Amtrak portrays a clear and present danger to the traveling public with their inadequate vetting and training procedures and nowhere is it more evident than in the recent rash of operator error disasters. How many more lives will be lost due to the arrogance of Amtrak management who historically have ignored input from their now dwindling veteran operations workforce? If one were to quiz today’s operations employees one would be astounded at what they don’t know. The warning signs have been there and Amtrak has paid no heed despite repeated pleas from their veteran workforce to examine and revamp their training regimen. Here are some of the warning signs Amtrak ignored:
June 3, 2011 Amtrak train collides with Chicago Metra train 12 hurt.
October 13, 2011 Amtrak San Joaquin collides with Coast Starlight 17 injured.
November, 2013 Amtrak had a New York to Washington Regional train accept the wrong route and wander six miles in the wrong direction to the end of the line on a foreign railroad.
May 12, 2015 Amtrak train 188 derails due to excessive speed 8 killed, 200 injured.
April 3, 2016 Amtrak train hits company backhoe killing 2 and injuring 39.
July 6, 2016 Amtrak train arrives Charlottesville 1 hour and 45 minutes late after accepting wrong route towards Richmond.
December 12, 2017 Amtrak Cascades train 501 derails killing 3 and injuring 77.
All of the above are attributed to human error yet Amtrak still made no changes to it’s vetting and training procedures. The public outcry for Positive Train Control is not the be all to end all. It creates dependency and erodes what skills the engineer (operator) might possess. Positive Train Control can and will fail and a good percentage of engineers will become ‘lost’. Couple that with Amtrak’s inadequate vetting and training procedures and you have a prescription for disaster, a ‘perfect storm’ if you will. Nothing precludes proper training and Amtrak seems incapable of providing it. What will it take for Amtrak to review and assess it’s hiring and training procedures? More death and injuries? Amtrak is in dire need of oversight from experienced operations personnel. Something must be done soon or there will be more disasters.
I 'second' everything here, and there is much more he could have said that could be added.
The problems go beyond Amtrak, too.
If Amtrak has another 'incident' this year the media will be all over them like crazy and it won't end this time, it will be relentless.
They had a bad stretch around 1986-87 as well. Sure hope this gets fixed real quick
I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater.
While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies.
Overmod I 'second' everything here, and there is much more he could have said that could be added. The problems go beyond Amtrak, too.
I agree. Well beyond Amtrak proper.
charlie hebdo Overmod I 'second' everything here, and there is much more he could have said that could be added. The problems go beyond Amtrak, too. I agree. Well beyond Amtrak proper.
I would be interested to know in what way do you and Overmod feel that the problem goes "beyond Amtrak"?
Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality.
I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality.
As per the January 2, 2018 issue of the Los Angeles Times: "The United States racked up another sterling year for airline safety: Zero people died in crashes of commercial jets on U.S. soil in 2017, for the fourth year in a row."
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Considering the limited number of trains they run compared to airline flights, it's a very poor safety record. It would be interesting to multiply Amtrak's trains to the frequency of the airlines, to see what sort of number of crashes the airlines would have to have to equal Amtrak's accidents.
If airports had grade crossings ? ? ? There are a few that do with very heavy mechanical and human protection ! ! Now we need to get the same for Amtrak and other RRs .
blue streak 1If airports had grade crossings ? ? ? There are a few that do with very heavy mechanical and human protection ! ! Now we need to get the same for Amtrak and other RRs .
Gibralter International
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Dakguy201I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies.
Air space gives you multiple moves to avoid a conflict or crash and you can pretty much act independently without another persons intervention. Flexibility which you do not have on a fixed pair of rails.
CMStPnP Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies. Air space gives you multiple moves to avoid a conflict or crash and you can pretty much act independently without another persons intervention. Flexibility which you do not have on a fixed pair of rails.
Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies.
With rail, directionality is determined for you. With flight, direction and altitude are controlled by the pilot. If the power totally fails with a train, you simply come to a stop. With a plane, look out below!
Among the 'new' dispatchers CSX hired over the past decade or more, many were former military air traffic controllers. By an large their comments were that Dispatching a railroad was much tougher than controlling air traffic - the playing field in the railroad couldn't be changed upon the controllers 'demand'.
BaltACD CMStPnP Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies. Air space gives you multiple moves to avoid a conflict or crash and you can pretty much act independently without another persons intervention. Flexibility which you do not have on a fixed pair of rails. Among the 'new' dispatchers CSX hired over the past decade or more, many were former military air traffic controllers. By an large their comments were that Dispatching a railroad was much tougher than controlling air traffic - the playing field in the railroad couldn't be changed upon the controllers 'demand'.
Military ATC's work and stress levels cannot be compared to that of federal ones.
charlie hebdo BaltACD CMStPnP Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies. Air space gives you multiple moves to avoid a conflict or crash and you can pretty much act independently without another persons intervention. Flexibility which you do not have on a fixed pair of rails. Among the 'new' dispatchers CSX hired over the past decade or more, many were former military air traffic controllers. By an large their comments were that Dispatching a railroad was much tougher than controlling air traffic - the playing field in the railroad couldn't be changed upon the controllers 'demand'. Military ATC's work and stress levels cannot be compared to that of federal ones.
Civilian ATC's seem to stick with their positions or jump into a bottle or the funny farm. From my observed CSX experience, they do not come to railroads looking for jobs as Train Dispatchers. Military ATC's, when discharged are looking for a job.
There's a book out, memoirs of a MILW RD train dispatcher titled, "Trains don't Fly." He said the MILW hired some former air traffic controllers that had been fired by President Reagan. The title comes from an episode when he was training a former controller to become a train dispatcher. The former controller instructed a train to increase it's altitude, that's when he told the trainee that train's don't fly.
Jeff
Civilian ATC persons from the major facilities such as SO CAL, Houston, ATL. Washinton, NY, Boston, CHI, etc work much higher stress levels than almost any military ATC person except those few in combat areas. But they do get to take long breaks. They also work in tn tandem with another person usually one with some less experience.
243129 charlie hebdo Overmod I 'second' everything here, and there is much more he could have said that could be added. The problems go beyond Amtrak, too. I agree. Well beyond Amtrak proper. I would be interested to know in what way do you and Overmod feel that the problem goes "beyond Amtrak"?
243129, Your question about how the problem goes beyond Amtrak has not been addressed.
The problem that you detail as the subject of your first post here is about Amtrak. I don't see how it goes "beyond Amtrak."
I'll explain more when I get back to broadband and off a phone.
Part of the issue is precisely that Amtrak is using 'non-Amtrak' outsourcing, often it seems to companies with 'less than no' respect for the historical ways railroaders have trained, for very critical parts of their engineer training and 'orientation'. And that this becomes vastly more important when the last cohorts of 'old heads' are no longer listened to for reality checks.
Overmod I'll explain more when I get back to broadband and off a phone. Part of the issue is precisely that Amtrak is using 'non-Amtrak' outsourcing, often it seems to companies with 'less than no' respect for the historical ways railroaders have trained, for very critical parts of their engineer training and 'orientation'. And that this becomes vastly more important when the last cohorts of 'old heads' are no longer listened to for reality checks.
Very well put.
With this sideshow we have in D.C. masquerading as an administration it is virtually impossible to gain a platform with which to appeal to the appropriate government agencies, the traveling public and Amtrak management. I have emailed Richard Anderson three times pleading with him to create an oversight committee for hiring (vetting), training and railroad operations. Three times I have been ignored. It seems to me that Amtrak does not care.
Another place where the "problem" goes beyond just Amtrak is in those aspects of steam restoration or excursion operation where the kinds of wise heads so easily available in the 1970s are now dying off, and a great many of their replacements are encountering all sorts of reinvent-the-wheel ... let's call them 'issues' when they fail to rise to Gettysburg-Railroad critical safety level, but not forget that when they involve swimming-pool-chemical mistakes or flatted drivers, there is only a difference of magnitude and not of quality with errors that might cost lives.
It took UP several very hard years, and I think some 'lessons learned', before they were able to implement their current TQM and source-documenting approach to steam restoration in the proper ways. Fortunately they had the appropriate VP-level championing (and from a VP expert in quality-control methodology, too) to make the outlay of corporate support and resources work, first for 844 and now for 4014. But this is an enormous effort above and beyond what 'traditional' large-locomotive steam people are used to using to get what they understand as appropriate repairs and restoration efforts done.
We are now seeing, in the 1309 saga, what happens when traditionalists get interrupted, then frustrated, then apparently fired en masse, and there is apparently no one competent to take up the reins. I won't invoke the ghost of 1361 (because that was largely a political priorities show, not just a political funding-release show, and there are still competent people working 'under the radar' on that engine) but I think we are feeling the lack of adequate training of the next generation of people to work safely and effectively on big steam ... the Strasburg programs help, but will they create even an effective cadre for the next 20+ years?
Quite frankly I am convinced that the only 'correct' solution for the Amtrak training disaster is to establish an actual training company, or consult directly with one, that will establish a documented and cost-effective package of training to be marketed to Amtrak. Which will include both the effective teaching of correct wisdom, and include the appropriate time and resources for new engineers to 'know the road' but also develop the right kinds of situational awareness that real engineers "used" to have and, rightly, value.
And then, if Amtrak keeps ignoring that, do the Lorenzo Coffin thing, go to the press and other avenues of 'mass education', and perhaps wangle an appointment to a position (Government or otherwise) with adequate 'clout' to get the necessary attitude adjustment deployed.
OvermodAnother place where the "problem" goes beyond just Amtrak is in those aspects of steam restoration or excursion operation where the kinds of wise heads so easily available in the 1970s are now dying off, and a great many of their replacements are encountering all sorts of reinvent-the-wheel ... let's call them 'issues' when they fail to rise to Gettysburg-Railroad critical safety level, but not forget that when they involve swimming-pool-chemical mistakes or flatted drivers, there is only a difference of magnitude and not of quality with errors that might cost lives. It took UP several very hard years, and I think some 'lessons learned', before they were able to implement their current TQM and source-documenting approach to steam restoration in the proper ways. Fortunately they had the appropriate VP-level championing (and from a VP expert in quality-control methodology, too) to make the outlay of corporate support and resources work, first for 844 and now for 4014. But this is an enormous effort above and beyond what 'traditional' large-locomotive steam people are used to using to get what they understand as appropriate repairs and restoration efforts done. We are now seeing, in the 1309 saga, what happens when traditionalists get interrupted, then frustrated, then apparently fired en masse, and there is apparently no one competent to take up the reins. I won't invoke the ghost of 1361 (because that was largely a political priorities show, not just a political funding-release show, and there are still competent people working 'under the radar' on that engine) but I think we are feeling the lack of adequate training of the next generation of people to work safely and effectively on big steam ... the Strasburg programs help, but will they create even an effective cadre for the next 20+ years? Quite frankly I am convinced that the only 'correct' solution for the Amtrak training disaster is to establish an actual training company, or consult directly with one, that will establish a documented and cost-effective package of training to be marketed to Amtrak. Which will include both the effective teaching of correct wisdom, and include the appropriate time and resources for new engineers to 'know the road' but also develop the right kinds of situational awareness that real engineers "used" to have and, rightly, value. And then, if Amtrak keeps ignoring that, do the Lorenzo Coffin thing, go to the press and other avenues of 'mass education', and perhaps wangle an appointment to a position (Government or otherwise) with adequate 'clout' to get the necessary attitude adjustment deployed.
The 21st Century version of training programs are designed to give the trainee the minimum level of competence so they don't kill themselves or others when they actually set foot on the 'live' railroad property.
Back in the day, that sufficed as those new hires would spend several years in OJT in subordinate positions - working day in and day out and learning from those experiences and from the interactions of the other membrs of they crew they worked with. If they did something wrong, or right for the wrong reason, it was brought to their attenetion in the form of a 'teaching moment'. After 3, 4 or 5 years - with their training and OJT experiences they were then ready to step up to the responsibility of becoming a Conductor or Engineer. (Note a similar path also existed for the other crafts that it takes to operate a railroad.) All that 'apprentice' OJT training no longer exists.
You go through training and upon 'graduation' you are a conductor - with the same responsibilities as the job has always had - but our 'graduate' has no REAL idea of what those responsibilities are; reason being that the training is still geared to see that they don't kill themselves or others in their first day of a 'live' railroad job.
21st Century railroading has eliminated all the previously existing 'apprentice' type jobs that conveyed the real world education to new employees - and as the current class of retirees pull the pin, there is little if any 'institutional knowledge' left to pull the newer employees through to a level of comptence.
When it comes to steam shops, the old heads that were knowldgeabe about steam came from a period of time where short cut band aid repairs where necessary to get the engine out of the shop and back on line pulling freight for WW II. The UP steam shop appears to be taking the tact that if they are going to 'rebuild' the engine they aren't going to use used parts, especially where access to a failure is virtually impossible in normal maintenance situations - that kind of thinking conflicts with the band aid mentality.
BaltACD21st Century railroading has eliminated all the previously existing 'apprentice' type jobs that conveyed the real world education to new employees - and as the current class of retirees pull the pin, there is little if any 'institutional knowledge' left to pull the newer employees through to a level of comptence.
That's why we have certifications. It's all on the employee now. After all, you are certified!
That's the problem with standardization in all kinds of training. Individuals aren't standard. There is no one-size fits all magic wand to make someone an engineer, conductor, dispatcher, trainmaster, etc. And the current system wants someone to be trained in a very short amount of time by people who are not trainers. Just because someone has spent 40 years behind the throttle doesn't mean he can teach. Many can't. And some guys that only have a few months logged in the seat can be much better teachers. Life's funny like that.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann BaltACD 21st Century railroading has eliminated all the previously existing 'apprentice' type jobs that conveyed the real world education to new employees - and as the current class of retirees pull the pin, there is little if any 'institutional knowledge' left to pull the newer employees through to a level of comptence. That's why we have certifications. It's all on the employee now. After all, you are certified! That's the problem with standardization in all kinds of training. Individuals aren't standard. There is no one-size fits all magic wand to make someone an engineer, conductor, dispatcher, trainmaster, etc. And the current system wants someone to be trained in a very short amount of time by people who are not trainers. Just because someone has spent 40 years behind the throttle doesn't mean he can teach. Many can't. And some guys that only have a few months logged in the seat can be much better teachers. Life's funny like that.
BaltACD 21st Century railroading has eliminated all the previously existing 'apprentice' type jobs that conveyed the real world education to new employees - and as the current class of retirees pull the pin, there is little if any 'institutional knowledge' left to pull the newer employees through to a level of comptence.
The physcial characteristics of the railroad change mile for mile as the cross the country - the 'trained response' for one particular location may well be the wrong response in a different location. Those differences don't get taught in classroom type training situations. One size does not fill all when it comes to railroad operations.
Having a piece of paper that says you are 'certified' is the attempt by the company's and the Fed's to put all responsibilities on the employees - it is in reality them disavowing their own responsibilities.
I agree with your assessment with the addition of: some guys that only have a few months logged in the seat are and should not be teachers.
Amtrak has a history of the unknowing teaching the unknowing who in turn are supervised by the unknowing.
Since 2011 I had been imploring Amtrak corporate officers, the Board of Directors, politicians and the news media stating that with the right combination of these recently trained individuals it could be a prescription for disaster, a 'perfect storm' if you will. They have ignored all warning signs of impending disasters. There was the incident in November 2013 of an inexperienced and obviously poorly trained crew wandering six miles in the wrong direction on a foreign railroad. Still Amtrak did not review it's training and qualification regimens. Then came Frankford Jct.
Amtrak still to this day has made no measurable changes in it's hiring, vetting and training procedures. It is just a matter of time before the next disaster.
blue streak 1 If airports had grade crossings ? ? ? There are a few that do with very heavy mechanical and human protection ! ! Now we need to get the same for Amtrak and other RRs .
OK, eliminate grade crossing accidents out of the equation, and the airlines still come out ahead.
charlie hebdo CMStPnP Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies. Air space gives you multiple moves to avoid a conflict or crash and you can pretty much act independently without another persons intervention. Flexibility which you do not have on a fixed pair of rails. With rail, directionality is determined for you. With flight, direction and altitude are controlled by the pilot. If the power totally fails with a train, you simply come to a stop. With a plane, look out below!
Yeah, it's apples and oranges. But both still involve moving passengers from Point A to Point B in environments that can be unforgiving.
Have you been both a military and FAA controller? Or is this just a guess on your part?
jeffhergert There's a book out, memoirs of a MILW RD train dispatcher titled, "Trains don't Fly." He said the MILW hired some former air traffic controllers that had been fired by President Reagan. The title comes from an episode when he was training a former controller to become a train dispatcher. The former controller instructed a train to increase it's altitude, that's when he told the trainee that train's don't fly. Jeff
Sounds like an interesting book. The author seems adept at embellishment.
BLS53 charlie hebdo BaltACD CMStPnP Dakguy201 I believe domestic US airlines just completed a year without a single passenger fatality. The railroads not so much, despite many fewer boardings or passenger miles. To my mind, that situation is the reverse of what I would expect as the perceived risk of flight seems so much greater. While some accidents are out of Amtrak's direct control as it seems likely with the latest switch mixup, it does not bode well for the future of passenger train travel should the traveling public come to understand where the real danger lies. Air space gives you multiple moves to avoid a conflict or crash and you can pretty much act independently without another persons intervention. Flexibility which you do not have on a fixed pair of rails. Among the 'new' dispatchers CSX hired over the past decade or more, many were former military air traffic controllers. By an large their comments were that Dispatching a railroad was much tougher than controlling air traffic - the playing field in the railroad couldn't be changed upon the controllers 'demand'. Military ATC's work and stress levels cannot be compared to that of federal ones. Have you been both a military and FAA controller? Or is this just a guess on your part?
Have you? No, I have been neither.
However, I knew a guy who started as a military ATC, who later became an FAA ATC after Reagan fired the PATCO workers. In conversation, he was quite clear that the workload (at least where he was in the Chicago area) was much higher than for military. Stress was also very high.
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