BaltACDAll of whom are dependent on impassable highways to get to their reporting points to do any productive work.
Balt,
I don't know about railroads. But I worked for the government all my life. The government's perspective is live where you want but you know where your job is and you're expected to be there. Period. During my last years flex time as adopted which meant if I was 10 minutes late there was no problem; I just worked that 10 minutes at the end of the day after my normal leaving time. In a snow emergency your manager would usually cut you some slack if you were a late but you were expected to come in. I lived in a somewhat rural area and a couple of times I couldn't get in so I wound up using a vacation day. If railroads give special considerations to people who live far away from the places where they work, well I have to admire railroads for the human concern they show for their employees.
With best regards, John
Maybe, maybe not. A lot live withing walking distance of the railroad if not their terminals...you're making a problem where there may not be one..
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henry6 And Balt, I think the commuter roads have more trainmasters and RFE because of the complexity of the operations...hundreds of trains and thousands of employees all within 50 to 100 miles from terminal bumper blocks but in dozens of directions and end terminals. Plus similar numbers of track and signal people plus their supervisors....long stretches of single and double track with no switches or interlockings easier than a ten switch interlocking every two to five miles. And these are government agencies, heavily top loaded with "supervisory" and "management" personnel....many of whom never punched a ticket, witnessed cars slip across a grade crossing in front of you while doing 60mph, hammered a spike or wired a signal box...wonder if they have even ridden a train in their life...
And Balt, I think the commuter roads have more trainmasters and RFE because of the complexity of the operations...hundreds of trains and thousands of employees all within 50 to 100 miles from terminal bumper blocks but in dozens of directions and end terminals. Plus similar numbers of track and signal people plus their supervisors....long stretches of single and double track with no switches or interlockings easier than a ten switch interlocking every two to five miles. And these are government agencies, heavily top loaded with "supervisory" and "management" personnel....many of whom never punched a ticket, witnessed cars slip across a grade crossing in front of you while doing 60mph, hammered a spike or wired a signal box...wonder if they have even ridden a train in their life...
All of whom are dependent on impassable highways to get to their reporting points to do any productive work.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MNRR-ConDot Waterbury branch still closed; Danbury, New Canaan branches reopened, New Haven opened with limited traffic for peak but holding its own for the off peak services.
carnej1Slight correction, the average snowfall in the Greater Providence area was only 20" (I estimate about that amount at my home in the City of East Providence) but there were some areas of higher elevation in Northern RI that were close to 30". O.C, being that this is a tiny state it wasn't all that far from the Capital city to the heavy snow area..
As of 7:00 am 2/11/2013, snowfall totals were pretty variable:
Cranston = 12"
Woonsocket = 24"
North Kingstown = 17"
West Glocester = 25.5
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm 1. NJ got up to 12" of snowfall, troublesome but not a record and can be cleared. 2. They were cautious, perhaps overly so, but better safe than sorry. 3. There is more to the Northeast than Jersey. Boston 30+ inches with high winds and drifting; Providence 30"; Connecticut 36". As a result of the New England governors exercising common sense in calling a travel ban yesterday afternoon, they are able to have cleared the main roads well enough to lift it at 4:00pm today.
1. NJ got up to 12" of snowfall, troublesome but not a record and can be cleared.
2. They were cautious, perhaps overly so, but better safe than sorry.
3. There is more to the Northeast than Jersey. Boston 30+ inches with high winds and drifting; Providence 30"; Connecticut 36". As a result of the New England governors exercising common sense in calling a travel ban yesterday afternoon, they are able to have cleared the main roads well enough to lift it at 4:00pm today.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Surprisingly many are system wide qualified even if they don't always work the whole system...from those I have spoken with, on the extra board one has to be qualified in order to work and make any money. I would assume most bid jobs stay close to home, within their own division (Hoboken: all ex EL lines; Newark: all ex CNJ, PRR and NY&LB lines; Atlantic City: ex PRS). Equipment is the same on both divisions with same power changes and needs from the overhead, ACL seems to have the most captive equipment though. Time has passed so that there is an NJT labor contract as well as remnants of CNJ, DLW, Erie, EL, NYL&B, PRR rosters at least. There is a lot of flexibility just within any of the Divisions.
The suburban operations may have thousands of employees, but are the operating personnel (both labor and management) qualified on every district? Are the non-ops familiar with procedure and equipment on other than their home district? How much re-assignment is allowed under labor contracts? There may not be as much flexibility as you presume.
Firelock76 Henry, another poster on another thread said it a lot better than I could: "Professionals know that sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Accountants think you make money by NOT spending money." It ain't just railroads that have that conumdrum. Trust me.
Henry, another poster on another thread said it a lot better than I could: "Professionals know that sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Accountants think you make money by NOT spending money."
It ain't just railroads that have that conumdrum. Trust me.
Another BINGO: American businesses have been in the business of saving money not making money by not producing quantity nor quality and laying off people, closing stores and factories. Then importing products of lesser quality....and if the boat sinks enroute, tough luck till next time.
Henry,
If you look at the S-L transit forum you will find someone who agrees with you.
John
henry6sound is a safety warning: when you hear a train approaching you know enough (supposedly) to get or stay out of the way.
If you hear a train you may get out of the way. If you don't hear it you will not get out of the way.
henry6 They better have enough trainmasters, roadformen, roadmasters, maintainers, and track men of some kind to be viable. Plus, wouldn't it be better to find things out and start repairs as they happen instead of waiting ten, twelve, or more hours, tally up the problems, assign someone to fix them, and then wait until each item is taken care of?
They better have enough trainmasters, roadformen, roadmasters, maintainers, and track men of some kind to be viable. Plus, wouldn't it be better to find things out and start repairs as they happen instead of waiting ten, twelve, or more hours, tally up the problems, assign someone to fix them, and then wait until each item is taken care of?
If you are lucky, you have 1 Trainmaster and 1 Road Foreman of Engines to cover a 150 mile sub-division. That Sub-Divison's track maintenance would probably be split between 2 Roadmasters that will have maybe 15 people in total to cover their 75 route miles of responsibility. You might have up to 3 Signal maintainers over that territory to cover, not only the interlockings but all the highway grade crossings that have automatic crossing protection.
Rail employees, in general, do not live in walking distance to their reporting point. In some cases T&E employees live more than 100 miles from their reporting points. All these employees rely on the condition of the highways in general to get in position to perform their duties. Hi-Rail equipment is easily derailed by snow & ice build up in flangeways at road crossings and is not configured to remove snow from the right of way.
As I stated in a prior post - the one thing it takes railroads to respond to the effects of Winter Storms is MANPOWER - manpower that the railroads no longer possess. I have worked through Winter Storms both 'back in the day' and today. Back in the day, you had 4 & 5 man train & engine crews - today you have 2 man crews on the road and in some cases single man crews (how can you call a single man a crew) in the yards. Back in the day, MofW would assign a trackman to work with crews performing industry work to help sweep out switches and anything elses that needed attention; today crews are on their own. Back in the day there were Signal Maintainers assigned to each Interlocking and in many cases they had assistants who were learning the trade; today maintainers are on their own and have geographic territories to cover that include several Control Points as well as any number of highway crossings that have automatic protection. Back in the day the railroads signal system depended upon railroad supplied electric power that arrived on railroad maintained pole lines; today virtually all power to all signal devices is supplied by the commercial power grid, when the grid fails there are on site batteries that will operate the equipment for a relatively short period of time (12-16 hours or less). Once the batteries fail then the carriers supply their own electricity - generators (which have a propensity of being stolen) that will supply power until their fuel tank runs dry. Back in the day many carriers deadhead crews on their own passenger trains; today virtually all crew movement is performed by contracted highway carriers, at the first sign of a snowflake the contract carrier my railroad deals with suspends service, in the name of safety.
You can link the S word to being scared - and you may be right - however, that is the way the game is played today, like it or not. Just received my divisions monthly newsletter - 24 articles highlighting various people and functions that division personnel are involved in - in each of the 24 articles various aspects of safety are specifically mentioned. As a aside, my division has conclued a period of over 1,000,000 manhours Injury Free. I have been involved with this division 'back in the day' as well as in the present - back in the day the division was lucky to go 1,000 manhours without a injury. The safety culture of this division and carrier have changed over the past 40+ years. The culture has changed to the point that the best way to stay out of harm, is not to get in harms way.
zugmannThere has been some nimby opposition - but it has not gone very far or stopped the chainsaws. I think after several power outages, the cries of opposition are starting to fall on deaf ears.
Zugman,
Do NIMBY's have much effect at all? I know a lot of people can make a lot of noise but I just don't see them influencing very much at all in the absence of a really compelling argument. In my state the power company has just won a battle to replace the towers that support high tension wires with higher towers that will carry more electric power. But how do the NIMBY's expect to run their central air conditioning without more electric power? Somehow that issue evades them.
I grew up in Denville, a quarter of a mile west of the station on Chestnut Hill on the westbound side of the tracks and am quite familiar with the nearness of the railroad there and all across NJ. Since 1946 I have seen trees and foliage overrun the rights of way from the four and six track wide Corridor to the single tracks of the Gladstone, Pascack Valley, and even the Southern Tier Line for examples. Where tracks hsve been removed it is quite startling to see how the area where tracks were taken out has grown up. Trees and bushes now brush the sides of the trains in some places if not provide a fence alongside it. And yes, it has been allowed to happen because if dampens noise and sort of prevents trespassers. And yes, the money counters have encouraged not having it cut back. But just the Southern Tier Line across to Port Jervis is a good example of what can happen with the side brush and trees don't get cut back. And that line doesn't even have overhead wires to feed power to the trains. Engineers have complained about the closeness of the trees; falling down on the track is one thing, but so is obscuring signals and platforms. It is about time the rights of way get opened up again...sound is a safety warning: when you hear a train approaching you know enough (supposedly) to get or stay out of the way. And the ability of the engineer to see you could save your life.
zugmann Actually there seems to be a renewed interest in tree trimming, at least locally. NS and Amtrak have been doing a lot of tree trimming/clearing and on the non-railroad front, PP&L has been trimming under some of the main transmission lines here. There has been some nimby opposition - but it has not gone very far or stopped the chainsaws. I think after several power outages, the cries of opposition are starting to fall on deaf ears.
Actually there seems to be a renewed interest in tree trimming, at least locally. NS and Amtrak have been doing a lot of tree trimming/clearing and on the non-railroad front, PP&L has been trimming under some of the main transmission lines here.
There has been some nimby opposition - but it has not gone very far or stopped the chainsaws. I think after several power outages, the cries of opposition are starting to fall on deaf ears.
Or in the case of California, the fires started by trees tangling with the wires is reducing the nimby opposition.
henry6 erikem What might make sense is running work trains on a regular basis to keep the snow from getting too deep on the tracks and having crew and equipment on board to take care of things like fallen trees. - Erik BINGO! And as for trees..it is a conundrum. NIMBYS don't like the noise or sight of trains, accountants don'l like the cost of keeping them trimmed. Train crews like to see ahead, not have limbs over the tracks, or fallen trees across them for safety and efficiency of running. Guess who has won these past 20 years?
erikem What might make sense is running work trains on a regular basis to keep the snow from getting too deep on the tracks and having crew and equipment on board to take care of things like fallen trees. - Erik
What might make sense is running work trains on a regular basis to keep the snow from getting too deep on the tracks and having crew and equipment on board to take care of things like fallen trees.
- Erik
BINGO!
And as for trees..it is a conundrum. NIMBYS don't like the noise or sight of trains, accountants don'l like the cost of keeping them trimmed. Train crews like to see ahead, not have limbs over the tracks, or fallen trees across them for safety and efficiency of running. Guess who has won these past 20 years?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
henry6NIMBYS don't like the noise or sight of trains, accountants don'l like the cost of keeping them trimmed.
This is America. There are people who will complain about anything under the sun. But it doesn't mean these people are successful in their complaints. I live next to Montclair. Montclair is an upscale community that contains 7 as in seven railroad stations. Many many people's homes back up on the railroad tracks and many of these are big expensive homes. Perhaps some complain but you don't hear about it or read about it. I think a lot of people like the convenience of a close by train station.
Best regards, John
When a storm hits, the issues will quickly snowball (sorry). You're going to need lots of men (more than you will ever have available - esp ones that fall under HOS rules), to address all the problems the instant they happen. That's if you KNOW what the problem is. You may start getting TOLs (track occupancy lights) on a section of track, and the only way to figure out what is wrong is for the maintainer to take a walk or hyrail ride.
And that's not even getting into signal or catenary issues.
No company in this day and age is going to have a surplus of manpower just in case a storm hits. Rosters are kept lean. That's the way it is.
An e-mail from my sister in New Hampshire clued me into one important reason why the travel bans were imposed in Mass and CT - plowing the roads is a LOT easier if there are no cars on the road stuck in the snow. Similarly, clearing the RR lines would be a lot easier if there are no trains stuck in the snow - as Zug mentioned, a fallen tree will do as good a job of blocking the line as now will.
henry6 Zug, you and other professional railroaders know how to railroad, how to do the job, how to follow the rules, how to not follow the rules, and how to do everything safely with skill and intelligence. Where are we today in that catagory. What is unsafe about having trains run to keep snow and ice cleared? What is unsafe about having maintenance and track people patrolling track with high railers? If they are railroaders, they will keep themselves safe. 1950 it is not, I agree. We have high railers, radio, form D's, fewer and smaller interlockings--often less complex, too. If you don't want to railroad go make pizza!
Zug, you and other professional railroaders know how to railroad, how to do the job, how to follow the rules, how to not follow the rules, and how to do everything safely with skill and intelligence. Where are we today in that catagory. What is unsafe about having trains run to keep snow and ice cleared? What is unsafe about having maintenance and track people patrolling track with high railers? If they are railroaders, they will keep themselves safe. 1950 it is not, I agree. We have high railers, radio, form D's, fewer and smaller interlockings--often less complex, too. If you don't want to railroad go make pizza!
We also have multitudes of rules and regulations that did not exist a decade or two ago. How many hyrailers and qualified track formen/iinspectors does NJT have? I doubt it is as many as you think. How many crews are ther to runt he trains? How many locmotives ande cars? Usually the ranks are kept as thin as possible. Yeah, we know how to railroad - but we can only do so much with the tools we are given.
If there's a problem with an interlocking it isn't always as easy as thawing out the pipes or airlines... many times it may be a computer issue with the software that controls said interlocking. So while you may think they are less complex, nothing can be further from the truth.
henry6Yeah, weather is getting worse, and seemingly more predictable, but that doesn't mean we have to close shop to the extreme, afraid of what we do or don't do. If we are professionals in any endeavor, then proper, intelligent, safe, but productive steps can be taken. But the fear of a snowflake leading to the worse case scenario so let's go home reaction does not serve anyone well.
I agree with you in principle. Impulsive shoot-from-the-hip decisions are not the best thing for us as individuals or for large organizations of any kind including New Jersey Transit. But I think we need to consider that while they are still reeling from Sandy and have worked hard and successfully to restore service after Sandy they are suddenly hit by the snow storm. Perhaps they were a little too cautious. But there are worse faults, a lot worse. I can live with the way NJT reacted this time.
For an older guy like I am you have the passion of a 20 year old. I don't have that passion but I admire you for it.
henry6 The only "S" word that fits is "scared"! They have the equipment, the people, the knowledge, ability, and the track today that allows for much better service than provided. Lawyers and insurance companies have intimidated politicians and their managers into being scared of doing anything, There have been commuters for over 150 years who made it to the station to ride to and from work without the interference of lawyers and the like. If you know your job, you can do it with safety and intelligence. I you don't know how, you become a politician or a politicians handmaiden. Sorry, there is being cautious and there is being scared and afraid to do anything. I am not saying doing anything that hasn't been done before: run trains to keep the tracks clear. Don't give up at the prospect of a snow flake. Honestly doing a job with intelligence and skill is more macho than claiming you have to have an arsenal of military weaponry. Yet we wave guns rather than rolling up sleeves and applying ourselves. The latter is the American ethic I know and honor, not the former that seems to rule. We are so full of contradictions.
The only "S" word that fits is "scared"! They have the equipment, the people, the knowledge, ability, and the track today that allows for much better service than provided. Lawyers and insurance companies have intimidated politicians and their managers into being scared of doing anything, There have been commuters for over 150 years who made it to the station to ride to and from work without the interference of lawyers and the like. If you know your job, you can do it with safety and intelligence. I you don't know how, you become a politician or a politicians handmaiden. Sorry, there is being cautious and there is being scared and afraid to do anything. I am not saying doing anything that hasn't been done before: run trains to keep the tracks clear. Don't give up at the prospect of a snow flake. Honestly doing a job with intelligence and skill is more macho than claiming you have to have an arsenal of military weaponry. Yet we wave guns rather than rolling up sleeves and applying ourselves. The latter is the American ethic I know and honor, not the former that seems to rule. We are so full of contradictions.
Henry, this is not 1950 anymore. Even if you straight rail your mainline, one obstruction (tree or wires) on a track, and now you have to go out and clean the interlockings so you can get around it - or wait until the handful of mow/cs guys left on the system can get out there. There are still many aspects of railroading that need PEOPLE. The numbers of which just aren't around like they used to be. And the last thing you want to do is strand a train with passengers on it for a few hours. Because we will all hear about it on youtube and facebook and it will create a political nightmare. I doubt the passengers will be too understanding of having to wait for something on the track to be cleared up, the patient animals we are.
And no, I don't believe the railroads should risk injury to their crews, or damage to millions of dollars of locomotives, cars and ROW just to shuffle a few people around. That isn't foolish in my book. Even freight railroads that do this thing for profit have figured out when it makes sense to stop running certain trains in bad weather.
Amtrak managed to keep running during the blizzard of 1996 that dumped over 30" on Phila and two feet or so all the way up to Boston - complete with drifting snow. I believe the way you do it is to "straight rail" the interlockings so that you have a through route, one track in each direction - and leave it alone. Then, run trains to keep the line clear.
The big trick is getting the crews to work from home. You could pre-position them in hotels and put them up when getting their rest at "home".
They've done it before. Maybe they forgot how. New operating dept VP at Amtrak these days.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Maybe something besides the anger?
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