blue streak 1blue streak 1 wrote the following post 1 hours ago: face it . There are not enough locations on LD routes to support a restaurant for non rail patrons near any station that would be served by only 2 trains a day. Fred Harvey times are long gone.
I guess I should have used a sarcasm emoji or put it in brackets. Since Fred Harvey has been gone since 1968, it seemed obvious. Guess not.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
face it . There are not enough locations on LD routes to support a restaurant for non rail patrons near any station that would be served by only 2 trains a day. Fred Harvey times are long gone.
The rental of Amtrak dining cars would seem that there is not a good financial arrangement that would not harm one or both partys financially. Remember congress Amtrak haters are always in the wings/
The published figure of operating a passenger car of ~ $4.00 / mile means that for the Meteor's 1400 miles the rental would be $4200 for a 28 hour time. or 3 meals.
So if I get 100 passengers to eat 3 meals at $10 , 15 , & 20 my revenue will be $1500. 200 passengers ( fat chance ) $3000.00 so how do we rectify that ?
In South Africa...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
^^^ I'll give it a try the next time I ride the Texas Eagle and let you know how it turns out. I am sure the Sleeping Car Attendant would get a good chuckle out of it if it works........at least it would be somewhat entertaining.
CMStPnPHalf serious if dining car service gets really bad or not existent and Amtrak has 20-30 min stops throughout their schedules on LD trains...
The actual length of stop need not be any longer than that required to identify and transport the food aboard -- it's fun to consider a return to Fred Harvey eateries, but nobody is going to voluntarily go to sit-down or even cafeteria-line ordering in a credible train-stop interval, even one as long as the nighttime City of New Orleans stop in Memphis (where the locomotive often gets a drink of its own).
One approach that I would try would be to have either a known station official or a known and lockable location for meal 'deposit', to which the conductors or attendants have specific keys. Ordering 'windows' now become shifted very slightly forward, so they arrive a few minutes ahead of the 'tracked' train time if they are not going to meet it directly. I expect the "box" would be loaded at platform level and then be raised on scissor or 'manlift' jacks as needed for rapid gang loading. Put cameras in the box if there is any question about how the food looked, what its temperature was, etc. when dropped off, and have temperature-controlled sections for different categories of product.
You'd need an Uber-like ordering app, running on the onboard wireless or via public cell where available, or on internal devices or kiosks on the train. All the back-end code necessary to implement this sort of thing already exists, and even Bangalore programmers could adapt what needs to be adjusted. It's interesting to contemplate the profitability of such a thing extended to other forms of supply, for example to intercity or local buses or other mass transit. I have been developing a 'lite' version of it for a local application.
I suggested a while back, only partly tongue-in-cheek, that the old mail-crane method would work nicely for enroute provisioning. Any special permanent packaging like pizza 'hot boxes' could be designed or protected to be dropped off at some fixed zone for recovery, if it were inconvenient to have it returned to be dropped near or at specific stations. For many forms of food this would permit relatively quick access to many kinds of specialty or restricted-diet meal with very little effective prep requirement, holding time, or chance of wasted or lost food cost, while not restricting formal pickup areas to be at or close to established Amtrak stations. The method might also be adapted to commissary replenishment of quite a few things that would otherwise 'run short' or run out during travel between fixed commissary locations...
schlimmNot sure if that was sarcasm, but 30 minute stops? Modern railroads should be able to have a dwell time 10 minutes or less, generally 2-3 minutes. Might as well bring back the meal stop to use the station's Fred Harvey restaurant.
Half serious if dining car service gets really bad or not existent and Amtrak has 20-30 min stops throughout their schedules on LD trains. One of them at St. Louis I think runs for a bit they stick to 20 min in St. louis, Dallas they say 20 min but it usually runs over because the passengers meandering about. So at least I could get a decent breakfest in St. Louis if I time the order via GRUB HUB application and let them know in the comments it is time sensitive. They tell you in the GRUB HUB app what the approx delivery time is and they will wait up to 10 min for you. The risk of course is if the delivery person is late, they miss the train. Typically Amtrak is pretty reliable 40-60 min out from the station, rare to be delayed that close in my past experience with the St Louis stop........Chicago and DC always seem to have waiting delays inbound.
Yeah miss the open windows on the old German 2nd Class Cars, those were fun you could get half a body out that window....lol. Especially fun for the trains to and from Oktoberfest when they would race side by side in the same direction leaving the station or on approach. You can also hear the drunken singing on the other train.................not so fun when someone throws up out the window though.
BaltACD Paul of Covington Or we can do what was done in Honduras back in the '40's. At most stops the train was surrounded by vendors selling all kinds of eats and drinks, and you conducted business through the open windows. And Amtrak windows open?
Paul of Covington Or we can do what was done in Honduras back in the '40's. At most stops the train was surrounded by vendors selling all kinds of eats and drinks, and you conducted business through the open windows.
Or we can do what was done in Honduras back in the '40's. At most stops the train was surrounded by vendors selling all kinds of eats and drinks, and you conducted business through the open windows.
And Amtrak windows open?
They do if you apply the corollary to Oinie's Law ('If you push on anything hard enough, it will fall over')
It is closing them again after the purchase that poses the concern.
Paul of Covington CMStPnP Heh, I wonder if you can use your smart phone to surf the internet and call and order ahead and just meet the carryout driver on the platform from the sleeping car exit. Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it. At longer 30 min stops, should be easy without permission at open platform stations but on the shorter stops......not so sure. Or we can do what was done in Honduras back in the '40's. At most stops the train was surrounded by vendors selling all kinds of eats and drinks, and you conducted business through the open windows.
CMStPnP Heh, I wonder if you can use your smart phone to surf the internet and call and order ahead and just meet the carryout driver on the platform from the sleeping car exit. Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it. At longer 30 min stops, should be easy without permission at open platform stations but on the shorter stops......not so sure.
Heh, I wonder if you can use your smart phone to surf the internet and call and order ahead and just meet the carryout driver on the platform from the sleeping car exit. Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it. At longer 30 min stops, should be easy without permission at open platform stations but on the shorter stops......not so sure.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
CMStPnP Wonder if the car attendent would tolerate it.
Maybe if you buy him/her something, too?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
It's been done.
I've read accounts on the Amtrak Unlimited Forum by Forum members who have done it more than once. I don't remember which trains or which stations, but I understand there are a couple locations where local merchants are cooperative, and the practice is fairly common.
Tom
Not sure if that was sarcasm, but 30 minute stops? Modern railroads should be able to have a dwell time 10 minutes or less, generally 2-3 minutes. Might as well bring back the meal stop to use the station's Fred Harvey restaurant.
I just returned last week from riding City of New Orleans from Chicago to NO. Southbound, we had a choice of 2 cold sandwiches or a salad for dinner and lunch the next day. Did have a hot breakfast omelet. Northbound we did have hot meals, but I don't think they have a chef any longer, the meals are prepacked and heated. It was good, but some people were expecting the full service diner, not aware of the discussion about Amtrak stopping meals on some trains. I did travel in a Roomette and was entitled to the free meals, but it seemed like it was only other first class passengers eating, never saw anyone coming from coach. The meals are cheaper in the cafe car. Someday we probably won't even have a diner, just cafe cars. But whatever it takes to keep the trains running, just be prepared.
CMStPnP nyc#25 Yes the cars are used for enteretainment. However, their most important funchtion is inspection of the property. You, obviously are a railroad amature and have never worked in management of a class one road. OK, well, well not believing you on either point of "primary use" or "most important function". Though I would be confident the primary use was by railroad execuitves. So we'll have to leave it at that.............grumpy.
nyc#25 Yes the cars are used for enteretainment. However, their most important funchtion is inspection of the property. You, obviously are a railroad amature and have never worked in management of a class one road.
Yes the cars are used for enteretainment. However, their most
important funchtion is inspection of the property. You, obviously
are a railroad amature and have never worked in management
of a class one road.
OK, well, well not believing you on either point of "primary use" or "most important function". Though I would be confident the primary use was by railroad execuitves. So we'll have to leave it at that.............grumpy.
It's "all of the above". They are used for inspection trips, to get exec's rear ends out on the property, two wine and dine customers, to reward employees, etc, etc. Once you decide you are going to have them, you'd better use them everyway possible. They are expensive assets.
nyc#25 Business cars are frequentlly used for operating and track department officials to inspect the railroad on a up front and close basis. This is really their primary use. That's they were used on my railroads.
Business cars are frequentlly used for operating and track department
officials to inspect the railroad on a up front and close basis.
This is really their primary use. That's they were used on
my railroads.
Business jets are frequently used to transport executives and that is their primary purpose. However like railroad business cars their ancillary purposes fall under lobbying and entertaining clients. Have no idea what your railroads are but I am fairly confident that is true based on my observations. Also, referring to post-1980 not the Steam era.
Norfolk Southern and CSX - Traditional trips to Kentucky Dirby.
Union Pacific - Dispatched it's entire business train to Dallas so that Margot Perot could raise money for Presbyterian Hospital. Perot family involved in Alliance business park North of Fort Worth (was it a charity or lobbying?).
C&NW - No secret it used it's business trains inviting clients and VIP's aboard, especially when it hauled the Circus Train between Baraboo and Milwaukee.
Wisconsin and Southern - Likewise, many times used it's business cars to wine and dine state officials for more money to upgrade track.
More examples but made my point.
Without a sleeper and some kind of dining facility, this boomer is NOT going to ride an overnight train (and I like trains). I had enough of sitting overnight in coach when I was younger and poorer, and I still get to have that miserable experience when I fly.
As has been mentioned, separating out dining as having to be somehow financially self-sustaining is ridiculous. What matters is the cost of operating the train. The micro-accounting can be anything that one wants it to be.
ACYNot being a lawyer, I'm not quite sure how to define that. Looks & smells like a form of bribery to me. What a shock!
It's legal and commonly done with politicans and large clients.
Shouldn't be much of a surprise, those expensive business trains you see are not just for Railroad Executives, they are used to close large sales deals and entertain large clients as well. Thats also the justification used when the Board of Directors ask in a Board Meeting......"Why are you spending money on this?" Rarely are you going to hear a justification from a CEO that goes like this: "Thats so I can ride around the property in first class style".
CMStPnP njrickfrommn Being that Congressman Mica is a multi-millionare, I seriously doubt he'll ever live like the rest of 'us' citizens. Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car. Your going to find in his case it is not income but rather Corporations willing to lend him private jets (which large companies do instead of campaign contributions).
njrickfrommn Being that Congressman Mica is a multi-millionare, I seriously doubt he'll ever live like the rest of 'us' citizens. Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car.
Your going to find in his case it is not income but rather Corporations willing to lend him private jets (which large companies do instead of campaign contributions).
Not being a lawyer, I'm not quite sure how to define that. Looks & smells like a form of bribery to me. What a shock!
njrickfrommnBeing that Congressman Mica is a multi-millionare, I seriously doubt he'll ever live like the rest of 'us' citizens. Also to note, I seriously doubt Congressman Mica has ever riden a LD train or eaten in the dining car.
NKP guyThe inflation calculator tells me that $25 extra fare in 1930 (I'm guessing that's the date) is about $361 today; of course that's in addition to the fare. I'll bet the fare plus the extra fare (in today's dollars) is about the same price as a first-class ticket on United from LA to Chicago.
I calculated for the de Luxe in 1911, since that was the Santa Fe train in question. It ran from 1911-1917, discontinued after we entered WWI.
Overmod The reference is here at 10:55 or so. (It is closely followed by our own Bucyrus explaining a plan in his ineffable style, interestingly enough.)
The reference is here at 10:55 or so. (It is closely followed by our own Bucyrus explaining a plan in his ineffable style, interestingly enough.)
Bravo - Youtube of the Galaxy!
NKP guyThe ad with the way-out hair? No idea what that's trying to do.
Stuff like this happens in many eras. Just not always associated with super-wealth...
DeggestyI had thought that the lady in the first picture was a representative of some who might be seen as the train New Mexico or Arizona, not a passenger.
No, that's the height of modern European fashion, deriving perhaps from Sezession and then Wiener Moderne and Loos -- note the heavy-lidded bored expression showing you that upper-crust ennui.
Is that the dining car steward in the lower picture?
In a Fred Harvey car?
No, that's the American version of an English butler (Americans not understanding the peculiar relationship of people 'in service', they often went with really, really heavy-handed nouveau-riche snobbery instead, as evinced by that posture and facial expression. Sah! Ready to serve you, sah! Shall I tell Jeeves to pull the mo-tor around for the luggage?
The inflation calculator tells me that $25 extra fare in 1930 (I'm guessing that's the date) is about $361 today; of course that's in addition to the fare. I'll bet the fare plus the extra fare (in today's dollars) is about the same price as a first-class ticket on United from LA to Chicago.
I once read that the price of a subway ride in NYC for the last 50 or so years is almost always the price of a slice of pizza (currently $3). Maybe train fares work the same way.
I think the gentleman is supposed to represent a butler, a personage many riders of this train were used to have handling their bags. Notice how he radiates upper class snobbery. To try to be funny, don't you think he bears a small resemblance to Commodore Vanderbilt? But I'm certain he's not a railroad emplyee.
The ad is really attempting to give potential riders a sense of how they'll feel on such a de-Luxe train. Limiting the ridership is another way to denote exclusivity.
The ad with the way-out hair? No idea what that's trying to do. A failure of an advertisement, in my opinion.
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