of the service received. But a first class, customer oriented organzation, would want to know why someone rated his experience not good, not bad! It is damning with faint praise at best.
My experiences on Amtrak have varied. They have some really good, customer oriented service personnel. But they have some really bad ones too. And for a variety of reasons, apparently getting rid of the bad ones is nearly impossible.
I can relate to his experiences with the DC boarding processes. It is a zoo. But he missed the really good zoo times. By departing on a Friday or Sunday evening, or just before a holiday, is the best time to experience the zoo in all its glory. Been there, done that too many times.
PJS1 I can relate to his experiences with the DC boarding processes. It is a zoo. But he missed the really good zoo times. By departing on a Friday or Sunday evening, or just before a holiday, is the best time to experience the zoo in all its glory. Been there, done that too many times.
But he fully overlooks the zoo and worse that airports have become since 9/11, and that is in the best of times - throw in a little weather, virtually anywhere in the country and flights start getting delayed or cancelled. Zoo on steroids.
PJS1I can relate to his experiences with the DC boarding processes. It is a zoo. But he missed the really good zoo times.
Yeah, I was never a fan of the cattlecall boarding process, either.
daveklepper I proposed a way of improving on-board meal service and reducing or eliminating the food deficit my making such service part of a network of station restaurantes with (and this is important) regular take-out service possibly including home delivery. I think there may also be a way of making sleeping-car service and maybe even parlor car (today business class?) service part of a network hotel service. Amtrak can continue to provide basic transportation, but everything above that on trains is really part of the hospitality industry, not the transportation industry.
Most of your proposals are almost 70 years out of date. Parlor cars? Seriously? That might have gone well with Howard Johnson's and Fred Harvey's back about 1955 or earlier, but not today.
Amtrak's mission in its formative legislation was to provide transportation, not restaurant and hotel services, now called the hospitality business. If those services were of sufficient size and profitability, perhaps some corporation in that sector would jump in. But I doubt if there would be many takers, not without a huge, guaranteed subsidy and that would require new legislation.
BaltACD But he fully overlooks the zoo and worse that airports have become since 9/11, and that is in the best of times - throw in a little weather, virtually anywhere in the country and flights start getting delayed or cancelled. Zoo on steroids.
On a somewhat more serious note, if you travel more than a couple of times a year by commercial air, sign-up for TSA-Pre. I did a couple of years ago. As a result, I wiz through most airports, including the big city airports, with little fuss and muss.
I try to avoid Friday afternoons and Monday mornings, but even then TSA-Pre makes the process easier.
charlie hebdo Amtrak's mission in its formative legislation was to provide transportation, not restaurant and hotel services, now called the hospitality business. If those services were of sufficient size and profitability, perhaps some corporation in that sector would jump in.
America has some of the best if not the best colleges and universities in the world. Every year they turn out many intelligent, educated, talented graduates.
Included in the bunch are some of the best business schools on the planet. Many of their outstanding graduates work for venture capitalists, investment banks, major league consultants, etc. They are constantly looking for investment opportunities. If there were a viable market for station restaurants, hotels on wheels, etc., they would have developed them decades ago.
I won't disagree with the critics of my proposal, that if providing "moving hotels" on Amtrak trains could be made to be profitable, someone would make the investment. We will just have to see if anyone has responsed or will respond to Amtrak request for proposals.
Cerainly if Amtrak long distance is to survive as just a bare-bones just barely tolerable emergency way to get from here to there, it is doubtful that meal service will break even, let along earn some money. Then the best approach might be to combine with airline catering, which also has downgraded from elegance to survival.
We will just have to see what results from Amtrak's request for proposals.
And GM's management apparently thinks O'Toole is right. Northwistanding my own expectation that I will never ever enter to ride in a driverless car or taxi. Ever. Too many experiences with computer errors. A closed system like an airport people mover or a one-line transit system, completely segregated, with platform doors matching rolling-stock doors, basically an horizontal elevator, is something quite different than a highway with pedestrians and a mix a vehicles of different weights, sizes, and speeds and origins and destinations. And weather.
PJS1but even then TSA-Pre makes the process easier.
If most Americans traveled internationally they would see what a farce TSA really was. Complete joke that provides very little additional security, among the various flaws:
1. Not a very deep background check to become a TSA screener.
2. First Class, no problem, skip to the priority line your much less a security risk.
3. Flying into the states from say Mexico City? Why are you removing your clothes and luggage for? Put that stuff back on, we aren't as stupid as you Americans are.
4. Hey we got this great deal on Sudanese security guards to guard the Airport perimeter.......were saving tens of thousands of dollars with that contract. It's really not our business what is going on in their home country.
And so on...
daveklepperAnd GM's management apparently thinks O'Toole is right. Northwistanding my own expectation that I will never ever enter to ride in a driverless car or taxi. Ever. Too many experiences with computer errors. A closed system like an airport people mover or a one-line transit system, completely segregated, with platform doors matching rolling-stock doors, basically an horizontal elevator, is something quite different than a highway with pedestrians and a mix a vehicles of different weights, sizes, and speeds and origins and destinations. And weather.
The biggest impact of driverless cars in my view, will be the replacement of taxi cab drivers and the potential moderation in car for hire rates. The average family buying a driverless car? It's going to cost another large chunk of money to get that option and parts of it will really irritate American drivers as driverless technology is one size fits all for driving techniques. I have a Mercedes ML350 with most of that intelligent stuff built in. It's not really that high tech to read reflective road markings with whatever type of technology they use to do so. Mercedes went to those large Mercedes sign in the center grill of the car because that is where they hide the road reading technology (behind it).
It's nice at times, I like the attention assist which monitors my driving habits and tells me before I am even self aware that I am getting tired and my habits are indicating fatigue. I don't like the adaptive cruise control, every time someone pulls in front of you the car brakes to maintain a safe distance instead of slowly adjusting the gap (it's a waste of fuel in a way as well). The prohibition in the car's computer view of crossing a solid white line without using the turn signal is irritating and more than once I had to fight for control of the steering wheel.....the car will relent if you yank the wheel hard enough. The proximity to another vehicle alarm when you turn on the signal is a very nice feature that has saved me from an accident more than once because with cruise control now we have a lot of drivers that love to drive in blind spots of other drivers and do so like it's not their fault if they are not seen. Anyhow.....point is that some of these features are going to pizz off behind the wheel control freaks or the anger management folks. So I am not sure that everyone will remain on driverless mode for the whole trip or even at all. Another part that has startled me is the car braking by itself if it senses your not doing a good enough job. A few times it has put on fairly hard brake applications that startled me because I thought I was maintaining a safe distance with my braking.......with passengers, it makes you look like your overly nervous behind the wheel at times and I find myself having to explain sometimes...."that was the car, that wasn't me".
Oh and General Motors Management leans heavily towards the range of mistake prone. I would not rely on them at all for predicting the future for anything. Your much better off finding an old lady in a local carnival with a Crystal Ball.
Like automation of freight railroad operation, I am all for all the assistance that computers can give, but there should remain the possibility of driver or engineer over-runling the computers when circumsances demand such .intervention.
If I should rent a car in the future, I would want that possibility.
As for GM, I'm amused that this policy comes on-line just as GM has finally penetrated the Israeli market, with Chevrolets (and Fords) seen as frequently as Toyotas and Nissans, and Volvos and Dafs, etc. I doubt that any of the Chevies I see and sometimes ride (Savanas are popular) are made in the USA, though. Or the Fords, for that matter.
And I conltinue to believe that long freight trains on a typical North American railroad line should not have less than a two-man crew. The length break-point would depend on the topography and kind of service, but generally anything longer than 25 or 30 cars, anything more than 1200 or 1500 feet. I don't claim to be an expert, but even if electronic braking and self-diagnosting freightcars become standard, there are just too many possible unplanned events to make one-man operation good sense in my opinion.
Another question that can be asked: For those dissatisfied with current Amtrak service and food, how much more would you be willing to pay for hospitality-industry-level service, equal to that in a good hotel?
This would be a total package, including boading of course.
Not to change the subject, but most American cars built for export are built in Canada. They have Dafs in Israel? Trucks, right? Daf cars are long gone, bought by Volvo.
DAF was always predominantly a truck (and trailer, the original Dutch word being the 'A' in the acronym) builder. My remembrance of their most memorable automobile (the DAFfodil) was that it was the first vehicle I remember, from my childhood, being equipped with a CVT. Engine was "improved" from 22 to 30 horsepower, yielding a 0-60 time almost requiring a calendar.
I sold exercise treadmills using that type of transmission setup with only an order of magnitude fewer horsepower -- Fred Flintstone in reverse? (Speaking of which, the things were good for one good trick: they would top out exactly as fast in reverse as in forward...)
I note a comment is made thinking the idea of Parlor cars is "almost 70 years out of date". Please watch this travel review video to see what you can get with only $30 USD inside a business class cabin of a HSR in China. It's like a modern Parlor car. Note that the journey was recorded between two third-tier cities in a developing country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HdQeSB2ImY
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Jones1945 I note a comment is made thinking the idea of Parlor cars is "almost 70 years out of date". Please watch this travel review video to see what you can get with only $30 USD inside a business class cabin of a HSR in China. Note that the journey was recorded between two third-tier cities in a developing country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HdQeSB2ImY
I note a comment is made thinking the idea of Parlor cars is "almost 70 years out of date". Please watch this travel review video to see what you can get with only $30 USD inside a business class cabin of a HSR in China. Note that the journey was recorded between two third-tier cities in a developing country.
Apples and oranges. This is HSR on a short run. Parlor cars are an outdated concept from the Golden Era with much slower trains. And even in China, you notice that only a handful of seats are in the Business Class, compared to 1st and 2nd.
Jones1945I note a comment is made thinking the idea of Parlor cars is "almost 70 years out of date". Please watch this travel review video to see what you can get with only $30 USD inside a business class cabin of a HSR in China. Note that the journey was recorded between two third-tier cities in a developing country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HdQeSB2ImY
I wonder how much profit China is getting from their passenger rail network? Or do they view their passenger rail network as a SERVICE necessary for their population?
daveklepperAnother question that can be asked: For those dissatisfied with current Amtrak service and food, how much more would you be willing to pay for hospitality-industry-level service, equal to that in a good hotel? This would be a total package, including boading of course.
Dave check this out. Economy Sleeper from Dallas to Chicago RT is $550 if you buy it before yield management kicks in. I've paid as much as $750 for the same accomodation on the same route RT, the latter being a late ticket purchase the same month as the Holiday took place. Thats it......just $200 difference, on an airline the price difference would be substantially different and not a mere $200. So I am kind of curious is if that is the most Amtrak can hope for given their market or they are selling out of Sleeper Space too early and their yield management algorithums are set too low.
Anyways back to answer your question, I would be willing to pay 30-40% more for good food service on the train or to add to my ticket for excellent food. I would throw in an additional 10-15% more on top of that if they could get their sleeping car, cafe and coach attendents to be a lot more social and forthcomming. The initial meet and greet is nice but I never see the attendent after that except shortly before the train pulls into it's destination.
It's not that they are too busy, I have seen them sitting on their arse in their own compartment for extended periods of time waiting for someone to push the porter call button or else I spot them sitting in the non-passenger part of the cafe car eating and chatting with other crew members (why they can't carry their meals back to their compartment and increase their availability time says something about how they view the passenger and their jobs).
The Sleeping Car attendents are being paid to be highly available while the passengers are awake but good luck with finding one that actually is on a Superliner anywhere. Now they are somewhat busy making up all the beds in a Superliner but it takes a normal Hotel Housekeeping employee not more than 15 min to make up a full size hotel room after some has slept a night (former hotel night manager, also timed them at the Westin recently).......that is a huge amount of time to allow for a Superliner bedroom or Economy room which is smaller and everything is within arms reach. Now do the math and presume they make all the bedrooms up each night (which they don't about 30-40% of the passengers do it themselves if not more). Where are the Sleeping Car attendents spending the rest of their time? I know there used to be an Auto-Train sleeping car attendent on here and he will probably get upset reading this but it is what it is. Most Amtrak employees are there for the paycheck and their customer service if you get any at all ends at the very minimal that Amtrak requires.....and usually you have to wait in a long queue for that.
BaltACDI wonder how much profit China is getting from their passenger rail network? Or do they view their passenger rail network as a SERVICE necessary for their population?
Things in China happen because the Communist Party wants them to happen there isn't any real supply or demand there. So there is probably not a concept of profit and loss either and nobody is even tracking that as this is a state owned monopolistic enterprise with no competition.
I think their HSR system is way overbuilt and that level of construction would never happen in a Democratic country where people had a voice in where money was spent.
As to parlor car service, VIA's VIA 1 service was comfortable travel, even though the seats did not revolve as the seats in USA parlor cars did. My wife and I made use of thiis service on several trains between 1997 and 2008, riding at one time or another on all the lines of the Quebec-Windsor Corridor.. There was some choice in the meals and alcoholic beverages were provided for the mid-day and evening meals,
I understand that VIA 1 is now considered to be Business Class.
Johnny
PJS1 BaltACD But he fully overlooks the zoo and worse that airports have become since 9/11, and that is in the best of times - throw in a little weather, virtually anywhere in the country and flights start getting delayed or cancelled. Zoo on steroids. On a somewhat more serious note, if you travel more than a couple of times a year by commercial air, sign-up for TSA-Pre. I did a couple of years ago. As a result, I wiz through most airports, including the big city airports, with little fuss and muss. I try to avoid Friday afternoons and Monday mornings, but even then TSA-Pre makes the process easier.
As to sleeping car attendants, it is true that a Superliner attendant has a greater resposibility than a Pullamn porter had, what with the greater number of berths. But--today's attendants do not have to wrestle with a real mattress for a lower berth, nor bring ladders for uppers. If you are spending more than one night in a room, you use the same sheets each night. The attendants are to place clean sheets on the pads if you get off before the end of the run, and before the end of their runs. It used to be that the attendant would unfold the blankets and place them on the berth; now I have to do that, figuring out which is the long way for the balnkets.
Not all Pullman porters were as alert as they should have been. Fifty years ago, I rode from New Orleans to Kansas City on the KCS. About lunch time, we stopped at a place (I do not remember just which one). Having eaten lunch, I was back in my roomette. When we stopped, I went out to the vestibule and opened the upper part of door--and saw a lady looking up as though she wanted to board. The porter in charge was in the diner lounge, getting his lunch. I asked the lady if she had Pullman accommodations, and she said that she did. Thereupon, I boarded her, following the proper procedure, and put her into a roomette. When the porter came bak up, I told what I had done--and he said nothing. Perhaps the KCS conductor had spoken to him about his dereliction of duty? I later thought that I should have asked the conductor if he had spoken to the porter.
DeggestyNot all Pullman porters were as alert as they should have been.
This is true but I think if you cost adjust what Amtrak is paying now and look back the Pullman attendants had far less in the area of compensation and relied much more on tips. Additionally, their living conditions were not always equal to the passengers they had to attend to......as they are now. Pullman attendants rooms were tiny and stripped of most amenitites. Thats if they had a room.
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