As stated in the News Wire, the University of Minnesota objects to Light Rail through the middle of campus because all of the details have not been worked out. It claims the trains will destroy the solemnity of its research facility. The rail system will go down the main street through the campus. This road is filled with a hundred or so buses (including large articulated ones), trucks, cars, and every other type of vehicle. Some how these buses driving through a pot hole dotted street (especially after the spring thaw) don't shake the buildings, but the train driving on smooth track is going to knock every gerbil off his perch.
The U wants every engineering detail worked out so that it can determine if it will be affected. The rail system is still under design and wanting to provide those details later in the process.
This is another part of the Lawyer Full Employment Act.
Could it be that vibrations from the construction would harm the research equipment?
Vibrations disturbing delicate research equipment? Hmmmmmmm...........I think we have heard this one before.
Why is Minnesota research equipment so much more delicate than anyone else's?
First of all, Washington Avenue through the University of Minnesota campus was a route of those big yellow streetcars TCRT used to run until 1954. I live in the Twin Cities and feel that the Hiawatha line was the right thing to do; But this central corridor is a MISTAKE and should not be built. Fifty years from now people will ask who the built this disaster waiting to happen. The University doesn't want it. The St Paul Fire Department asked just how do we answer fire calls from our two stations on University Avenue in St Paul. The Metropolitan Council doesn't seem to care about that either. They seem that they will build it regardless. This route has been served by Buses since 1954 and should be served by buses in 2054. There are many other areas in the Twin Cities who would benefit from Light Rail and commuter rail like the Northstar. The loons win,and the people lose.
There are arguments that construction may affect research labs. However, they also claim that electromagnetic fields from the overhead wire may affect the labs. Don't tell them that the lines in their basement have much higher voltages.
And yes it may appear that this line is build in the wrong place, but there are those who believe in the "build it and tney will come" school of transit. The Hiawatha line has already met its ridership projections for 2020 (or something like that) and giving rail access to downtown St. Paul will change University Avenue forever. Since there is so little history of restoring rail service in urban areas, we don't really know how to estimate the effects of a rail system in an area previously unserved.
And for those not in the Twin Cities, there are at least 4 alternate routes between downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul. Because of the large number of bus riders to the University of Minnesota, the planners can justify the proposed light rail line from the U riders. The only real problem with the chosen route is that most if it is street running down the major thoroughfare between the two cities. This will affect traffic on this street, but hopefully the fewer buses and cars will offset the loss of lanes to that street. Street cars failed in the Twin Cities because so much of it was street running and cars and trolleys couldn't survive together. And believe it or not, wherever the trolleys ran, the trolley company had to maintain that street. This was in spite of the fact the trolleys didn't cause wear and tear on the streets. This was an artifact of the original trolley franchises.
I am absolutely convinced that it is one big lie that streetcars and autos cannot share a lane. They did so successfully in many large USA cities and do so in parts of Toronto and Portland OR and Philadelphia and lots of European cities today. I have never encountered an improvement in either transit service or the speed of traffic when buses replaced streetcars on streets except when: (1) the streetcars were old and decrepit and/or the track poorly maintained, (2) the track layout rediculous in terms of other traffic, like wrong-way running, bi-direcitonal single track in a bidirectional street, wye reversal of single-end cars at the end of the line in traffic, really bad loading and unloading locations, and readers can probably give a few other examples. Fortunately, now, Toronto and Philadelphia are free of such bad track arrangements. or at least relatively free. Of course, Private right of way or reserved lanes are better.
Where is Jesse Ventura, when you need him? Does UMN offer a major in "NIMBY-ism"? If not, they could import some highly experienced "professors" from nearby hotbeds in SD, or even NY, MA, and VA. I would bet they are just looking for 'grant money' to 'study' the percieved problem.
Hays, in the home of U of M (Montana, that is). Well, I guess there are about 16 other U of Ms., like Maine, Mass., Miss., etc.. Rather provincial, but they all call themselves "U of M". Then, again, they are educating our children, somewhat! Right?
If it wasn't for Jesse Ventura,we would not have light rail In Minnesota. If it were up to some of the people on the right that inhabit our legislature, transit in Minnesota would be cars and freeways only.We also have others at various levels in our state including the Metropolitan Council who have become instant transportation experts. They don't go to Ride Metra in Chicago or GO in Toronto, they listen to special interests who want light rail to meet their special needs, not move people. They have no clue whether light rail would work on a particular route. They think that a very limited schedule will do quite nicely. No service on Saturdays or Sundays or any off peak service for the new Northstar commuter rail? We in Minnesota are in the transit stone age; way behind Dallas, Denver, Phoenix, Portland or Seattle, and Minnesota doesn't realize just how far behind we really are.
Here in San Diego on the Trolley's Green Line, the campus of San Diego State University was a PRIMARY reason to build on to the campus (it could have passed on by). Westside approach is a 4 percent grade. With two tunnels (cut and cover) the longest being more than 1/3 mile and an underground light rail station with the buses overhead a true transit center was built that carries thousands of students and faculty daily to and from the campus. Parking at outlying SDTrolley stations is free, No longer are the on campus parking passes called "Hunting Permits". It doesn't replace the car, it's an adjunct to the car. It's also "green" technology. Why wouldn't an institute of higher learning WANT this on their campus?
I am far from a light rail expert, but I can contribute a few things we have learned here in Charlotte as we build our light rail system.
The first line has been up and running for almost 2 years. CATS (Charlotte Area Transit system) uses Siemens Avanto S-70 low floor trams. They are smooth and quiet. If you stand right beside the tracks you cannot hear it pass if a bus or truck is going by on the parallel road. The overhead catanery is 700 volts. That is much lower voltage than the lines on the telephone poles running down the parallel road. The next segment, which is currently in the engineering stage, is going a couple of miles out of it's way specifically to serve UNC.
The original plans were for 300 foot platforms so that 3 unit trains could be run, but the naysayers and the federal modeling system said the estimates were not realistic, and as a condition of federal participation, they had to reduce the parking lot sizes and shorten the platforms. From day one, the passenger load has been far in excess of the prediction. CATS has ordered more trainsets, is enlarging the parking lots, and is trying to find the money to lengthen the platforms.
CATS runs single trainsets every 15 minutes most of the time and double trainsets every 7 1/2 minutes during rush hour. The most common complaint they get about rush hour light rail service is that the trains are too crowded and it's hard to find a place to park at the stations. It runs 7 days a week. Frequent service is important to riders. A person taking mass transit to their destination needs to know that the return service is readily available. Having to wait 30 minutes or hours for a train or bus will drive passengers to their cars.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Wowser! Youse gotz it all wrong, boy! I wish this was a forum for political discussion, but it ain't. Feel free to BC/PM me and I'll screw your head on right, or not! Uff da!!! Ingenting a takke for. Slukk lyset.
Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
As a kid, I learned to talk in Charlotte. Then we moved to NY and I got my southern accent beat out of me. I have some "Phoebe Snow" stories. BC/PM me, if you want to hear them.
Bill Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
petitnjThe other problem with this route is that it crosses all the major north/south streets in St. Paul. That should make it very slow.
Actually if the traffic lights are activated by the light rail as they approach each intersection should make the line rather speedy!
petitnj As stated in the News Wire, the University of Minnesota objects to Light Rail through the middle of campus because all of the details have not been worked out. It claims the trains will destroy the solemnity of its research facility.
As stated in the News Wire, the University of Minnesota objects to Light Rail through the middle of campus because all of the details have not been worked out. It claims the trains will destroy the solemnity of its research facility.
LOL :-)
Guess we must be a lot less "solemn" over here in Oslo, Norway, then. Here is a map showing a small part of Oslo, northwest of downtown, just inside the major ring road (our equivalent of the 494/694 Interstate bypasses around the Twin Cities).
Green area on the right is the Vetrinary College, the two blue/grey areas are big hospitals, light blue is our main TV channel campus, two yellow areas are the University of Oslo main campus, and the University of Oslo Research Park. The University of Oslo has about 35 000 students.
Dashed lines is "subway" (which is actually third rail, above ground in this area, on a dedicated right of way), T in circle denotes stations.
Dotted lines are "trams" (overhead catenary wires, partly in roads, partly on dedicated right of way), icons are tram stops.
Both subways and trains are on 10-minute schedules (ie they run every 10 minutes).
In addition the area has bus service along the major ring roads circling the city center.
Maybe the University of Minnesota should send some researchers to Norway to look at light rail through campus areas - climate in SE Norway is milder than in Minnesota in the winter, too :-)
Grin, Stein
Only slightly off-topic:
Theo Spark: Song of the Day: 'UFF DA MINNESOTA'
I wonder if UMinn is willingly serving as the point man for a lot of others who live in the area and don't want the light rail line. I also believe that Mayo Clinic served a similar role in Rochester.
Interesting that so many light rail systems are designed to run thru major universities. And yes some heavy rail systems do too. I am just pointing out the general attitude of the NIMBYs now is to throw up every red flag they can to prevent progress. The din of buses and trucks thru the present U of MN campus is amazing. And in rush hour times, the traffic on campus grinds to a halt causing great plumes of pollution. The light rail designers have offered to use padded rail mounts that will not transmit vibrations to the ground, but of course the University wants to see the results of a full blown test. The transit designers have also offered to shield the power lines but again the University wants to see the results of a test. I wonder what else they will gen up to hold up progress on a system that should have been in place years ago.
That is nothing new. NIMBYs and BANANAs have been using historic preservation and environmental protection red herrings to stall or defeat progress for 40 years. Most of the time the attempt to preserve some ramshackle old building is actually a thinly disguised attempt to prevent construction of something new.
Colleges are usually proponents of mass transit because they benefit greatly from mass transit. They have a huge young, often from out of town, population and a huge parking problem. Perhaps someone from the area can explain why this particular college is against the project.
One of the big advantages of rail is it's segregation from the uncertainties of traffic and it's ebb and flow, so I often wonder at the logic of putting the tracks in the street.
Okay. I give up! What is a BANANA? That's new, to me. I await, with 'bated breath, the explination!
Methinks that "Tenured Professors" (those that don't teach, no?) are against everything that doesn't line their pockets. Give them a 'grant' and they are all for you!
"BANANA" stands for "Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything". 'Nuff said?
Yar! Mayo Clinic was the big NIMBY leader opposing the D&MEs bid to get to the Powder River coal. I, personally, have no respect for the Mayo Clinic, either in Rochester or Jacksonville, FL, having lost some great friends under their "care". You'd think they would have better things to do, like practice medicine. Sorry if this post isn't PC.
Sorry I missed this, on first perusal. You would think that the screech of steel wheels, on steel rails, would be a welcome addition to the "solemnity of the research facility". It would drown out the death-cries of the hampsters, guinea pigs, gerbils, and monkeys! Where is "PETA" when we need them? Uff da! Looking out for the rights of Chihuahuas, I guess....
Hays
If our light rail here in Charlotte is typical, then the people indoors at the university would not even be aware that it was passing by.
I eat regularly in a restaurant right across the street from the Blue Line, and unless I happen to be looking out the window when it passes I am unaware. It is VERY quiet. On the other hand, when a NS freight goes by the floor vibrates under my feet and there is a lot of noise.
Perhaps it is because we don't have any sharp curves, but I have never heard any wheel noise at all.
There is a blurb, in the latest "Trains Newswire" about three mayors, of cities adjacent to Charlotte, objecting to transit expansion. What be the skinny? Weren't free peanuts distributed and palms greased? "Jimmuh", where are you when we need you?
Love the "BANANA" acronym! I'll use it!
First a little background.
CATS is expanding transit financed primarily with a dedicated 1/2 % sales tax with State and Federal help.
Charlotte was home to the corporate headquarters of Bank of America and Wachovia, two of the largest banks in the US. Wachovia has been purchased by Wells Fargo, and so is no longer headquartered here and between the two banks hundreds of very high paid jobs have been eliminated.
As a result, of that and the national economic slump, the sales tax revenue on which CATS depends heavily is down significantly. That has caused CATS to slow down it's construction schedule.
The Feds have declined to participate in the Purple Line because their statistical model predicts it will not have enough passengers. That is the same statistical model that so greatly under estimated the use of the Blue Line. CATS has decided to build it anyway. That plan was originally fought by the mayors you mentioned.
Under the original plan, the Purple Line commuter rail up through the suburbs you mentioned and the 11 mile extension of the existing Blue Line light rail were to be built simultaneously, followed closely by a street car through city center. CATS can no longer afford that. They are now deciding which of those lines to build first. The same communities who didn't want the Purple Line built are now screaming because it looks like the Blue Line will be built first. The Purple Line will be much cheaper and much faster to build because it just involves upgrading to 79 MPH passenger standards, an existing NS freight line while the Blue Line requires a lot of new right of way and electrification. But both the Feds and the State will probably participate in the Blue Line, but not in the Purple Line. In the mean time, the city of Charlotte has just funded (overriding the Mayor's veto) an engineering study for the street car line.
Time will tell.
NIMBYism is in part the reaction to the destruction of neighborhoods during the highway building boom and urban renewal of the 1950's and 1960's, where once a route or redevelopment parcel was selected, opposition was futile and ignored. Consequently, any development proposals of any kind are viewed with a lot of skepticism.
Actually NIMBY is another word for Conservative. It is resistance to or suspicion of change. NIMBYs are not bad people, they are just afraid of the consequences of change. "It will harm my property value", "It will raise my taxes", "It will be ugly and will ruin my view", "It will bring the wrong sort of people into my neighborhood", "It will increase traffic in my neighborhood", etc. "It's working now, let's not change it."
NIMBYs have been with us as long as we have existed. The cattle farmers in the old west were against fences and sheep farmers. Middle Eastern societies are afraid to let their women go to school. For 200 years we have been afraid of immigrants. In NY I saw people running surveyors off their property at gunpoint because they were afraid of a million volt power line they were about to build. And of course the most obvious example is the current hysterical opposition to the long overdue attempt to fix health insurance. It's not obstructionism, It's fear.
Phoebe VetActually NIMBY is another word for Conservative. It is resistance to or suspicion of change.
Actually NIMBY is another word for Conservative. It is resistance to or suspicion of change.
NIMBY is another word for Reactionary, not conservative. My impression is that NIMBY's come from all parts of the political spectrum.
Phoebe Vet:
In my metropolitan area, dominated by one of the largest eatern colleges, we have plenty of NIMBYS and just about all of them have OBAMA and VOTE DEMOCRAT bumper stickers on their cars!
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