njrickfrommnAlso to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car.
He's an airplane guy. You won't convince him with 'the romance of the rails' particularly when he sees said romance is decidedly lacking in objective terms ... and its half-assed implementation might be costing taxpayers money perhaps far better used elsewhere.
Overmod njrickfrommn Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car. He's an airplane guy. You won't convince him with 'the romance of the rails' particularly when he sees said romance is decidedly lacking in objective terms ... and its half-assed implementation might be costing taxpayers money perhaps far better used elsewhere.
njrickfrommn Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car.
Run a nicely controlled study. Implement the privatized scheme on one LD train and compare the results of many metrics with a similar LD train with the conventional Amtrak food service. To make more equivalent, in both cases eliminate the inclusion of meals in the sleeper fare.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Overmod GERALD L MCFARLANE JR I've said it before and I'll say it again- market pricing. Serve real food, cooked onboard and charge the market price...trust me, if it's good, word will get around quickly, and you won't be losing any money on the service. The cars/staffing will pay for themselves, priced correctly and you can even turn a little profit. You have my attention. Break down for me, if you would, exactly how you define "market price" for a service that has the clientele, capital, and human-factors restrictions imposed by typical LD Amtrak operation (assume for this whatever combination of Heritage or new-construction diner and lounge equipment is practical for the route(s) involved) in such a way that 'you can even turn a little profit'. You might also indicate when, defined in months after introduction, you will get to that profitability. I sympathize with the idea, believe me I do. But until I see actual numbers that substantiate it, I have to wonder if all the other posters here, a few of whom have actual restaurant experience, know more about the situation. Once we get that far, we can discuss how to run this past Congress (and the other forces which will want to influence Congress) so that it is not perceived as elitist, and then how to implement it long-term in such a way that temporary adverse conditions don't cause discontinuation of the service. (In my experience very few restaurants in New York, a much better nominal market for food service, succeed more than 6 months before they are 'flipped' to the next set of owners, and this usually results in very random changes in food choices and quality...)
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR I've said it before and I'll say it again- market pricing. Serve real food, cooked onboard and charge the market price...trust me, if it's good, word will get around quickly, and you won't be losing any money on the service. The cars/staffing will pay for themselves, priced correctly and you can even turn a little profit.
You have my attention. Break down for me, if you would, exactly how you define "market price" for a service that has the clientele, capital, and human-factors restrictions imposed by typical LD Amtrak operation (assume for this whatever combination of Heritage or new-construction diner and lounge equipment is practical for the route(s) involved) in such a way that 'you can even turn a little profit'. You might also indicate when, defined in months after introduction, you will get to that profitability.
I sympathize with the idea, believe me I do. But until I see actual numbers that substantiate it, I have to wonder if all the other posters here, a few of whom have actual restaurant experience, know more about the situation.
Once we get that far, we can discuss how to run this past Congress (and the other forces which will want to influence Congress) so that it is not perceived as elitist, and then how to implement it long-term in such a way that temporary adverse conditions don't cause discontinuation of the service. (In my experience very few restaurants in New York, a much better nominal market for food service, succeed more than 6 months before they are 'flipped' to the next set of owners, and this usually results in very random changes in food choices and quality...)
I'd love to give you the numbers, presuming of course I could the current numbers out of Amtrak for the cost of provisions, salaries and average car maintenance. First off there would be no Heritage diners, all replaced with new builds(a twin-unit diner would be better imo, one car with all the kichen/storage equipment and a separate car for service in single level service, the Superliners could be as is[lower level kitchen/storage, upper seating)...keep in mind that under Claytor all Chefs went the Culinary school in NY, the food was actually cooked on board and you had much higher quality food, the problem was Amtrak never raised the prices after that. I never said it would up-market food, it would have to be more like 'national' sit-down restaruant type fare, but with menus designed for each LD train. I'm talking like a rolling Olive Garden, etc., etc.,....if they want to see it done, hell, put me in charge of Amtrak, I'm not afraid of a bunch of Congressman/Senators.
So I might mention that on Amazon if your a PRIME member you can watch some passenger train videos for free. Anyway I recently learned that on the Super Chief, Santa Fe did not employ the dining car employees, including the chef they were all employees of the Fred Harvey company. The Chefs were sourced from Germany and France according to the Micheal Gross narrated video. Santa Fe only provided the Dining Car and most of the Dining Car equipment. Likewise all of their sleeping cars were PULLMAN. Now I am not sure if there were run by the PULLMAN company or just purchased from PULLMAN and staffed by Santa Fe employees.
Another interesting item was the predecessor train to the Super Chief was the Extra Fare Santa Fe Delux........was limited to a MAX of only 36 passengers and was all First Class...........man, I would be curious what the "Total Fare" was for the Delux that had to cost an arm and a leg, a whole train's operational cost spread over just 36 passengers.........Chicago to LA?? Cha-Ching.
The Wiki article says the Deluxe ran 1911-17 and had a surcharge of $25 ($606.07 in today's money) one way. It carried 60 passengers.
Separately in Electrical West, Vol. 26 , a special round trip fare CHI-LA was mentioned as $72.50 + 18.50 for a lower berth. One way would have been $91.00/2 = $45.50 ($1103.05).
So possibly the fare was as low as $1709.12, likely higher.
That is not the "Deluxe", it is the "de Luxe" thank you very much!
Some of the worst examples of the wacky advertising of the period were used for the snob appeal. If you thought the hair style in 'Hardware Wars' was amusing, how's this for the peak of high-dollar couture"
And then there is this, how evocative of snobbery (and the reverse snobbery implied in the intentionally slipshod arts-n-crafts typography)
For some reason, I'm thinking the 36 people was the original Pennsylvania Special, the four-car train. And the staff (as on an ocean liner) was an appreciable fraction of the passenger count; it would be interesting and instructive to see exactly what it was, and how the instructions to the staff were worded in that era.
ACY In response to the original question, it will always be expensive. There may be effective measures to keep these expenses at some level of control, but they will always be there. * Interstate dining car service is regulated by the Food and Drug Administration --- not by State regulators. The general understanding is that FDA regulations are more stringent (and, of course, costly) than State regulations. * Workers on such cars will be required to be eligible for Railroad Retirement. Many (perhaps most) stationary restaurants don't pay for any retirement benefits other than Social Security. I understand this was a major contributing factor when an Amtrak/Contractor experiment failed in New York State several years ago, but I don't know the details. * Competent, reliable staff will not be retained unless the pay is considerably higher than that in a comparable stationary restaurant, because of the demands of the work schedule and conditions. These staff members must be accommodated with sleeping accommodations away from home on long trips, and that costs money. * Dining cars are expensive to construct and maintain because of their unique architecture and configuration. You don't just waltz into the Home Depot and buy off-the shelf components to put one together, or to maintain it. A competent and experienced repair crew must be available to provide service for this unique equipment. * A reliable source of supply is essential, meaning a comprehensive Commissary system and consistent resupply at whatever locations are appropriate. * A reliable source of potable water is absolutely essential. Amtrak has this. Any other operator would have to be sure it can get this from Amtrak or the host railroad. It costs money, no matter who provides it. * In addition to the costs enumerated above, there is the predictable cost of maintenance of the brakes, running gear, air conditioning, etc. associated with the operation of any railroad car. This far exceeds the normal cost of operating a stationary restaurant. I have only scratched the surface. If you think you can operate a dining car at a profit at less cost than Amtrak does under these conditions, have at it! Tom
In response to the original question, it will always be expensive. There may be effective measures to keep these expenses at some level of control, but they will always be there.
* Interstate dining car service is regulated by the Food and Drug Administration --- not by State regulators. The general understanding is that FDA regulations are more stringent (and, of course, costly) than State regulations.
* Workers on such cars will be required to be eligible for Railroad Retirement. Many (perhaps most) stationary restaurants don't pay for any retirement benefits other than Social Security. I understand this was a major contributing factor when an Amtrak/Contractor experiment failed in New York State several years ago, but I don't know the details.
* Competent, reliable staff will not be retained unless the pay is considerably higher than that in a comparable stationary restaurant, because of the demands of the work schedule and conditions. These staff members must be accommodated with sleeping accommodations away from home on long trips, and that costs money.
* Dining cars are expensive to construct and maintain because of their unique architecture and configuration. You don't just waltz into the Home Depot and buy off-the shelf components to put one together, or to maintain it. A competent and experienced repair crew must be available to provide service for this unique equipment.
* A reliable source of supply is essential, meaning a comprehensive Commissary system and consistent resupply at whatever locations are appropriate.
* A reliable source of potable water is absolutely essential. Amtrak has this. Any other operator would have to be sure it can get this from Amtrak or the host railroad. It costs money, no matter who provides it.
* In addition to the costs enumerated above, there is the predictable cost of maintenance of the brakes, running gear, air conditioning, etc. associated with the operation of any railroad car. This far exceeds the normal cost of operating a stationary restaurant.
I have only scratched the surface. If you think you can operate a dining car at a profit at less cost than Amtrak does under these conditions, have at it!
Tom
So, the traditional dining that was born in an era where the food had to be loaded at origin and the staff bunked on the train is dead. It's been dead for quite a while.
Sucessful food service on a train would have to look a good bit different. Maybe pre plated meals that are heated en-mass and served by car attendants or trainmen (why not? Flight attendents serve food....) No food prep on wheels. No chef on the car. No bunk space for dining car staff.
Food and commercial kitchens are everywhere. Leverage them.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Overmod That is not the "Deluxe", it is the "de Luxe" thank you very much! Some of the worst examples of the wacky advertising of the period were used for the snob appeal. If you thought the hair style in 'Hardware Wars' was amusing, how's this for the peak of high-dollar couture" And then there is this, how evocative of snobbery (and the reverse snobbery implied in the intentionally slipshod arts-n-crafts typography) For some reason, I'm thinking the 36 people was the original Pennsylvania Special, the four-car train. And the staff (as on an ocean liner) was an appreciable fraction of the passenger count; it would be interesting and instructive to see exactly what it was, and how the instructions to the staff were worded in that era.
Is that the dining car steward in the lower picture?
Johnny
The inflation calculator tells me that $25 extra fare in 1930 (I'm guessing that's the date) is about $361 today; of course that's in addition to the fare. I'll bet the fare plus the extra fare (in today's dollars) is about the same price as a first-class ticket on United from LA to Chicago.
I once read that the price of a subway ride in NYC for the last 50 or so years is almost always the price of a slice of pizza (currently $3). Maybe train fares work the same way.
I think the gentleman is supposed to represent a butler, a personage many riders of this train were used to have handling their bags. Notice how he radiates upper class snobbery. To try to be funny, don't you think he bears a small resemblance to Commodore Vanderbilt? But I'm certain he's not a railroad emplyee.
The ad is really attempting to give potential riders a sense of how they'll feel on such a de-Luxe train. Limiting the ridership is another way to denote exclusivity.
The ad with the way-out hair? No idea what that's trying to do. A failure of an advertisement, in my opinion.
DeggestyI had thought that the lady in the first picture was a representative of some who might be seen as the train New Mexico or Arizona, not a passenger.
No, that's the height of modern European fashion, deriving perhaps from Sezession and then Wiener Moderne and Loos -- note the heavy-lidded bored expression showing you that upper-crust ennui.
In a Fred Harvey car?
No, that's the American version of an English butler (Americans not understanding the peculiar relationship of people 'in service', they often went with really, really heavy-handed nouveau-riche snobbery instead, as evinced by that posture and facial expression. Sah! Ready to serve you, sah! Shall I tell Jeeves to pull the mo-tor around for the luggage?
NKP guyThe ad with the way-out hair? No idea what that's trying to do.
Stuff like this happens in many eras. Just not always associated with super-wealth...
The reference is here at 10:55 or so. (It is closely followed by our own Bucyrus explaining a plan in his ineffable style, interestingly enough.)
Overmod The reference is here at 10:55 or so. (It is closely followed by our own Bucyrus explaining a plan in his ineffable style, interestingly enough.)
Bravo - Youtube of the Galaxy!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
NKP guyThe inflation calculator tells me that $25 extra fare in 1930 (I'm guessing that's the date) is about $361 today; of course that's in addition to the fare. I'll bet the fare plus the extra fare (in today's dollars) is about the same price as a first-class ticket on United from LA to Chicago.
I calculated for the de Luxe in 1911, since that was the Santa Fe train in question. It ran from 1911-1917, discontinued after we entered WWI.
njrickfrommnBeing that Congressman Mica is a multi-millionare, I seriously doubt he'll ever live like the rest of 'us' citizens. Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car.
Your going to find in his case it is not income but rather Corporations willing to lend him private jets (which large companies do instead of campaign contributions).
CMStPnP njrickfrommn Being that Congressman Mica is a multi-millionare, I seriously doubt he'll ever live like the rest of 'us' citizens. Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car. Your going to find in his case it is not income but rather Corporations willing to lend him private jets (which large companies do instead of campaign contributions).
njrickfrommn Being that Congressman Mica is a multi-millionare, I seriously doubt he'll ever live like the rest of 'us' citizens. Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car.
Not being a lawyer, I'm not quite sure how to define that. Looks & smells like a form of bribery to me. What a shock!
ACYNot being a lawyer, I'm not quite sure how to define that. Looks & smells like a form of bribery to me. What a shock!
It's legal and commonly done with politicans and large clients.
Shouldn't be much of a surprise, those expensive business trains you see are not just for Railroad Executives, they are used to close large sales deals and entertain large clients as well. Thats also the justification used when the Board of Directors ask in a Board Meeting......"Why are you spending money on this?" Rarely are you going to hear a justification from a CEO that goes like this: "Thats so I can ride around the property in first class style".
Without a sleeper and some kind of dining facility, this boomer is NOT going to ride an overnight train (and I like trains). I had enough of sitting overnight in coach when I was younger and poorer, and I still get to have that miserable experience when I fly.
As has been mentioned, separating out dining as having to be somehow financially self-sustaining is ridiculous. What matters is the cost of operating the train. The micro-accounting can be anything that one wants it to be.
Business cars are frequentlly used for operating and track department
officials to inspect the railroad on a up front and close basis.
This is really their primary use. That's they were used on
my railroads.
nyc#25 Business cars are frequentlly used for operating and track department officials to inspect the railroad on a up front and close basis. This is really their primary use. That's they were used on my railroads.
Business jets are frequently used to transport executives and that is their primary purpose. However like railroad business cars their ancillary purposes fall under lobbying and entertaining clients. Have no idea what your railroads are but I am fairly confident that is true based on my observations. Also, referring to post-1980 not the Steam era.
Norfolk Southern and CSX - Traditional trips to Kentucky Dirby.
Union Pacific - Dispatched it's entire business train to Dallas so that Margot Perot could raise money for Presbyterian Hospital. Perot family involved in Alliance business park North of Fort Worth (was it a charity or lobbying?).
C&NW - No secret it used it's business trains inviting clients and VIP's aboard, especially when it hauled the Circus Train between Baraboo and Milwaukee.
Wisconsin and Southern - Likewise, many times used it's business cars to wine and dine state officials for more money to upgrade track.
More examples but made my point.
Yes the cars are used for enteretainment. However, their most
important funchtion is inspection of the property. You, obviously
are a railroad amature and have never worked in management
of a class one road.
nyc#25 Yes the cars are used for enteretainment. However, their most important funchtion is inspection of the property. You, obviously are a railroad amature and have never worked in management of a class one road.
OK, well, well not believing you on either point of "primary use" or "most important function". Though I would be confident the primary use was by railroad execuitves. So we'll have to leave it at that.............grumpy.
CMStPnP nyc#25 Yes the cars are used for enteretainment. However, their most important funchtion is inspection of the property. You, obviously are a railroad amature and have never worked in management of a class one road. OK, well, well not believing you on either point of "primary use" or "most important function". Though I would be confident the primary use was by railroad execuitves. So we'll have to leave it at that.............grumpy.
It's "all of the above". They are used for inspection trips, to get exec's rear ends out on the property, two wine and dine customers, to reward employees, etc, etc. Once you decide you are going to have them, you'd better use them everyway possible. They are expensive assets.
I just returned last week from riding City of New Orleans from Chicago to NO. Southbound, we had a choice of 2 cold sandwiches or a salad for dinner and lunch the next day. Did have a hot breakfast omelet. Northbound we did have hot meals, but I don't think they have a chef any longer, the meals are prepacked and heated. It was good, but some people were expecting the full service diner, not aware of the discussion about Amtrak stopping meals on some trains. I did travel in a Roomette and was entitled to the free meals, but it seemed like it was only other first class passengers eating, never saw anyone coming from coach. The meals are cheaper in the cafe car. Someday we probably won't even have a diner, just cafe cars. But whatever it takes to keep the trains running, just be prepared.
Heh, I wonder if you can use your smart phone to surf the internet and call and order ahead and just meet the carryout driver on the platform from the sleeping car exit. Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it. At longer 30 min stops, should be easy without permission at open platform stations but on the shorter stops......not so sure.
CMStPnP Heh, I wonder if you can use your smart phone to surf the internet and call and order ahead and just meet the carryout driver on the platform from the sleeping car exit. Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it. At longer 30 min stops, should be easy without permission at open platform stations but on the shorter stops......not so sure.
Not sure if that was sarcasm, but 30 minute stops? Modern railroads should be able to have a dwell time 10 minutes or less, generally 2-3 minutes. Might as well bring back the meal stop to use the station's Fred Harvey restaurant.
It's been done.
I've read accounts on the Amtrak Unlimited Forum by Forum members who have done it more than once. I don't remember which trains or which stations, but I understand there are a couple locations where local merchants are cooperative, and the practice is fairly common.
CMStPnP Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it.
Maybe if you buy him/her something, too?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Or we can do what was done in Honduras back in the '40's. At most stops the train was surrounded by vendors selling all kinds of eats and drinks, and you conducted business through the open windows.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington CMStPnP Heh, I wonder if you can use your smart phone to surf the internet and call and order ahead and just meet the carryout driver on the platform from the sleeping car exit. Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it. At longer 30 min stops, should be easy without permission at open platform stations but on the shorter stops......not so sure. Or we can do what was done in Honduras back in the '40's. At most stops the train was surrounded by vendors selling all kinds of eats and drinks, and you conducted business through the open windows.
And Amtrak windows open?
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