I previously reported on a recent round trip my wife and I made on the Texas Eagle between Longview and Chicago. An overall good trip was marred by one incident that resulted in a lady passenger being removed from the train in St. Louis. The lady that was removed was seated directly across the aisle from us and appeared to be in her early 60's and was somewhat handicapped having difficulty walking. About a half hour before arriving in StL she was confronted by the conductor who told her that the car attendants had told him they were "uncomfortable" with her onboard and he was going to talk with them further about her conduct and might have to remove her from the train in St.L. He stated that he had the authority to do so and if she didn't comply he would call the police and have them take her off the train.
The incident that triggered this occurred a few minutes earlier when the lady was returning from the lower level restrooms and met a car attendant who was going down the stairs carrying trash to be removed in StL The car attendant asked the lady to back down the stairs which she refused to do stating that she had difficulty negotiating the narrow stairway. I overheard the entire conversation which wasn't overheated or profane and seemed, to me at least, to be a trivial matter. Apparently there had been at least one other disagreement when the lady boarded the train in San Antonio and was asked by the car attendant to find another seat because the one she occupied was in space reserved for parties of three or more. The lady refused to move stating it was difficult for her to get around and she wanted to sit close to the stairs leading to the restrooms. Perhaps there were other disagreements that occurred before we boarded the train but I never heard any others mentioned. When the conductor confronted the lady I told him we had been seated across from her all the way from Longview and during that time she hadn't misbehaved in any way.
I went to the diner shortly before the train stopped in StL leaving my wife to go to the restroom before joining me for breakfast. When my wife joined me she was upset because the conductor had returned and removed the lady from the train forcing her to take a bus from StL to Chicago. Both my wife and I felt this was uncalled for based on what we had overheard. The car attendant's complaints were, in our opinion, trivial and the lady wasn't a threat to any of the train crew or other passengers.
I expect there was other seating available for parties of three or more when the lady boarded in San Antonio and that situation could easily have been defused if the car attendant has shown a little understanding of the lady's infirmity and simply told her that she might have to ask her to move if and when her space was needed for a larger party. As to the incident on the stairs, we felt the attendant should have considered the difficulty the lady would have in backing down them instead of not wanting to be inconvenienced herself by having to go back up while carrying the trash container.
It seemed to us that the actions of the conductor and car attendants were unjustified and merely an unwarranted show of their authority. Their over reactions made for very poor public relations and I plan to bring this matter to the attention of someone higher up in the Amtrak organization. Any suggestions about how I should do this and to whom in Amtrak should I address my letter?
Mark
AMTK has handicapped accommodations with lower level seating, and car attendants will bring meals or refreshments as requested. These should be requested or book at time of ticketing.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
My wife and I take the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle on a regular basis from Los Angeles to Dallas [r/t] and have noticed that the Chicago crews on the Eagle often seem surely and have very negative attitudes. We always have a bedroom and the car attendants seem only "along for the ride" and those in the dinning car are for the most part down right lazy. There is a remarkable change when the cars are lashed to the SL. I don't know if there is better training in LA or what but you can sure tell the difference. Now I hasten to say that there have been some remarkable exceptions.
Write to Boardman! Use real paper and send it in an real envelope. Sign it with a signature that shows your mean business. No mousy scrawling please.
I have written to Amtrak's chief executive (Boardman or his predecessor) at least ten times. I have always gotten a reply, at least from one of his assistants, and the replies for the most part have been responsive.
Most of my trips on the Texas Eagle are between Temple and Dallas or Temple and San Antonio. In July I took the Eagle from Temple to San Antonio. I booked coach. The train departed Temple at approximately 5:00 p.m., which was approximately 17 minutes late. As soon as we were underway I went to the dinning car to see about a dinner reservation. The lead server told me that there was only one sitting (5:00 p.m.), and and all the spots had been booked. He said that they only had one sitting because of the early arrival into San Antonio (9:55 p.m.)
On a previous trip the dinning car was open until just before San Marcos. I wrote to Boardman and framed the problem for him. I received a prompt reply from his assistant that the appropriate management team member would look into issue. Last week, when I again took the Eagle to San Antonio, the dinning car was open and serving until 6:30 p.m. I don't know whether it was because of my letter, but I would like to think that it had some impact.
The conductors and other train persons who work the Eagle from San Antonio to Fort Worth, for the most part, are pretty good. One man, who has been crewing the train for more than 24 years, is very good. He takes the time to point out many of the interesting sites along the route of the Eagle from SA to FW. However, some of the Chicago based service personnel have a bad attitude. Unfortunately, because of union restraints, getting rid of them is very difficult.
Sam1, you are absolutely correct. I once wrote a letter to Mr. Boardman and received a real letter back, expressing his disappointment at my inconvenience and pledging to do something about it, which he later did.
You'd do us all a favor if you'd post Mr. Boardman's postal address.
NKP guy Sam1, you are absolutely correct. I once wrote a letter to Mr. Boardman and received a real letter back, expressing his disappointment at my inconvenience and pledging to do something about it, which he later did. You'd do us all a favor if you'd post Mr. Boardman's postal address.
I sent my last letter to Mr. Boardman c/o of Amtrak Headquarters, Union Station, Washington, D.C. 2002. My last letter to the Inspector General went to National Railroad Passenger Corporation, 10 G Street, N.E., Suite 3E-400, Washington, D.C. 2002. I understand Amtrak is headquartered at Union Station, but has offices scattered all over the district.
I am not sure whether Boardman offices at Union Station, but his assistant got my letter and responded to it. I have yet to hear from the Inspector General regarding information about Amtrak's accounting systems. I am fixing to file an FOIA request to get the information.
If I have a customer service issue, irrespective of the organization, I usually write a letter to the chief executive officer of the organization. I frame the problem as clearly and concisely as possible. I avoid using any inflammatory language and, if possible find a reason to throw in a complement. I check and re-check the facts. And I never engage in a political or other rant.
On another note, I don't just write to complain. I also write to complement. Several years ago I took the Sunset Limited from LA to Dallas. The service in the dinning car was exemplary, and my car attendant was outstanding. I wrote to Boardman to tell him what a great job his staff did in serving me.
Believe it or not big organizations, like the one that I worked for, keep the letters. If they get complements as well as improvement suggestions from a customer, they are likely to pay attention to them. But if all they hear are complaints, they get tired of it and turn off the constant whiner.
I just rode the Capitol Limited roundtrip CHI-WAS. Crappy sleeping car attendent Eastbound, great sleeping car attendent Westbound. I think your right about Chicago based crews.
Sam1 If I have a customer service issue, irrespective of the organization, I usually write a letter to the chief executive officer of the organization. I frame the problem as clearly and concisely as possible. I avoid using any inflammatory language and, if possible find a reason to throw in a complement. I check and re-check the facts. And I never engage in a political or other rant. Believe it or not big organizations, like the one that I worked for, keep the letters. If they get complements as well as improvement suggestions from a customer, they are likely to pay attention to them. But if all they hear are complaints, they get tired of it and turn off the constant whiner.
CMStPnP I just rode the Capitol Limited roundtrip CHI-WAS. Crappy sleeping car attendent Eastbound, great sleeping car attendent Westbound. I think your right about Chicago based crews.
Since an eastbound crew will return to Chicago as a westbound crew, how do you know if a specific crew is based in Chicago or Washington? Is there a possibility all Capitol crews are based at one end or the other?
Capitol Ltd. onboard service crews are based in Washington. A Chicago obs employee would not work the Capitol except in highly unusual, extraordinary circumstances.
When writing to Mr. Boardman, or the Customer Relations Office, or anybody about this kind of issue, be sure to give the complete story: the good as well as the bad. Names, dates, times, station locations, car line numbers, seat/room numbers, etc. will help to be sure that the right person is called to account, or that the right person is praised.
Dakguy201Since an eastbound crew will return to Chicago as a westbound crew, how do you know if a specific crew is based in Chicago or Washington? Is there a possibility all Capitol crews are based at one end or the other?
They announce it on the train over the PA where the crew is based. At least they did on the Capitol limited in both directions.
ACY Capitol Ltd. onboard service crews are based in Washington. A Chicago obs employee would not work the Capitol except in highly unusual, extraordinary circumstances.
Oh really?
I guess they lied to all of us over the PA system. Either that or your not as familar with Amtrak operations as you seem to think. Seriously dude, think about this. How in the hay can they base all the Capitol Limited crews out of WAS and why would they do that would be another question when Chicago is a large base. They need as much operational flexibility as possible. What happens when they cancel a Westbound Capitol Limited but not an Eastbound.............do they fly the WAS based crew there. So I don't know how you made rational sense of that before you posted it.
HUH?
"Seriously, Dude"
HOO BOY!
First, I doubt that anybody lied to you over the public address system. It's such an inconsequential point (to the typical passenger) that it hardly seems worth the effort. Maybe they worded the announcement in a confusing way or maybe they left out a clarifying point or maybe you just misunderstood. But why would they intentionally lie about something so minor?
Let's walk through this. First, remember that OBS crews are not covered by the Hours of Service Laws, and rest periods can be, and very often are, far less than 8 hours. Also remember that IN GENERAL, OBS crews stay with the same consist for the entire round trip, although there have been exceptions.
On a typical overnight train, an OBS crew (let's call them Crew 1) starts out at their home base and works to their train's destination. On the way, they get a few hours' sleep overnight. Upon arrival at the train's destination, they are released for a layover which is usually a few hours or so, depending on the train's schedule. They report back to work at their away-from-home base while Crew 2 is reporting for work back at home. Crew 1 starts back for home while Crew 2 is starting out. The two crews meet enroute at some midway point and continue on their way. Crew 1 arrives home and Crew 2 begins their layover. Crew 3 picks up the consist that Crew 1 has just brought in, and repeats the process while Crew 1 gets a couple days off. Etcetera.
Trains that run only a couple hundred miles and return on the same day may be handled differently; and trains that spend more than one night on the road would also be handled differently.
If a train is annulled, the crew usually has to stay away from home for an extra day or so until their consist can continue its cycle. If an annulment continues for several days, crews are occasionally flown home and a fresh crew is flown from the home base to pick up the consist, but this is very rare. Chicago's extra board is generally needed to cover Chicago-based trains, and there probably wouldn't be enough Chicago extra board personnel available to cover all OBS jobs (sleepers, diners, coach jobs, lounge attendant) for the return Capitol Ltd. If one crew member becomes ill & is unable to work the return leg of a train, it might be possible for one person from the extra board at the away-from-home terminal to fill the spot, but this, again, is very rare.
Some details have changed over the past 25-plus years that I have worked as an Amtrak OBS attendant. When I started working out of Washington on the extra board in 1987, I worked the Capitol Limited, the old Montrealer, the old Night Owl, the old Palmetto, and other trains. For a brief while I worked the Boston section of the Lake Shore. That's the way it was done on those trains then, and I'll guarantee that's the way it's done now (although there may have been minor variations over the years). I've been working the Auto Train since late 1987, and that's basically the way we've done it on that train from then to now. Assuming everything is on time, my layover at Sanford, FL is from 9:30AM until 2:00PM, 4-1/2 hours. I may be old and getting ready to retire, but I ain't lost all my marbles yet.
I don't understand how you THINK it's done; but the pattern I've outlined above is how it IS done. As for how I made rational sense of this before posting, I frankly don't understand how you think Amtrak schedules OBS crews, or how you think Amtrak ought to schedule them.
We've gone way off topic here. The original question had to do with removing unruly passengers, which is something the Company officially discourages. Again, I suggest that any complaints or comments that have to do with this kind of thing should be very specific so that employees who abuse the policy are clearly identified and good employees are not tarred with the wrong brush. On my train, the only person we've put off lately was a man who needed medical services.
One more thing. You say "Chicago is a large base."
No doubt. But then, WAS ain't exactly Podunk either.
ACYTrains that run only a couple hundred miles and return on the same day may be handled differently; and trains that spend more than one night on the road would also be handled differently.
LION could be wrong, but him thinks not. (which is to say he does not think... that is too much work)
On shorter trains there would be no OBS crew at all. Everything is handled by the train crew. Are not fares collected by the train conductor in any event?
More on the original topic LIRR and NJT think nothing of tossing rowdy passengers off of the train. St. Patrick's Day would be the big thing for that. Kids cutting school would buy a round trip ticket to the city and fail to notice that a round trip ticket is not good on rush hour trains. The have drunk themselves silly, and then fight with the conductor about the fare. Big mistake. This happens every year and the railroad is ready for them with all kinds of police at Jamaica station to pull them off and arrest them. Then the parents get "the phone call". They thought the kid was at school, perhaps playing basket ball with friends or something, and now they have to drive into the city to bail their kid out of jail. THAT is when the fur begins to fly.
LION was commuter in those days, and the passengers would all applaud the the kids were taken off of the train.
For the most part, Amtrak's purpose is to provide intercity service --- not commuter service. There are a few exceptions. In general, intercity trains require, at a minimum, some sort of food and beverage service. Any train where any food/beverage service is provided, requires somebody to serve it. That somebody is an OBS crew member. Fares, as you say, are collected by the conductor, although as an OBS attendant I have been in a position to help out by placing seat checks, etc. The question involved OBS crew requirements on the Capitol Limited, which has sleepers and coaches, as well as full meal and snack/beverage service.
Just curious: Do you provide full dining car service on your subway cars? How about sleepers? (I'm not talking about the winos under the seats).
ALL NYCT subway cars are dining cars. People may bring food onto the system and eat it. They also leave chicken bones on the floor for the cleaners to remove if the rats do not get them first.
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I was just curious whether the LION would provide a nice Thompson's Gazelle steak. Or is that politically incorrect?
As for the other thing, my train doesn't carry pets, whereas NYCT appears to have a more liberal policy. Maybe NYCT is more progressive than Amtrak in that regard.
And a ten-year old can use his Metrocard and board a subway train without being hassled, while Amtrak requires a 15 year old to travel alone only with special arrangements and specific circumstances and will not allow a 12 year old to travel by himself. I did a great deal of long-disance train travel from the age 10 on, first trip in Spring 1942.
So did I, back in the ancient days. Lawyers ..........don't you just love 'em?
daveklepper And a ten-year old can use his Metrocard and board a subway train without being hassled, while Amtrak requires a 15 year old to travel alone only with special arrangements and specific circumstances and will not allow a 12 year old to travel by himself. I did a great deal of long-disance train travel from the age 10 on, first trip in Spring 1942.
There is a big difference between riding about one's own city on a bus or subway and riding on an AMTRAK train. Amtrak implies a destination in another part of the country where it must me assumed that a juvenile would not travel alone. They could be a runaway. Even if the journey were on the up and up, things can happen to children who are alone. Abductions and sexual assaults not the least among them, and neither AMTK (their lawyers) nor the air lines want to be encumbered with the responsibility or liability for the safe transport of minors without guardians. You will probably find the same restrictions for incompetent or disabled adults.
Besides, you never know, they just might be eaten by a LION.
You have a point. My experience, and my memories of my child solo subway-elevated-streetcar-bus trips, is that back then passengers were far more protective of each other, and anyone tyring to molest a ten-year-old would be tackled by the strongest of the other passengers nearby. I do recall being "groped" by an adjacent male as a 14-year old and being absolutely unable to do anything about it because of the jam-packed nature of the subway car, until the doors opened at the next station. I do read an on-line newspaper of one of the major cities in the USA, and one of the bus routes had problems of this sort plus robberies, with danger to the driver as well, until recently when plainclosthesmen began riding the route and caught some of the perpetrators, possibly all.
Lion, I did not know you were a cannibal.
Oh, regarding all subway cars being dining cars: About a year-and-a-half ago, possibly reported here but maybe not, a gourme supper club in New York did make an L-trip from 8th and 42nd to Canarsie into a dinner train. While the crew changed ends at 8th Avenue, the waiters appeared with folding tables set up in one car (I believe the rear car) and the diners boarded, and the preliminary course was qukcly put on the tables. At Union Square, another crew boarded, removed the first course, and placed the second, and at East New York-Broadway Junction, the last course, or something like, with every trace removed at Canarsie. I think there were about 16 or 20 diners in total. I understand the Transit Authority was not pleased. The food was prepared by restaurants adjecent to the specific subway stops. This was before the latest equipment and automatic operation was put into service.
Dave & LION (& Others, of course):
All kidding aside, we're trying to reconcile the realities of two entirely different worlds here. When I was still in my teens (a bit older than 14), I took a wonderful solo trip that involved the NYC to Buffalo, the PRR's Spartan Baltimore Day Express down the unspoiled, scenic Susquehanna to Harrisburg, and PRR/B&O home. I would never allow a kid of mine to do that today because there are too many creeps out there, and Joe Citizen is afraid to get involved.
We don't get kids travelling solo on the Auto Train, simply because all automobiles on the train are the property of some adult passenger who is expected to keep an eye on his or her children. During the summer especially, we get a lot of families traveling to FL to see Mickey Mouse. Come to think of it, they could do that by riding the NY subway! Anyway, the OBS crew and the operating crew try to watch for anything that might be amiss, but we can't be everywhere at once, so the responsibility is ultimately the adult passenger's.
I do remember an old cartoon from Railroad Magazine in the 1940's or 1950's. In it, the conductor finds a little kid traveling alone in a coach seat with a note from Mom safety-pinned to his chest saying:
Conductor:
Please put this child off at Albany.
I guess that was the Age of Innocence.
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