Electroliner 1935BaltACD. First let me say that the B&O dining cars I rode on were well run and I enjoyed them. Your grandfather ran a great operation. When did he retire? A memorable experience that I had was one of my early jaunts from Cincinnati. A friend and I took the NYC's morning train to Toledo where we turned and caught the B&O's Cincinnatian back to Cincy. If you remember that was a beautiful train made of rebuit (in B&O's shops) heavy weight cars pulled by a streamlined pacific and it had an Observation, Lounge, Diner car on the end. My friend and I decided to have lunch therein and when we were done, our waiter brought us new clean napkins and two small siler bowls of warm water. I had no clue as to what this was but fortunatly my friend educated me about finger bowls. I was in a first class diner. As you worked Cincinnati, I wonder whether you ever worked Spring Grove? It was enjoyable to watch how smoothly the back up move of the trains were made switching between the CH&D route and Parkersburg=St Louis route. And in the Cincinnatian's obs car, the back up valve was in the car just to the right of the back door. So one had a birds eye view of the operation. As I understand it, there was one time though that the switchman threw the switch just a little too fast and caused a derailment. But the times I was there, it was quick. Train would start backing as soon as it stopped and scoot across Spring Grove ave to NA tower. Clear the switch, tower relines for the main, clears the signal and we go. Thats all gone now. They built a new direct connection so no BU move required. No B&O East of Cincy anymore.
A memorable experience that I had was one of my early jaunts from Cincinnati. A friend and I took the NYC's morning train to Toledo where we turned and caught the B&O's Cincinnatian back to Cincy. If you remember that was a beautiful train made of rebuit (in B&O's shops) heavy weight cars pulled by a streamlined pacific and it had an Observation, Lounge, Diner car on the end. My friend and I decided to have lunch therein and when we were done, our waiter brought us new clean napkins and two small siler bowls of warm water. I had no clue as to what this was but fortunatly my friend educated me about finger bowls. I was in a first class diner.
As you worked Cincinnati, I wonder whether you ever worked Spring Grove? It was enjoyable to watch how smoothly the back up move of the trains were made switching between the CH&D route and Parkersburg=St Louis route. And in the Cincinnatian's obs car, the back up valve was in the car just to the right of the back door. So one had a birds eye view of the operation. As I understand it, there was one time though that the switchman threw the switch just a little too fast and caused a derailment. But the times I was there, it was quick. Train would start backing as soon as it stopped and scoot across Spring Grove ave to NA tower. Clear the switch, tower relines for the main, clears the signal and we go. Thats all gone now. They built a new direct connection so no BU move required. No B&O East of Cincy anymore.
My Grandfather was Superintendent of the Dining Car Dept. from 1937 to 1957.
My working in Cincinnati consisted of working the Train Order Operator's position at Storrs Jct. where the B&O controlled entrance to Cincinnati Union Terminal for both the B&O and the NYC. Hand throw switches were handled by a Trainman Switch Tender that performed his duties at the direction of the Operator.
I also worked the Switch Tenders position at a point known as 8th Street. This area was the comingled leads to all the B&O Yards in downtown Cincinnati - Brighton, Mill Creek, Yard A as well as a small industrial yard I have forgoten the name of. The Southern also accessed the B&O and NYC through this mess of switches and routes. All routes were lined at the direction of the Train Order Operator at Cincinnati Jct. All that was done away with in the construction of Queensgate Yard.
All the operator positions in Cincinnati were on the St. Louis Division ORT roster, except Cincinnati Jct which was on the Toledo Division roster. While the Cincinnati area Operators were on the St. Louis Division roster they reported to the Cincinnati Terminals' Division Operator.
Got to ride the Cincinnatian one time from Deshler to Cincinnati and recall the back up move. All B&O Observation cars were equipped with air brake valves for back up moves. All trains into Washington Union Station backed in from F Tower or QN Tower as necessary. The MARC trains today operate in Push-Pull and the Cab Car is the end that goes into the terminal first, keeping the noise and fumes of the locomotive away from the head house.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD. First let me say that the B&O dining cars I rode on were well run and I enjoyed them. Your grandfather ran a great operation. When did he retire?
243129 Quite a cheering section you have here. All that 'experience' and you see no violations on that you tube video. I guess my career pales in comparison to yours. My 51 years was in only one job, in the trenches exclusively in engine service.
Quite a cheering section you have here. All that 'experience' and you see no violations on that you tube video.
I guess my career pales in comparison to yours. My 51 years was in only one job, in the trenches exclusively in engine service.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
243129Why would an engineer want to become a dispatcher?
Working conditions and pay.
BaltACD 243129 Quite a cheering section you have here. All that 'experience' and you see no violations on that you tube video. I guess my career pales in comparison to yours. My 51 years was in only one job, in the trenches exclusively in engine service. Observation from my experience - Engineers on their engines always figured they were the best Dispatchers in the world 'for their train'. When they faced their fears and went through the process to actually become Dispatchers - their outlook changed 180 degrees and the began to understand how stupid their prior rants were. Experience is a funny teacher, and when all your experience is in a tiny element of 'the big picture' you end up with a obstructed view of the 'big picture'. Just because something was done one way at a particular location, doesn't mean it will be done that same way at ALL locations. I might add that my Grandfather retired with almost 48 years service and retired as the Supentendent of the B&O Dining Car Dept. My Father retired after 37 years as Asst. General Manager Western Region of the B&O. I was taught railroading from the time I could walk and talk.
Observation from my experience -
Engineers on their engines always figured they were the best Dispatchers in the world 'for their train'.
When they faced their fears and went through the process to actually become Dispatchers - their outlook changed 180 degrees and the began to understand how stupid their prior rants were. Experience is a funny teacher, and when all your experience is in a tiny element of 'the big picture' you end up with a obstructed view of the 'big picture'. Just because something was done one way at a particular location, doesn't mean it will be done that same way at ALL locations.
I might add that my Grandfather retired with almost 48 years service and retired as the Supentendent of the B&O Dining Car Dept. My Father retired after 37 years as Asst. General Manager Western Region of the B&O. I was taught railroading from the time I could walk and talk.
So with this wealth of experience you say you possess you cannot find any rules violations on that amateur video on the other thread?
Yes I agree sitting in a temperature controlled office looking at a model board gives you a truer picture of operations than those of us in the trenches actually experiencing it.
Why would an engineer want to become a dispatcher?
243129Quite a cheering section you have here. All that 'experience' and you see no violations on that you tube video. I guess my career pales in comparison to yours. My 51 years was in only one job, in the trenches exclusively in engine service.
charlie hebdo Are Amtrak's human error problems and accidents mostly a consequence of non-adherence to rules, ignorance (of aforementioned rules) or something else: undiagnosed medical issues, boredom, drugs, inadequate training?
Are Amtrak's human error problems and accidents mostly a consequence of non-adherence to rules, ignorance (of aforementioned rules) or something else: undiagnosed medical issues, boredom, drugs, inadequate training?
Mostly inadequate training.
SD70Dude Deggesty Murphy Siding BaltACD 243129 What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX? Train Order Operator, Wire Chief, Train Dispatcher, Asst. to the Trainmaster, Asst. Terminal Trainmaster, Trainmaster, Asst. Manager Terminal Services Center, Systems Anaylist for Computerized Yard Operations and Chief Train Dispatcher over a 51.5 year career. Also attended schools for locomotive and air brake operations to be utilized if needed during periods of a Labor strike while I was a company official.
Deggesty Murphy Siding BaltACD 243129 What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX? Train Order Operator, Wire Chief, Train Dispatcher, Asst. to the Trainmaster, Asst. Terminal Trainmaster, Trainmaster, Asst. Manager Terminal Services Center, Systems Anaylist for Computerized Yard Operations and Chief Train Dispatcher over a 51.5 year career. Also attended schools for locomotive and air brake operations to be utilized if needed during periods of a Labor strike while I was a company official.
Murphy Siding BaltACD 243129 What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX? Train Order Operator, Wire Chief, Train Dispatcher, Asst. to the Trainmaster, Asst. Terminal Trainmaster, Trainmaster, Asst. Manager Terminal Services Center, Systems Anaylist for Computerized Yard Operations and Chief Train Dispatcher over a 51.5 year career. Also attended schools for locomotive and air brake operations to be utilized if needed during periods of a Labor strike while I was a company official.
BaltACD 243129 What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX? Train Order Operator, Wire Chief, Train Dispatcher, Asst. to the Trainmaster, Asst. Terminal Trainmaster, Trainmaster, Asst. Manager Terminal Services Center, Systems Anaylist for Computerized Yard Operations and Chief Train Dispatcher over a 51.5 year career. Also attended schools for locomotive and air brake operations to be utilized if needed during periods of a Labor strike while I was a company official.
243129 What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX?
What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX?
Train Order Operator, Wire Chief, Train Dispatcher, Asst. to the Trainmaster, Asst. Terminal Trainmaster, Trainmaster, Asst. Manager Terminal Services Center, Systems Anaylist for Computerized Yard Operations and Chief Train Dispatcher over a 51.5 year career. Also attended schools for locomotive and air brake operations to be utilized if needed during periods of a Labor strike while I was a company official.
And what rail-related positions have YOU held "243129"?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Johnny
243129 BaltACD There is a heirarcy to railroad rules. While they are written in blood, they are not cast in stone. In specific instances rules in the rule book may be modified by Timetable Special Instructions - necessary to accomidate continued operation in light of specific physical characteristcs at at a specific location. Superintendent's Bulletins can annul and/or change rules and/or Timetable Special Instructions as well as set procedures on their own. Train Messages (known as Train Orders in a bygone time) can modify or change both Rules and/or Timetable Special Instructions as well as communicate other necessities of railroad operation. TTSI and Train Messages that in some way change or modify rules that exist in the Rule Book must be approved by members of the Rules Committe who are responsibile for the integrety of the Rule Book. Thus preventing some Superintendent (may be called Division Manager or some other term) or Train Dispatcher from thinking they can write rules on the fly. Operating Rules are dynamic - they change as conditions require their change, in many cases locking the barn door after the prized animal has escaped. With the increasing involvement of lawyers, the rules have become exercises in 'gotcha' writing. What craft and what official positions did you occupy at CSX?
BaltACD There is a heirarcy to railroad rules. While they are written in blood, they are not cast in stone. In specific instances rules in the rule book may be modified by Timetable Special Instructions - necessary to accomidate continued operation in light of specific physical characteristcs at at a specific location. Superintendent's Bulletins can annul and/or change rules and/or Timetable Special Instructions as well as set procedures on their own. Train Messages (known as Train Orders in a bygone time) can modify or change both Rules and/or Timetable Special Instructions as well as communicate other necessities of railroad operation. TTSI and Train Messages that in some way change or modify rules that exist in the Rule Book must be approved by members of the Rules Committe who are responsibile for the integrety of the Rule Book. Thus preventing some Superintendent (may be called Division Manager or some other term) or Train Dispatcher from thinking they can write rules on the fly. Operating Rules are dynamic - they change as conditions require their change, in many cases locking the barn door after the prized animal has escaped. With the increasing involvement of lawyers, the rules have become exercises in 'gotcha' writing.
There is a heirarcy to railroad rules. While they are written in blood, they are not cast in stone.
In specific instances rules in the rule book may be modified by Timetable Special Instructions - necessary to accomidate continued operation in light of specific physical characteristcs at at a specific location.
Superintendent's Bulletins can annul and/or change rules and/or Timetable Special Instructions as well as set procedures on their own.
Train Messages (known as Train Orders in a bygone time) can modify or change both Rules and/or Timetable Special Instructions as well as communicate other necessities of railroad operation.
TTSI and Train Messages that in some way change or modify rules that exist in the Rule Book must be approved by members of the Rules Committe who are responsibile for the integrety of the Rule Book. Thus preventing some Superintendent (may be called Division Manager or some other term) or Train Dispatcher from thinking they can write rules on the fly.
Operating Rules are dynamic - they change as conditions require their change, in many cases locking the barn door after the prized animal has escaped. With the increasing involvement of lawyers, the rules have become exercises in 'gotcha' writing.
---
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Production Editor, Trains Magazine
Is it possible that the powers that be at Amtrak are hoping that PTC will fix a lot of their shortcomings, so they are sitting on their hands waiting for magic to happen?
Zug has a valid point. In the past, we've had several members (Ed Blysard was good at this) cite the appropriate rules that would apply in the situation under discussion. I learned a few things that way just from following the thread.
OvermodBink!
maybe amtrak trainees need to drink more root beer.
Ok, I'll get serious for the rest of you (not the OP since he can't see me), but when there is an incident of rules being broken, instead of just glossing over it, why not discuss the specifics of the rules being broken? Does Amtrak do that? Like the discipline letters say: "consider this a learning opportunity". So is that opportunity utilized, or allowed to be lost?
That's why I was asking about the supposed rule violations in another thread. It's easy to sit back from the comfort of our computer screen and say "they're breaking the rules". Anyone can do that, even if they aren't correct. A discussion of which rules were violated, how they were violated, and why were they violated helps us all. knowledge is power, and information is golden. I doubt we will ever get to the point of being 100% prefect. So make something positive out of the negative.
I'm being serious and on-topic. All before 6am. Miracles do happen.
zugmannThat's it - you're invisible!
Bink! <does imitation of CRT television shutting off>
OvermodOH CRAP! I didn't!
That's it - you're invisible!
zugmannThat whole post has NOTHING to do with the subject. I hope you got a signed permission form from the moderators and from the OP to post that!
OH CRAP! I didn't!
Hope this doesn't put me on moderation. I'd hate to lose that edit button. And oh! the irony!
(But seriously: can we get back to discussing what Amtrak might do to fix its training problems?)
SD70DudeShould we start a thread on that?
Yes. Yes we should.
Besides, aren't you guys a little old to be worried about natural thread drift?
OvermodExcept for that little niggling thing called the TOS. Which clearly states (it's the first item on the list for 'forums', in fact) "please keep discussions on topic". You can argue that rules don't apply to you if you want to have fun drifting a thread. But that doesn't make it right, and doesn't excuse that it's a violation of the site owner's printed rules. We've had this discussion in the past (I believe in one instance when poster Juniatha was having off-topic posts deleted from some of her threads). My opinion on this really hasn't changed since then, which is if the OP doesn't want the thread to drift, that should be respected. (In other words, if you don't like the topic as posted, don't reply to it and let it die a natural death as it falls off the first page). I don't mind my posts being drifted, and I often (although sometimes quite unintentionally) cause drifts or diversions, but I think it is fair to allow the OP the choice of whether or not to tolerate illegal thread drift, and if they object to it, for me to refrain from drifting it rather than try to gin up excuses for what, let's face it, is an explicit TOS violation. Not to be excessively hypocritical, I was a willing and somewhat enthusiastic participant in the 'root beer' meme -- the idea being that if the community thought a particular thread was being carried on 'improperly' they could vote their conscience by discussing the various charms and characteristics of root beer, a somewhat less snarky approach than posting the 'song that doesn't end' video or similarly pointed comments. Unfortunately root beer is just as off-topic as any other off-topic digression... Can someone explain to me why 'put on your big-boy pants' was not supposed to be an ad-hominem, but the response to it was? C'mon you guys, you're all better than that. (And I think the OP's topic is important enough not to marginalize; if we're going to get into air-traffic control, we need to look at things like 'are there aspects to air-traffic control training that might help re-instill the right kind of professional discipline and respect for experience that current Amtrak training so obviously lacks')
That whole post has NOTHING to do with the subject. I hope you got a signed permission form from the moderators and from the OP to post that!
(Joking...) Sorry. Just had to.
YoHo1975A topic in which the starter exerts significant control is called a blog. Trains.com does not offer that to forum members. So these are forum posts and will wander where they will.
Except for that little niggling thing called the TOS. Which clearly states (it's the first item on the list for 'forums', in fact) "please keep discussions on topic".
You can argue that rules don't apply to you if you want to have fun drifting a thread. But that doesn't make it right, and doesn't excuse that it's a violation of the site owner's printed rules.
We've had this discussion in the past (I believe in one instance when poster Juniatha was having off-topic posts deleted from some of her threads). My opinion on this really hasn't changed since then, which is if the OP doesn't want the thread to drift, that should be respected. (In other words, if you don't like the topic as posted, don't reply to it and let it die a natural death as it falls off the first page). I don't mind my posts being drifted, and I often (although sometimes quite unintentionally) cause drifts or diversions, but I think it is fair to allow the OP the choice of whether or not to tolerate illegal thread drift, and if they object to it, for me to refrain from drifting it rather than try to gin up excuses for what, let's face it, is an explicit TOS violation.
Not to be excessively hypocritical, I was a willing and somewhat enthusiastic participant in the 'root beer' meme -- the idea being that if the community thought a particular thread was being carried on 'improperly' they could vote their conscience by discussing the various charms and characteristics of root beer, a somewhat less snarky approach than posting the 'song that doesn't end' video or similarly pointed comments. Unfortunately root beer is just as off-topic as any other off-topic digression...
Can someone explain to me why 'put on your big-boy pants' was not supposed to be an ad-hominem, but the response to it was? C'mon you guys, you're all better than that. (And I think the OP's topic is important enough not to marginalize; if we're going to get into air-traffic control, we need to look at things like 'are there aspects to air-traffic control training that might help re-instill the right kind of professional discipline and respect for experience that current Amtrak training so obviously lacks')
SD70Dude zugmann This thread is awesome. Should we start a thread on that?
zugmann This thread is awesome.
This thread is awesome.
Should we start a thread on that?
I dunno. Somebody might wanna change the subject.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
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