I once found a large detailed blueprint map on the internet of the track diagram from Newark to Penn Sta NY in circa 1910. Where can I find this link again? I also believe that before Penn station Newark was rebuilt in 1935 the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad now (PATH) tracks did interchange with thePRR's mainline to Penn Sta NY and Jersey City. Thus the PATH route is physically isolated from Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, though there is a 60 degree diamond close to the yard facility grade crossing and why won't they remove that diamond. it's messy for the infrastructure.
If the diamond is on a low-speed yard lead, it probably won't be replaced until the time comes for other necessary trackwork in the immediate vicinity.
I don't believe Manhattan Transfer involved the H&M in anyway. It was where the PRR exchanged steam locomotives in favor of electric motors to carry trains into New York's Pennsylvania Station. The railroad would "split" just east of there for trains to Penn Sta. and to Jersey City Exchange Pl station. H&M tubes shared the right of way but did not stop at Manhattan Transfer. Journal Square would be the place where the might have been some kind of interchange, actually west of the station probably. The PRR interchanged with the West Shore and the Erie and the Susquehanna at nearby Marion Jct. in Jersey City's Journal Sq. area.
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I believe that the H&M also used to stop at Manhattan transfer, so that people going to lower Manhattan would also change trains there after Newark. Dd you know that the PRR at one time made a stop at Harrison station on it's own platform, now removed which the tracks were still separated from the H&M now PATH tracks.
The PRR Harrison station is the same one that PATH uses today only with it's own platforms possibly island so one can switch to a north or southbound without using stairs to cross over. Im only 27 years old and have been familiar with the line since 1987 and never used the PATH until 1993 and never knew that the PRR had a stop at Harrison until someone on this forum mentioned that the PRR had a platform at todays Harrison station. I will look more into this. If the PRR had platforms when were they removed? I wonder.
There are several good books about the building of Pennsylvania Station in NY that take up the subject of Manhattan Transfer, both by women: one by Lorraine Diehl and the other by ________Jonas. In addition there are book about the PRR, H&M Tubes (PATH), and NJ railroading. A trip to any NJ library should get you any or all of them.
But Henry, wouldn't the Manhattan transfer had to involve PRR and H&M trains? In those days New York Penn Station was actually in Jersey City and you had to take a ferry to Manhattan. That may have worked for people coming across the country with steamer trunks but Charlie Commuter sure would have found it better to hop on a H&M train to the then downtown H&M terminal or Herald Square (even with changes).
No, H&M had nothing to do with it. The transfer was first and foremost for changing from steam to electric locomotive (and vice versa) so that the train could go on to the new Pennsylvania Station in New York City while the steamer lumbered off to Jersey City...maybe with part of the train, too. It was strictly a PRR station and not H&M.
I'll take your word, Henry, that the Manhattan Transfer was used only to change engines on PRR passenger trains.
But I have to wonder who, if New York bound passengers were not changing trains, was changing trains and where were they going.
I'm not sure I follow your second sentence here, John. Up to that time all PRR trains went to Exchange Pl. in Jersey City. When Penn Sta. was built with its electric system, locomotives were changed at Manahattan Transfer. Exchange Place remained a PRR terminal until the end of the 50's with ferry terminal and Tube connections there and trains, steam then diesel, were serviced and yarded there. The major change and lack of need for Manhattan Transfer came when the PRR strung wires from Sunnyside Yard in Queens to D.C. and Harrisburg so that they did not have to make the changeover anymore. Again, any books on the PRR in NJ or the two more recent books about Penn Station itself, available at all NJ libraries I am sure, can explain it all better than I.
Henry,
Let me clarify. The name "Manhattan Transfer" suggests that this was a station where people did actually change trains. I have not read a lot about it (except descriptions of John DosPassos' novel) but the pictures I've seen shows a platform for people to stand on while making the change. If the only thing done was to change engines why have a platform at all? And why call it "Manhattan Transfer?"
Passenger transfer did indeed occur at Manhattan Transfer between the "Hudson and Manhattan", predecessor of PATH, and the PRR. Brian J. Cudahy's "Rails under the Mighty Hudson" includes a section on Manhattan Transfer and a schematic diagram of the track layout.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rails+under+the+mighty+hudson
Bobinchesco Passenger transfer did indeed occur at Manhattan Transfer between the "Hudson and Manhattan", predecessor of PATH, and the PRR. Brian J. Cudahy's "Rails under the Mighty Hudson" includes a section on Manhattan Transfer and a schematic diagram of the track layout. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rails+under+the+mighty+hudson
Johnny
Johnny,
You say that in 1930 PRR trains stopped at Manhattan Transfer but my 1937 they did not.
I suspect this is because by 1937 the current Newark Penn Station was open. PATH trains ran into the station (and still do) so there was no longer a need for the Manhattan Transfer.
Since many if not most New York commuters work down town it makes more sense for them to transfer to the Newark--World Trade Center PATH train rather than go to NYP at 34th Street and then take a subway back down town.
John
In 1930 PRR trains would have required the engine change from DD1s or L5s to steam. By 1937 the P5as and GG1s ran through on the new 11000 VAC overhead.
RC
Well, yes. By 1937 PRR could run directly into NY Penn Station with no change of engines. But most New Jersey commuters who work in Manhattan work in lower Manhattan rather than mid town. This is still true today. To get to lower Manhattan it makes more sense to change at Newark from the NEC train to the World Trade Center PATH train.
Another good book to read about the H&M, PRR connection is The Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Revisited by Paul Carleton published in 1990. Although never actually owned by the PRR, both worked hand in hand and worked together on car and electrical/signal design. Many of the H&M components were taken directly from PRR systems.
The original Newark Station, located at Park Place, was also a joint venture between PRR and H&M as was the Manhattan Transfer.
There are still locations where Amtrak and PATH right of ways connect (via switches). One being just outside of Harrison Yards. This is a sore point with the Port Authority as the FRA refuses to allow the PA to remove the switches as this would allow the PATH to become a true subway system and change the design of their cars.
Alan
But the Hudson and Manhattan was owned by the PRR through the 50's in fact. H&M second generation cars even had PRR keystone emblems and PRR was written all over the property..
I don't think that there is any point that the PATH and Amtrak tracks connect directly. They do but not directly straightforward. It's like how the NYC subway connects to the regional railroad system via yards like Coney Island to the South Brooklyn Railroad. They used to before 1935 when the new Market street in Newark was built. However, the PATH ROW might be connected to the Morris and Essex county lines and the Lackawanna cutoff and freight tracks. which are connected to the Northeast Corridor mainline.
henry6 But the Hudson and Manhattan was owned by the PRR through the 50's in fact. H&M second generation cars even had PRR keystone emblems and PRR was written all over the property..
H&M was never owned by PRR. The cars in question had split ownership, half were owned by PRR and half were owned by H&M. This was due to the fact that PRR owned the line into Newark Penn Station and H&M had operating rights on that line.
OK am I the only one who saw "Manhattan Transfer" and thought of these people??
watch?v=B7YsE wQn9c
Possibly you were. There was another Manhattan Transfer, too, back when. I believe it was on the BMT someplace and has since been renamed..but I don't have the information here at hand.
Checked Brian Cudahy's Rails Under the Hudson, his book about the early years of the PRR electrification. He has a great track diagram of MT and copy that shows that H&M was indeed integrated totally with the PRR in and out of MT. A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn't stopping!. Cudahy also explained that the H&M connections to the PRR tracks were removed when MT was demolished; that the station had no access but by PRR or M&H trains; and that the "high line" fill covers most of it now.
I still believe the PRR and PC owned and operated the system until the mid 50's. The H&M may never lost its identity but the operation and company was under the control of the PRR until it set it free because of bankruptcy of the Tubes. PRR did the same with the LIRR in 1949/50.
I've heard PATH trains referred to as a "Toonerville Trolley" because the cars are so small, far smaller than standard railroad cars.
I believe I was always aware that rapid transit cars were only shorter not smaller and rapid transit cars are proportional to railroad standards in terms of size. I don't think the PATH cars are smaller there just shorter. Shorter does not mean smaller in height. Rapid transit cars are heavy for their own size because of the motors.
This is the map I once saw: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
alloboard This is the map I once saw: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
This is the map I once saw:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
activated
alloboard I believe I was always aware that rapid transit cars were only shorter not smaller and rapid transit cars are proportional to railroad standards in terms of size. I don't think the PATH cars are smaller there just shorter. Shorter does not mean smaller in height. Rapid transit cars are heavy for their own size because of the motors.
PATH equipment has a similar clearance diagram to CTA and it's pretty tight. Consider that CTA equipment can be transported on flatcars and still be within railroad clearances. Although they are appreciably longer, I can remember seeing the NYCTA R-46 cars being transported on flatcars on the IHB in a regular transfer run.
Rapid transit equipment is generally shorter, narrower and not as tall as conventional railroad equipment.
henry6 A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn't stopping!.
A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn't stopping!.
The North Shore had similar gauntlets on both the Skokie Valley and Shore line (1940 relocation). At least one station on the NEC had or has gauntlets so freight cars will clear the high level platforms.
How long are the PATH cars? CTA has stuck with 47 feet and 8' 8" wide for a pretty long time.
Length and width of rapid transit cars vary. H&M, Staten Island RR, IRT, and Chicago Transit cars have always bee short because of the almots 90 degree curves. Other, later, lines opened up the curvature and allow for longer cars. In some cases articulated cars were tried!
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