petitnj This saga continues as the state legislature is bringing the University of Minnesota and the Metro Council's planning group together to solve this problem. The University refuses to give up and there is fear that the system will be delayed if an agreement cannot be made in the next couple of months.
This saga continues as the state legislature is bringing the University of Minnesota and the Metro Council's planning group together to solve this problem. The University refuses to give up and there is fear that the system will be delayed if an agreement cannot be made in the next couple of months.
Of course, this would be the same legislature that took 30 years to pass a light rail bill in the first place !!
YEEEE! Doggies!
Sounds like Rochester and Mayo, all over again!
Page Chad, and have him set up the popcorn and beer concession...
Looks like the circus is back in Minnesota!
Yes, the north end of the main campus has a roundabout that was originally a loop for the Intercampus Trolley. I think it was some of the last trolleys to run as I can remember the cars running in my childhood. And yes the trolleys ran thru both sides of campus.
And this is the University that couldn't wait for the 35W bridge to be rebuilt so they could get those noisy buses out of the neighborhood (with special lanes from remote parking lots). and get back to bumper to bumper automobiles on campus.
I think what's most frustrating about the U of MN situation to me is that they whined and complained about wanting the originally planned line moved, and then once they go their way, started to complain even worse about the new routing that basically they had chosen. Keep in mind not only as a previous poster mentioned, TCRT streetcars used to run along the same line, they actually used to run on campus - there's still a big "roundabout" type road on campus where U of MN route streetcars would drop off and pick up students and U workers.
I'd have preferred a line more like the present Hiawatha line, with a dedicated right-of-way and fewer stops. The on-street streetcars were OK until the suburbs started to explode after WW2, then the lack of a separate right-of-way made the streetcars too slow...and of course, once the interstate highways came along it magnified the problem. Plus the streetcar line going to the south ended at the Minneapolis border, so they would have had to build new lines to the booming suburbs of Richfield and Bloomington.
I lived in NY for most of my life where I saw lots of rattle snakes and a couple of copperheads. Now I have lived in Charlotte for 17 years and I have yet to see a snake. I know we have them but we must not be over run with them, or they are all hiding from me.
As for Phoebe Snow; I didn't like her music much anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uShtB_hIgmE
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Dam*! I was born in New Jersey (Muhlenberg Hospital [which has since gone out of business because of unpaid bills from the "indigents"], in Plainfield, Hudson County [which extracted more in taxes from the Central Railroad of New Jersey than it garnered in the entire state]). We moved to Charlotte, NC when I was four. I'm glad I didn't stay there! I really don't like snakes! Guess you won't be interested in my "Phoebe Snow" stories from Madison. I'm sure they aren't PC.
Hays
Guys:
I didn't say a word about Republicans vs Democrats.
I said conservative as in "because that's the way we've always done it." You know: "100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress."
alphas Phoebe Vet: In my metropolitan area, dominated by one of the largest eatern colleges, we have plenty of NIMBYS and just about all of them have OBAMA and VOTE DEMOCRAT bumper stickers on their cars!
Phoebe Vet:
In my metropolitan area, dominated by one of the largest eatern colleges, we have plenty of NIMBYS and just about all of them have OBAMA and VOTE DEMOCRAT bumper stickers on their cars!
I would hardly consider Barrington (see opposition to CN/EJ&E merger and Metra's Circle Route) to be a bastion of liberalism. Snobbery, perhaps but hardly liberalism.
Phoebe VetActually NIMBY is another word for Conservative. It is resistance to or suspicion of change.
Actually NIMBY is another word for Conservative. It is resistance to or suspicion of change.
NIMBY is another word for Reactionary, not conservative. My impression is that NIMBY's come from all parts of the political spectrum.
Actually NIMBY is another word for Conservative. It is resistance to or suspicion of change. NIMBYs are not bad people, they are just afraid of the consequences of change. "It will harm my property value", "It will raise my taxes", "It will be ugly and will ruin my view", "It will bring the wrong sort of people into my neighborhood", "It will increase traffic in my neighborhood", etc. "It's working now, let's not change it."
NIMBYs have been with us as long as we have existed. The cattle farmers in the old west were against fences and sheep farmers. Middle Eastern societies are afraid to let their women go to school. For 200 years we have been afraid of immigrants. In NY I saw people running surveyors off their property at gunpoint because they were afraid of a million volt power line they were about to build. And of course the most obvious example is the current hysterical opposition to the long overdue attempt to fix health insurance. It's not obstructionism, It's fear.
NIMBYism is in part the reaction to the destruction of neighborhoods during the highway building boom and urban renewal of the 1950's and 1960's, where once a route or redevelopment parcel was selected, opposition was futile and ignored. Consequently, any development proposals of any kind are viewed with a lot of skepticism.
First a little background.
CATS is expanding transit financed primarily with a dedicated 1/2 % sales tax with State and Federal help.
Charlotte was home to the corporate headquarters of Bank of America and Wachovia, two of the largest banks in the US. Wachovia has been purchased by Wells Fargo, and so is no longer headquartered here and between the two banks hundreds of very high paid jobs have been eliminated.
As a result, of that and the national economic slump, the sales tax revenue on which CATS depends heavily is down significantly. That has caused CATS to slow down it's construction schedule.
The Feds have declined to participate in the Purple Line because their statistical model predicts it will not have enough passengers. That is the same statistical model that so greatly under estimated the use of the Blue Line. CATS has decided to build it anyway. That plan was originally fought by the mayors you mentioned.
Under the original plan, the Purple Line commuter rail up through the suburbs you mentioned and the 11 mile extension of the existing Blue Line light rail were to be built simultaneously, followed closely by a street car through city center. CATS can no longer afford that. They are now deciding which of those lines to build first. The same communities who didn't want the Purple Line built are now screaming because it looks like the Blue Line will be built first. The Purple Line will be much cheaper and much faster to build because it just involves upgrading to 79 MPH passenger standards, an existing NS freight line while the Blue Line requires a lot of new right of way and electrification. But both the Feds and the State will probably participate in the Blue Line, but not in the Purple Line. In the mean time, the city of Charlotte has just funded (overriding the Mayor's veto) an engineering study for the street car line.
Time will tell.
There is a blurb, in the latest "Trains Newswire" about three mayors, of cities adjacent to Charlotte, objecting to transit expansion. What be the skinny? Weren't free peanuts distributed and palms greased? "Jimmuh", where are you when we need you?
Love the "BANANA" acronym! I'll use it!
If our light rail here in Charlotte is typical, then the people indoors at the university would not even be aware that it was passing by.
I eat regularly in a restaurant right across the street from the Blue Line, and unless I happen to be looking out the window when it passes I am unaware. It is VERY quiet. On the other hand, when a NS freight goes by the floor vibrates under my feet and there is a lot of noise.
Perhaps it is because we don't have any sharp curves, but I have never heard any wheel noise at all.
Sorry I missed this, on first perusal. You would think that the screech of steel wheels, on steel rails, would be a welcome addition to the "solemnity of the research facility". It would drown out the death-cries of the hampsters, guinea pigs, gerbils, and monkeys! Where is "PETA" when we need them? Uff da! Looking out for the rights of Chihuahuas, I guess....
Yar! Mayo Clinic was the big NIMBY leader opposing the D&MEs bid to get to the Powder River coal. I, personally, have no respect for the Mayo Clinic, either in Rochester or Jacksonville, FL, having lost some great friends under their "care". You'd think they would have better things to do, like practice medicine. Sorry if this post isn't PC.
"BANANA" stands for "Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything". 'Nuff said?
Okay. I give up! What is a BANANA? That's new, to me. I await, with 'bated breath, the explination!
Methinks that "Tenured Professors" (those that don't teach, no?) are against everything that doesn't line their pockets. Give them a 'grant' and they are all for you!
That is nothing new. NIMBYs and BANANAs have been using historic preservation and environmental protection red herrings to stall or defeat progress for 40 years. Most of the time the attempt to preserve some ramshackle old building is actually a thinly disguised attempt to prevent construction of something new.
Colleges are usually proponents of mass transit because they benefit greatly from mass transit. They have a huge young, often from out of town, population and a huge parking problem. Perhaps someone from the area can explain why this particular college is against the project.
One of the big advantages of rail is it's segregation from the uncertainties of traffic and it's ebb and flow, so I often wonder at the logic of putting the tracks in the street.
Interesting that so many light rail systems are designed to run thru major universities. And yes some heavy rail systems do too. I am just pointing out the general attitude of the NIMBYs now is to throw up every red flag they can to prevent progress. The din of buses and trucks thru the present U of MN campus is amazing. And in rush hour times, the traffic on campus grinds to a halt causing great plumes of pollution. The light rail designers have offered to use padded rail mounts that will not transmit vibrations to the ground, but of course the University wants to see the results of a full blown test. The transit designers have also offered to shield the power lines but again the University wants to see the results of a test. I wonder what else they will gen up to hold up progress on a system that should have been in place years ago.
I wonder if UMinn is willingly serving as the point man for a lot of others who live in the area and don't want the light rail line. I also believe that Mayo Clinic served a similar role in Rochester.
Only slightly off-topic:
Theo Spark: Song of the Day: 'UFF DA MINNESOTA'
petitnj As stated in the News Wire, the University of Minnesota objects to Light Rail through the middle of campus because all of the details have not been worked out. It claims the trains will destroy the solemnity of its research facility.
As stated in the News Wire, the University of Minnesota objects to Light Rail through the middle of campus because all of the details have not been worked out. It claims the trains will destroy the solemnity of its research facility.
LOL :-)
Guess we must be a lot less "solemn" over here in Oslo, Norway, then. Here is a map showing a small part of Oslo, northwest of downtown, just inside the major ring road (our equivalent of the 494/694 Interstate bypasses around the Twin Cities).
Green area on the right is the Vetrinary College, the two blue/grey areas are big hospitals, light blue is our main TV channel campus, two yellow areas are the University of Oslo main campus, and the University of Oslo Research Park. The University of Oslo has about 35 000 students.
Dashed lines is "subway" (which is actually third rail, above ground in this area, on a dedicated right of way), T in circle denotes stations.
Dotted lines are "trams" (overhead catenary wires, partly in roads, partly on dedicated right of way), icons are tram stops.
Both subways and trains are on 10-minute schedules (ie they run every 10 minutes).
In addition the area has bus service along the major ring roads circling the city center.
Maybe the University of Minnesota should send some researchers to Norway to look at light rail through campus areas - climate in SE Norway is milder than in Minnesota in the winter, too :-)
Grin, Stein
petitnjThe other problem with this route is that it crosses all the major north/south streets in St. Paul. That should make it very slow.
Actually if the traffic lights are activated by the light rail as they approach each intersection should make the line rather speedy!
As a kid, I learned to talk in Charlotte. Then we moved to NY and I got my southern accent beat out of me. I have some "Phoebe Snow" stories. BC/PM me, if you want to hear them.
Bill Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
Wowser! Youse gotz it all wrong, boy! I wish this was a forum for political discussion, but it ain't. Feel free to BC/PM me and I'll screw your head on right, or not! Uff da!!! Ingenting a takke for. Slukk lyset.
Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
I am far from a light rail expert, but I can contribute a few things we have learned here in Charlotte as we build our light rail system.
The first line has been up and running for almost 2 years. CATS (Charlotte Area Transit system) uses Siemens Avanto S-70 low floor trams. They are smooth and quiet. If you stand right beside the tracks you cannot hear it pass if a bus or truck is going by on the parallel road. The overhead catanery is 700 volts. That is much lower voltage than the lines on the telephone poles running down the parallel road. The next segment, which is currently in the engineering stage, is going a couple of miles out of it's way specifically to serve UNC.
The original plans were for 300 foot platforms so that 3 unit trains could be run, but the naysayers and the federal modeling system said the estimates were not realistic, and as a condition of federal participation, they had to reduce the parking lot sizes and shorten the platforms. From day one, the passenger load has been far in excess of the prediction. CATS has ordered more trainsets, is enlarging the parking lots, and is trying to find the money to lengthen the platforms.
CATS runs single trainsets every 15 minutes most of the time and double trainsets every 7 1/2 minutes during rush hour. The most common complaint they get about rush hour light rail service is that the trains are too crowded and it's hard to find a place to park at the stations. It runs 7 days a week. Frequent service is important to riders. A person taking mass transit to their destination needs to know that the return service is readily available. Having to wait 30 minutes or hours for a train or bus will drive passengers to their cars.
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