henry6They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
As you can see, Henry, when you posted this last December 28 you started me thinking about it. The difference, of course, was that private railroads had no sense of public responsibility. Or am I being too harsh? I would like to see a better reason for these kinds of decisions but that is the best one I can come up with.
John
Yes, Cudahy's book...long time since I read it and so forgot! Important study of the Tubes and PRR....
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Incorrectly set signals is a mistake one can't afford!
One interesting point: to this very day, the PATH equipment is FRA compliant, including the buff-draft regulations appropriate to 'main-line' railroads, as a consequence of the joint PRR operation.
See here, for example, for some idea of what the "Joint Service Electric Railroad" operations involved.
Naturally, 'regular' PRR trains did not operate through the actual Tubes, but there is no more 'difficulty' running a PRR train to Jersey City between two scheduled H&M trains than there would be, say, in operating a diesel-powered work train between two subway trains. Meanwhile, PRR did own a percentage of the Tube-spec cars. Brian Cudahy (in 'Rails Under the Mighty Hudson, 1975) had a good discussion of the practicalities of the joint operation,including these details (taken from a railfan.net posting years ago):
".......only PRR-owned cars were ever equipped with cab signals during the 'joint service' days; the MP-38's and the 'K' cars were all so equipped, and only PRR cars could be positioned at the front and rear of trains; H&M equipment could only be placed in mid-train positions......" ".......during the old 'joint service' days, the H&M actually and literally shared trackage with the PRR beyond Journal Square, and motormen were required to pass a PRR book-of-rules examination. Since the line could be traveled by either a rapid transit or railroad train, smash-boards were installed at key points to prevent Pennsy engines from taking incorrectly set signals, and venturing onto tight trackage reserved for the shorter (and narrower) H&M/PATH equipment......."
I think this addresses the concerns you mentioned... but I strongly recommend that book as interesting further reading if you are interested in what is now the PATH service. (See Inchesco's post of Dec 9 in this thread for the Amazon URL)
RME
How many Newark stations were really there? I've known the history of the PRR for 14 years not but never recalled any articles on Park place or South street. I recently obtained the PR Triumph V New York To Phila. I know know that the first Station on Newark was on ground level with two tracks circa 1870. Then the second was circa 1913 4 tracks elevated, and the third one was built in 1935 to today with 6 tracks and one PATH track in the middle of six, and one upstairs. Funny I'm 28 years old and have been riding this line since 1988 and never knew that Newark had track H upstairs until about 2004.
I just realized how could the H&M had operated with PRR trains on the same track! The H&M was a rapid transit, and they operate on a frequent time slot. So how could they have coordinated schedules and signaling? It's like having PATH trains operating on the Morris & Essex county line trains to Hoboken and Northeast corridor to NYC Penn station with PATH traffic too! How was the H&M and PRR joint operation ever possible?
LOL! WOHAA HA HA HA!!! A PATH train to Florida!? Yeah OK!!! HAA HAA HAA!!! I bet you those folks can't tell the difference between diesel and electric. It's like hijacking a NYC subway train and demanding it to take them to California.
H&M never had freight on its lines. Journal Sq. to Newark had (has) two reverse signaled tracks for PATH. At one time there was PRR traffic on those tracks perhaps in the Meadows but only as running tracks not to service any place. Keeping H&M/PATH trains separate from any PRR/PC/CR/CSX/CSAO traffic is of highest priority and is how it is operated today.
This discussion reminds me of the guys back in the 70's or 80's who tried to hijack an PATH train on its way to Newark and demanded it take them to Florida!
Part of the H&M/PATH line to Newark was owned by PRR which is why it is occasionally referred to as the "Joint Operation" and why PRR owned some of the cars in that service. Position light signals were in operation on the line and there may have been some freight customers on the line that were served by PRR.
I've always thought that the PATH ROW has now fully been disconnected from Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. However I believe that there are still some switched that allow PATH to merge into Amtrak's main line on PATH's southbound track. The switches are clearly visible in this map: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/dock.gif It was rebuilt in May 22,1937 when Manhattan Transfer was removed and the last revision of the DOCK interlock was of April 29,1967 unless there has been another revision recently.
henry6It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
Yes, it was a different time with different dynamics at work.
Not only in New York City but also all over the country railroads would deliberately build their terminals unconnected to other railroads. For a long time some railroads would even refuse to haul cars from other railroads. The Central Pacific refused to accept cars from the Union Pacific at Ogden Utah. Passengers had to get off one train with their luggage and board another train. And as Robert L. Young famously pointed out a pig can travel coast to coast without changing trains but we human beings still cannot.
Such is the legacy of private railroad companies.
They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
henry6Yes and no. NYC and PRR were at each other's neck to get the Gotham traffic...and Manhattan Transfer was the result.
Yes, but these wise men of Gotham left us with a special curse: Their stations were built with no direct connection and to this day we live without it. To have gotten from GCT to the Manhattan Transfer a train would have had to gone north far enough to go back on the Hell Gate Bridge. With luck the bridge would be closed. Did any train ever do that?
The B&O was granted access to Penn Station to enhance the movement of passenger traffic between New York and Washington by the War Board during WW I and continuing until 1924 (I think).
Did the RDG-CNJ portion of the New York routing bring these trains to Manhattan Transfer so they could also get Electric power, or was Electric power added to these trains at some other location? I have never seen a B&O public timetable from this era.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
John WR PS. I don't think the New York Central & Hudson River RR had a lot to do with the Manhattan Transfer.
PS. I don't think the New York Central & Hudson River RR had a lot to do with the Manhattan Transfer.
Yes and no. NYC and PRR were at each other's neck to get the Gotham traffic...and Manhattan Transfer was the result....especially once NYC started laying the 3rd rail, PRR couldn't move fast enough to do the same.
As you point out, Henry, the Bergen Hill tunnels have ventilation shafts and they are not too long. I've gone through them on diesel trains many times with no problem for anyone.
As I understand it the City of New York passed an ordinance forbidding steam locomotives in the city. The NYC then started using electric locomotives. That was early in the last century.
The Bergen Hill Tunnels were well ventilated and short enough that steam was not a problem. Diesel fumes, however are and there are rules and guidelines. Steam in tunnels came to be a major problem in and out of GCT forcing electrification on the NYC. Some tunnels had giant fans to push steam out, others had doors and shafts, some were electrified until dieselization came about.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe first St. Clair Tunnel between Port Huron and Sarnia was operated with steam locomotives when it first opened. Several asphyxiation incidents forced the change to electric operation.
In some ways the good ol' days were pretty bad.
The first St. Clair Tunnel between Port Huron and Sarnia was operated with steam locomotives when it first opened. Several asphyxiation incidents forced the change to electric operation.
The Moffat Tunnel in Colorado was operated with steam locomotives. I don't think that Rio Grande ever considered electrifying the tunnel operation.
New Yorkers who use L for elevated train might find themselves confusing people who believe they refer to the L train.
I know DL&W steam locomotives ran through the Bergen HIll tunnel. But I can't believe steam engines ran through long tunnels.
And some New Yorkers and all Chicagoans used the abreviation "L" and not "El."
And some steam rapid transit trains did run in tunnels, notably in London. Also on Atlantic Avenue (LIRR) service in Brooklyn (much shorter than the existing subway of course, but with "L" type equpment including Chicago Forneys displaced by electrificaiton) and Park Avenue Manhattan.
CSSHEGEWISCHIn Chicago, we call it the "L", not the "El" or some other term invented by unknowing outlanders.
In New York before there were subways there were elevated railways. There are still some. The name was shortened to "El" and is pronounced like the letter "L."
Originally elevated trains were pulled by steam engines. They could not possibly have been put in tunnels.
One minor correction: In Chicago, we call it the "L", not the "El" or some other term invented by unknowing outlanders.
Depends if I feel like gambling and risk swallowing the loss if I book too far in advance. Or gamble that there is space that morning. But if I do book Amtrak in advance, those I book for have to pay me in advance, too.
henry6Amtrak fares are demand marketed.
I find that what is important is to book 14 days or more in advance. But given the nature of what you do I don't know if that is possible.
John WR henry6And Acela fares east of NY are lower I think. I went back and checked again. Amtrak Acela for Wednesday January 30 in the morning is $70. The Northeast Regional fare is $27. Again, it would be possible to return by Metro North via Grand Central Terminal.
henry6And Acela fares east of NY are lower I think.
I went back and checked again. Amtrak Acela for Wednesday January 30 in the morning is $70. The Northeast Regional fare is $27. Again, it would be possible to return by Metro North via Grand Central Terminal.
Amtrak fares are demand marketed...the closer to departure, the fewer remaining space, the more costly the ticket. Six months out you can get a good price, six minutes out you shovel out a lot.. The problem my ridewithmehenry trips have with Amtrak is that often we don't know sometimes until a week or less before hand or the weather or something else at the last minute could cancel the trip..
Yes. I use railroad directions. All west of the Hudson away from the Hudson to Albany, Port Jervis, Hackettstown, Gladstone, High Bridge, Princeton, and Bay Head are railroad direction west. From GCT, to Poughkeepsie and Wassaic are old school railroad westbound but MNRR northbound; CT destinations are all east and always have been. All LIRR out of NYP, LIC, and Brooklyn are eastbound. From Philly to Atlantic City is southbound.
You can follow railroad directions as: odd number trains are westbound or north bound'; even numbered trains are eastbound or southbound. There are exceptions and weird situations, of course, but these are the rules of thumb. Up here in BIngahmton the D&H was a north-south railroad and all others east-west. Any D&H train from Albany to BInghamton was southbound and Binghamton to Albany was northbound. There was, however, a D&H train which was designated a southbound because it went to Sayre, PA. It was a westbound train on the Erie then an eastbound train on the Lehigh Valley from Owego, NY to Sayre, PA, then returned westbound on the LV to Owego, eastbound on the Erie to Binghamton but still carded as a northbound on the D&H. The LV carded a similar turn train with the same directional designations as Sayre was west of Jersey City and away from Sayre all was westbound. These were freight trains, mind you. But if you look at a passenger train timetable you can see the train numbers and determine the railroad direction...and usually the actual direction, too.
By east do you mean toward Boston?
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