NJT has curtailed services this evening on all Hoboken Division lines: Port Jervis, Pascack Valley, Morris and Essex including Montclair-Boonton and Gladstone branches! Why? Real snow problems or fear of failure and retribution if a mishap. Or is it just easier not to be a railroad?
All right....I'm an old fart. I have been around railroading, particularly the Morris and Essex and Boonton lines of NJT since I was three years old. I've seen trains and service stopped dead in their tracks but only for a few hours in the past...after all railroads are an all weather transportation form, right? That's why I can't fathom this not running because of snow...trains always kept running despite snow. The DL&W would run trains all night just to keep tracks clear of snow and prevent the formation of ice on catenary. From the sounds of things, management of NJT (and to a lesser extent,Amtrak, MNRR, and LIRR)are afraid, reluctant to do what the system, the technology, was and is designed to do, what they are charged with doing! Have lawyers and insurance consultants hammered the fear of retribution for problems or for failure? Have they forgotten how railroads are run? Or don't they really know? Yes, timetables and schedules are thrown out the window, all trains make all stops on all routes and keep on going no matter what. You keep on plugging because that's what customers and public expect, and what railroaders expect of themselves. You run slow, you run carefully...so what if it takes you an hour do do five miles or even a mile...you at least are doing what you are paid to do, trained to do, signed on to do, what railroads say the can do. That is what the railroads and railroaders of the last Century sold us. They stop running trains today like a school superintendent whose lawyers tell him to close school if there is a dark cloud or a snowflake falling lest they be sued if something went wrong. What is wrong is that we aren't the great society we used to be because we are either afraid of failing or scared of legal action against us.
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35 years ago, the Northeastern United States Blizzard of 1978 shut down rail service for days.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Can't disagree with what you said, Henry. For what it's worth, search "You Tube Amtrak and New Jersey Transit In The Snow." It's a very good amateur video of the action at Rahway in a snowstorm from 2010, eleven minutes worth. Apparantly NJT and Amtrack weren't bothered by snow three years ago.
Inaddition, I heard Amtrak's suspended service north of Penn Station due to the storm.
"The last century" is the clue.
EG. In the 70's an SP crew saw smoke at the roof of a tunnel, and in run 8 at 10 mph in a tunnel, they continued. A radio report on exiting the tunnel alerted the cavalry, but by the time the firefighters got to the tunnel, a major conflagration consumed the tunnel.
The train and engine crew were criticized for not stopping and "taking every effort to preserve company property," and got fired.
And, there was a rule that "every precaution must be taken..." when inclement weather exists.....or get fired.
With rules like that what person should be asked to run a train?
Yes, I see how it's hard to make a judgment call when the rule book's written in such a way that it contradicts itself or is just a mass of "do this, you get fired", "don't do this, you get fired" statements. Mind you, I have no idea what NJT's rule book looks like or says.
However, Henry's right when he says back in the old days railroads made their ability to get through dirty weather when no-one else could a BIG selling point. "Let it rain! Let it blow! Let it snow!" said an old Pennsy ad, intimating it meant nothing to the PRR.
But, that was then, this is now, maybe it's just not important anymore.
schlimm 35 years ago, the Northeastern United States Blizzard of 1978 shut down rail service for days.
That problem was unique to the Corridor where new filters failed to keep snow out of the GG1's and stopped things...on the Corridor, though. There was a particular fine snow that did it to the locomotives and MNRR, LIRR, and other parts of NJT did not have the same problems
But in general or over all....this idea of giving rather than trying certainly doesn't fit the pattern or hype of "the railroad" as we were told and saw work. It is like they are either afraid or don't know how. Maybe you don't follow the schedule, but you provide service just the same...then proudly hype it afterwards, tell the world how good you are because you did it...not pretend you're good because you didn't.
Perhaps 35 years ago isn't really the "good ol' days" but clearly the rails were pretty well shut down then by the 1978 NE blizzard. Reality is that those good ol' days weren't nearly as good as some folks' recollections make them out to be. Additionally, suspending service until tracks can be cleared is much smarter than stranding passengers on often unheated trains for 24+ hours. Given the choice, most folks would rather be stranded in an office than the middle of nowhere. It's why the roads and rails were closed in advance this time.
schlimm35 years ago, the Northeastern United States Blizzard of 1978 shut down rail service for days.
Schlimm,
It's interesting you should mention this. I had just moved to Paterson as part of a job transfer. My wife and not come yet. I was staying at the Y and had nothing to do. So I got up in the morning and walked to the Paterson Station and waited for the Conrail train to Hoboken and took the PATH to Penn Station where the Penn Central sold me a ticket to Providence. The train was late, very late. No buses were running at all and my Mom lived in Warwick, miles away. But my brother lived in East Providence within walking distance so I hiked up to his and his wife's apartment. The next day we dug out his car and drove down to my Mom's house.
But you are right. As I recall, my train was the last one out.
Thanks for the memories. John
and this blizzard may break the snowfall records in Boston and several other areas, up to 30" with 50-70 mph winds.
Henry,
Depending on the trains, the last ones are running between 7 and 8 pm. I just don't see that as totally unreasonable.
Best regards, John
LIRR and SEPTA are running...MNRR east of Hudson last runs start between 10 and 10:30. At 8PM Denville had about 4 to 5 inches of snow. We had school buses take us to school at that mark...and trains were running, too.
henry6 schlimm 35 years ago, the Northeastern United States Blizzard of 1978 shut down rail service for days. That problem was unique to the Corridor where new filters failed to keep snow out of the GG1's and stopped things...on the Corridor, though. There was a particular fine snow that did it to the locomotives and MNRR, LIRR, and other parts of NJT did not have the same problems But in general or over all....this idea of giving rather than trying certainly doesn't fit the pattern or hype of "the railroad" as we were told and saw work. It is like they are either afraid or don't know how. Maybe you don't follow the schedule, but you provide service just the same...then proudly hype it afterwards, tell the world how good you are because you did it...not pretend you're good because you didn't.
As of 6am it was still snowing in New Haven, CT. A record snow of 34" beyond anything in those good ol' days. It's a good thing that the rails are being careful.
Being careful and cautious is one thing. NJT resumed bus services first thing this morning. LIRR is running best it can on the four major routes. With only 4 inches of snow in Denville at 8 last night, NJT was premature in shutting down. In fact, if the past serves as an example, the should have run at least half hourly service in each direction at locomotive and at least two cars making all stops and with supervisors, etc. to keep inspection of right of way including track, trees and catanary. They could curtail services when deemed necessary to make repair or whatever, but not overall suspend services indefinitely and at such an early hour. Now, it is going to be up to 12 hours before service can be restored thus not serving their purpose to their customers for a good 24 hours. This is not what my 60 years of paying attention to railroads and transit tells me is right. They are either afraid or can't remember how. Yes, I've heard the arguments about not having the personnel but they have fewer switches and complicated interlockings with new technologies, etc. which should perform better. And they have had enough experience with rolling stock to be prepared to handle storms. No, they just seem to be overcautious under estimating their personal, personnel, and system's ability to do the job it was designed to do.
henry6 the{y} {NJT} should have run at least half hourly service in each direction at locomotive and at least two cars making all stops and with supervisors, etc. to keep inspection of right of way including track, trees and catanary.
If it were up to me I would appoint you Executive Director of New Jersey Transit. But it isn't up to me so I'll just have to soldier on with the trains and busses NJT allows me to have.
Right now (11:30 am Saturday) the weather report is almost 30 inches of snow in Boston and it is still snowing. Temperature is 19 degrees ƒ,
Thank you, but first, too far beyond retirement age. Second am not political enough, or polite enough, to do the job....and not very appreciative of the "new" ways of railroading either!
....but seriously, I do think they are over reacting...NJT, weather services, media, etc, in a hysterical way rather than sober thought. Yeah, weather is getting worse, and seemingly more predictable, but that doesn't mean we have to close shop to the extreme, afraid of what we do or don't do. If we are professionals in any endeavor, then proper, intelligent, safe, but productive steps can be taken. But the fear of a snowflake leading to the worse case scenario so let's go home reaction does not serve anyone well.
1. NJ got up to 12" of snowfall, troublesome but not a record and can be cleared.
2. They were cautious, perhaps overly so, but better safe than sorry.
3. There is more to the Northeast than Jersey. Boston 30+ inches with high winds and drifting; Providence 30"; Connecticut 36". As a result of the New England governors exercising common sense in calling a travel ban yesterday afternoon, they are able to have cleared the main roads well enough to lift it at 4:00pm today.
There is one thing that it takes to keep a railroad operating when getting hit with heavy snow....
MANPOWER
Manpower that railroads no longer possess. They have enough manpower to perform the normal functions of operations and maintenance during normal weather conditions. They no longer have 8-10 man Section Gangs every 8-10 miles along their routes. They no longer have a Signal Maintainer and his helper at every interlocking. Railroad employment has been 'right sized' to perform the necessary functions in normal condiditons - no more.
Came across a B&O RR Company Magazine from the middle 1950's - it contained a statement about the 53,000 employees of the B&O 'family'. CSX is the successor company to the B&O, as well as C&O, ACL, SCL, L&N, WM, Monon, & 42% of PRR & NYC (and the other Carriers that formed ConRail) - CSX employs 32,000.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Manpower! Nonsense!! Section gangs are not needed because there are no huge interlockings, etc. Lots of double track or multi track...so just straight line the switches and run the damned trains! Forget schedules, put a locomotive on each end of a set of say 6 or so cars, and run making all stops. Then come back. Run every half hour or less in each direction. Have a three man train crew plus three track men if possible. Run trains...that's what you are in business to do, what has been done since 1830, what new technologies make easier and more efficient, what railroads do. On an NJT devoted forum, there is a lot of complaints and accusations about the management being politicians and not railroaders, afraid to run trains for fear of falling wires, getting caught in snow, falling tree limbs, not able to maintain speed, etc. Fears! not application of skills and knowledge and experience using new technologies to their advantage. It is like they don't know how to run a train unless the sun is shining. LIRR slugged it out, provided service all day today on 4 of its main routes; MNRR East of Hudson, dusted off the snow and were up and running up the Hudson and to Brewster and Wassaic long before noon. Connecticut, a different story with three feet of snow along the coast and drifts on the branches. Down in Philadelphia service was curtailed on the 101 trolley line in Media because of a parade. NJT had stipulated 8PM Friday night as end of service...and in Denville, not even 600 ft in elevation, had only 4 inches of snow...why did they stop running trains? We used to ride school buses in that much snow, and the DL&W RR ran full schedule and on time! One has to really ask about the ability of today's NJT's managers to operate services...they are either afraid to operate or don't know how. If there is a manpower problem, it is in the ranks of managers who know how.
It should also be pointed out that the NWS was predicting as much as 17" snow in northern NJ on Friday Consequently NJT planned in accordance with that. Actual totals were less but variable:
"Snow totals are in for New Jersey after Friday’s blizzard, and the highest snowfalls are spread across the northern part of the state while other areas were spared. The National Weather Service reports River Vale in northern Bergen County got 15 inches. West Milford, Hillsdale and Scotch Plains all got more than a foot of snow. Cedar Grove residents woke up to about 10 inches of snow Saturday morning. In the greater Trenton area, amounts ranged from six inches to around eight. Much of the initial projected snowfall came up short on the expected amounts. Newark had been projected to get up to a foot of snow or possibly more but received about 5 or 6 inches. About 5 inches fell on Jersey City and about 6 inches fell at Newark Liberty International Airport, which was closed overnight but was scheduled to reopen at 8:30 a.m. Saturday."So some residents there are whining about NJT? What else?
henry6 Manpower! Nonsense!! Section gangs are not needed because there are no huge interlockings, etc. Lots of double track or multi track...so just straight line the switches and run the damned trains! Forget schedules, put a locomotive on each end of a set of say 6 or so cars, and run making all stops. Then come back. Run every half hour or less in each direction. Have a three man train crew plus three track men if possible. Run trains...that's what you are in business to do, what has been done since 1830, what new technologies make easier and more efficient, what railroads do. On an NJT devoted forum, there is a lot of complaints and accusations about the management being politicians and not railroaders, afraid to run trains for fear of falling wires, getting caught in snow, falling tree limbs, not able to maintain speed, etc. Fears! not application of skills and knowledge and experience using new technologies to their advantage. It is like they don't know how to run a train unless the sun is shining. LIRR slugged it out, provided service all day today on 4 of its main routes; MNRR East of Hudson, dusted off the snow and were up and running up the Hudson and to Brewster and Wassaic long before noon. Connecticut, a different story with three feet of snow along the coast and drifts on the branches. Down in Philadelphia service was curtailed on the 101 trolley line in Media because of a parade. NJT had stipulated 8PM Friday night as end of service...and in Denville, not even 600 ft in elevation, had only 4 inches of snow...why did they stop running trains? We used to ride school buses in that much snow, and the DL&W RR ran full schedule and on time! One has to really ask about the ability of today's NJT's managers to operate services...they are either afraid to operate or don't know how. If there is a manpower problem, it is in the ranks of managers who know how.
There is one other word that has sway in the railroads of today. The S word.
Safety.
Many of the things that were once done to keep railroads operating are now not considered within the range of the S word. You can rage against this all that you want - If you 'force' someone to perform a action that they consider 'unsafe' - it is YOUR job that is now in their hands, hands that may now be predisposed to prove you wrong! How good is your job insurance?
Additionally, where many of the people necessary to keep the plant operating were within walking distance of their work locations in the past - they are now commuters to the job, just like those riding the trains they are trying to keep operating and subject to the performance of road clearing crews.
I'm sorry I can't be with you on this issue. The snow was no surprise and early on NJT was urging people to leave early Friday and they put on extra early trains. And they did run their trains up to the end of the evening rush hour. I haven't heard about anyone who was stranded and if there were some people who had to stay at a hotel overnight, well NJT did everything it could to warn them about the weather emergency.
Today the trains started by noon. With all of our snow it is hard for me to imagine people getting themselves shoveled out any earlier than that anyway.
Honestly, NJT top management is generally highly regarded. They did make a big mistake during Sandy but I don't hear any outcry from riders or the public in general that this was a mistake. So far the Star-Ledger has reported the suspended service but made to other comment.
Could they have continued service longer and restarted it earlier? I suppose they might have. Has the riding public had and problems due to their cuts? So far I haven't heard any.
But no one will ever say you don't care about railroads. That's for sure.
John
The only "S" word that fits is "scared"! They have the equipment, the people, the knowledge, ability, and the track today that allows for much better service than provided. Lawyers and insurance companies have intimidated politicians and their managers into being scared of doing anything, There have been commuters for over 150 years who made it to the station to ride to and from work without the interference of lawyers and the like. If you know your job, you can do it with safety and intelligence. I you don't know how, you become a politician or a politicians handmaiden. Sorry, there is being cautious and there is being scared and afraid to do anything. I am not saying doing anything that hasn't been done before: run trains to keep the tracks clear. Don't give up at the prospect of a snow flake. Honestly doing a job with intelligence and skill is more macho than claiming you have to have an arsenal of military weaponry. Yet we wave guns rather than rolling up sleeves and applying ourselves. The latter is the American ethic I know and honor, not the former that seems to rule. We are so full of contradictions.
Maybe something besides the anger?
Amtrak managed to keep running during the blizzard of 1996 that dumped over 30" on Phila and two feet or so all the way up to Boston - complete with drifting snow. I believe the way you do it is to "straight rail" the interlockings so that you have a through route, one track in each direction - and leave it alone. Then, run trains to keep the line clear.
The big trick is getting the crews to work from home. You could pre-position them in hotels and put them up when getting their rest at "home".
They've done it before. Maybe they forgot how. New operating dept VP at Amtrak these days.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6 The only "S" word that fits is "scared"! They have the equipment, the people, the knowledge, ability, and the track today that allows for much better service than provided. Lawyers and insurance companies have intimidated politicians and their managers into being scared of doing anything, There have been commuters for over 150 years who made it to the station to ride to and from work without the interference of lawyers and the like. If you know your job, you can do it with safety and intelligence. I you don't know how, you become a politician or a politicians handmaiden. Sorry, there is being cautious and there is being scared and afraid to do anything. I am not saying doing anything that hasn't been done before: run trains to keep the tracks clear. Don't give up at the prospect of a snow flake. Honestly doing a job with intelligence and skill is more macho than claiming you have to have an arsenal of military weaponry. Yet we wave guns rather than rolling up sleeves and applying ourselves. The latter is the American ethic I know and honor, not the former that seems to rule. We are so full of contradictions.
Henry, this is not 1950 anymore. Even if you straight rail your mainline, one obstruction (tree or wires) on a track, and now you have to go out and clean the interlockings so you can get around it - or wait until the handful of mow/cs guys left on the system can get out there. There are still many aspects of railroading that need PEOPLE. The numbers of which just aren't around like they used to be. And the last thing you want to do is strand a train with passengers on it for a few hours. Because we will all hear about it on youtube and facebook and it will create a political nightmare. I doubt the passengers will be too understanding of having to wait for something on the track to be cleared up, the patient animals we are.
And no, I don't believe the railroads should risk injury to their crews, or damage to millions of dollars of locomotives, cars and ROW just to shuffle a few people around. That isn't foolish in my book. Even freight railroads that do this thing for profit have figured out when it makes sense to stop running certain trains in bad weather.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
henry6Yeah, weather is getting worse, and seemingly more predictable, but that doesn't mean we have to close shop to the extreme, afraid of what we do or don't do. If we are professionals in any endeavor, then proper, intelligent, safe, but productive steps can be taken. But the fear of a snowflake leading to the worse case scenario so let's go home reaction does not serve anyone well.
I agree with you in principle. Impulsive shoot-from-the-hip decisions are not the best thing for us as individuals or for large organizations of any kind including New Jersey Transit. But I think we need to consider that while they are still reeling from Sandy and have worked hard and successfully to restore service after Sandy they are suddenly hit by the snow storm. Perhaps they were a little too cautious. But there are worse faults, a lot worse. I can live with the way NJT reacted this time.
For an older guy like I am you have the passion of a 20 year old. I don't have that passion but I admire you for it.
Zug, you and other professional railroaders know how to railroad, how to do the job, how to follow the rules, how to not follow the rules, and how to do everything safely with skill and intelligence. Where are we today in that catagory. What is unsafe about having trains run to keep snow and ice cleared? What is unsafe about having maintenance and track people patrolling track with high railers? If they are railroaders, they will keep themselves safe. 1950 it is not, I agree. We have high railers, radio, form D's, fewer and smaller interlockings--often less complex, too. If you don't want to railroad go make pizza!
henry6 Zug, you and other professional railroaders know how to railroad, how to do the job, how to follow the rules, how to not follow the rules, and how to do everything safely with skill and intelligence. Where are we today in that catagory. What is unsafe about having trains run to keep snow and ice cleared? What is unsafe about having maintenance and track people patrolling track with high railers? If they are railroaders, they will keep themselves safe. 1950 it is not, I agree. We have high railers, radio, form D's, fewer and smaller interlockings--often less complex, too. If you don't want to railroad go make pizza!
We also have multitudes of rules and regulations that did not exist a decade or two ago. How many hyrailers and qualified track formen/iinspectors does NJT have? I doubt it is as many as you think. How many crews are ther to runt he trains? How many locmotives ande cars? Usually the ranks are kept as thin as possible. Yeah, we know how to railroad - but we can only do so much with the tools we are given.
If there's a problem with an interlocking it isn't always as easy as thawing out the pipes or airlines... many times it may be a computer issue with the software that controls said interlocking. So while you may think they are less complex, nothing can be further from the truth.
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