Railway Preservation in the UK

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, December 25, 2020 9:03 PM

here is a link  to the  very early steam engines and the concept of higher pressure to  operate the machine.  Also the first use of the concept of passing the hot gas thru flues.

Britain's Greatest Machines With Chris Barrie - S02E04: Trains - The Steam Pioneers (5.1 DPL II, HD) - YouTube

additional british history

The Story of Steam - British Steam Engines DVD - YouTube

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, November 20, 2020 10:57 AM

54light15

In the original movie, "Flight of the Phoenix" the airplane's engine is started with cartridges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter 

 

 

General Stewart demonstrates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IACjOvyx5hs  

Not a as dramatic, but here's a shotgun start of an FM-2 "Wildcat" fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65qrzgbTTcQ  

I remember reading in "Air Classics" magazine around 1970 or so of a "Wildcat" restoration.  The owner replaced the original shotgun starter with an electric one, because he considered an electric one more reliable, and he wasn't sure of the availability of the cartridges.  Obviously the owner of the plane in the video managed to find some.

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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, November 20, 2020 10:33 AM

In the original movie, "Flight of the Phoenix" the airplane's engine is started with cartridges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter 

 

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Thursday, November 19, 2020 10:15 PM

M636C

I only spent a day at sea on the Snipe, towing a gunnery target for a DDG. Starting the Deltics was a hit and miss affair, particularly if they had been out of use for a while. Ours were started by a cartridge, basically a shotgun round without the shot. We had four cartridges for Snipe and we used three on the starboard engine. Luckily the port engine started first time. Locomotive Deltics were started by motoring the DC generator. The nine cylinder wasn't needed that day, but I think it was started by motoring the generator.

The engines on the F4F Wildcats were also started by cartridge, with an example of the starting mechanism on display at the San Diego Aerospace Museum. One account of the Dec 7, 1941 attack was a pilot going through several cartridges before getting the engine to start.

On a related note, my dad served on the AM-281 "Quest" on its last deployment. The ship was powered by a pair of Alco 539's and the one concession to reducing magnetic signature was a concrete hull.

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Posted by seppburgh2 on Thursday, November 19, 2020 7:47 PM
OMG! I thought the FM OP engine was complicated to maintain, the Deltic makes it look as simple as a lawnmower! https://oldmachinepress.com/2019/09/05/napier-deltic-opposed-piston-diesel-engine/
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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 6:57 PM

Overmod

 

 
M636C
In those days, beer cans were steel and were the most magnetic item on the ship....

 

This gets me thinking about stainless Clevelands and the like ... reading between the lines this tells me the rods and cranks in these engines were a non-ferromagnetic alloy.

 

I have little doubt the Deltics had considerably more shp for the same engine-bay space and weight than the Crossleys they replaced... at least they did not mount them vertically with a generator at the bottom for electric drive. Dunce

 

I recall that one of the minehunter proposals of the 1990s was a ship built entirely of non magnetic stainless steel. I recall comments that this was referred to as the dream of the Executive Officer, among whose responsibilities would have been maintenance of the ship's paintwork.

The RAN puchased an Italian design entirely made of fibreglass. I was at a tedious meeting on software standards for engineering data, and at the conclusion of the meeting we were taken into an adjacent building where HMAS Huon (or at least its outer shell) was located. I didn't know that the ship had arrived in country and while only a relatively small ship, it looked big inside a building. The other unexpected thing was that the ship was fully painted, even to the red kangaroo on the stack. It was effectively the biggest plastic kit I ever expect to see...

There was also an equally big (obviously) mould for producing the (one piece) hulls for the follow on ships.

These had aluminium Isotta Fraschini diesels, which were hung from the deck above in an attempt to reduce the shock impact from a mine explosion.

All of this revives my memory of an Italian engine which combined many of the doubtful features of the Deltic and the EMD submarine "pancake" engines. This was called the "Quadrilateral" engine, with four crankshafts sitting vertically in the corners of the engine linked by four banks of opposed piston cylinders. I think this included a right angle drive in the base, so it wasn't necessary to mount a generator underneath.

While the generator was probably heavier than the 338 engine, I can't see why the generator could not be mounted above the engine, particularly in a ship full of lead acid batteries that would dominate any stability issues.

Peter 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 8:55 AM

M636C
In those days, beer cans were steel and were the most magnetic item on the ship....

This gets me thinking about stainless Clevelands and the like ... reading between the lines this tells me the rods and cranks in these engines were a non-ferromagnetic alloy.

I have little doubt the Deltics had considerably more shp for the same engine-bay space and weight than the Crossleys they replaced... at least they did not mount them vertically with a generator at the bottom for electric drive. Dunce

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 8:51 AM

SD70Dude
Paul Milenkovic

By the way, how do you change a "power assembly" on a Deltic Diesel?

You pull the engine out of the locomotive and return it to the factory, they built it, let them figure out how to fix it!

I didn't take Prof. Milenkovic for a troll, but this is vergin' on it... Smile

A Deltic no more has 'power assemblies' than a FM OP engine does; in fact a Deltic is so named because it is a triangular congeries of three inline OP engines sharing 3 crankshafts.  It would be very interesting to see and read the technical manuals Peter has.

As with the FM engine, there are no cylinder heads and no valves or valve gear.  On the other hand, as in the FM engine there is no good way to get pistons (or liners) out past the cranks without a certain amount of disassembly ... I'd think both of cranks and some of the gearing they drive.  The engine is not as tall as an OP of comparable bore and stroke, but wider of course, and as with a modern W-engine you can get a lot of displacement into a relatively short engine length.  This with no peculiar geometry of articulated master rods as in a radial (or Cooper-Bessemer diesel) or dotty mechanical contrivances as in a diesel Doxford or a Commer-knocker.

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 8:30 AM

Overmod

 

 
samfp1943
It is one of two ships of  the USN authorized to fly the flag "Jolly Roger".

 

Surface ships, that is. Wink

 

 

HMAS Anzac, on completion of a replenishnent at sea flew the flag of the "Vietnam Veterans Motorcycle Club", which was a skull and crossbones with the skull wearing an Australian Army "slouch" hat with the side clipped up. I can't recall the background colour, but it wasn't black.

The symbol was used in the 1974 movie "Stone" and is seen at this link on posters...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072209/?ref_=tt_mv_close

The VVMC formally requested the use of the logo from the movie production company, a splendid example of life replicating art...

Rock music was played at the conclusion of the RAS.

I think similar practices exist in the USN.

Peter

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 8:12 AM

SD70Dude

 

 
Paul Milenkovic

By the way, how do you change a "power assembly" on a Deltic Diesel?

 

 

You pull the engine out of the locomotive and return it to the factory, they built it, let them figure out how to fix it!

 

I think that was the case with the British Rail Class 55.

In the Royal Australian Navy, we were tougher than that. We set up a workshop to overhaul the 18 cylinder Deltics and the nine cylinder turbocharged versions (exclusively, I think). These were used in our "Bird" class minesweepers, a pair of the 18 cylinder engines providing propulsion and the nine cylinder powering the magnetic mine sweep. Effectively they didn't have anything that could be considered a "power assembly" and when the engines were overhauled, they were stripped to individual components, all of which were carefully examined and replaced if not up to specification. I think an overhaul was scheduled for every 3000 hours. The Deltics were basically aluminium castings, with steel pistons, cylinder liners, rods and crankshafts, all held in phase by an amazing gear train at the power take off end.

The aluminium was favoured since the ships were required to have a loww magnetic signature as a defence against magnetic mines, having a wooden hull on aluminium framing and largely aluminium superstructure. In those days, beer cans were steel and were the most magnetic item on the ship....

The "Bird" class were ex Royal Navy, and apparently they had been built with conventional Crossley engines but were refitted with the Deltics before transfer to the RAN. I have no idea why someone would have requested that.

I spent a week of "training" in the Deltic shop. I learnt a lot about the engine.

I only spent a day at sea on the Snipe, towing a gunnery target for a DDG. Starting the Deltics was a hit and miss affair, particularly if they had been out of use for a while. Ours were started by a cartridge, basically a shotgun round without the shot. We had four cartridges for Snipe and we used three on the starboard engine. Luckily the port engine started first time. Locomotive Deltics were started by motoring the DC generator. The nine cylinder wasn't needed that day, but I think it was started by motoring the generator.

I still have a couple of Deltic technical manuals.

Peter

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, November 16, 2020 6:25 PM

Paul Milenkovic

By the way, how do you change a "power assembly" on a Deltic Diesel?

You pull the engine out of the locomotive and return it to the factory, they built it, let them figure out how to fix it!

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 16, 2020 5:12 PM

samfp1943
It is one of two ships of  the USN authorized to fly the flag "Jolly Roger".

Surface ships, that is. Wink

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Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, November 14, 2020 1:47 PM

The 'Texas', IIRC is moored near the area of the Memorial for the 'Battle of San Jacinto' monumnent; East of Houston{actually appears to be in almost a tidal swamp land?]

Do not forget the Unknown C.S.S. submarine that was found in a bayou near N.O.L.A.  It sat at various around New Orleans 'ril about 1997 when it was moved to the State Museum in Baton Rouge.

There is a 'Virtual' submarine'experience' at the WWII Museum in NOLA. 'The last voyage' of the USS Tang.

At BR LA on the riverfron one can visit the Fletcher class destroyer USS KIDD [named for the admiral killed on the USSArizona 7Dec1942. It is one of two ships of  the USN authorized to fly the flag "Jolly Roger".

Out in Oklahoma, at Muskogee, one can visit the submarine at the War Memprial Park in Muskogee. The USS Batfish (& Museum). The difference with this displayed unit, is that it is now on dry land.Sigh

There's also the BB 55 USS North Carolina; its moored near Wilmington,NC (Harbor(?).  Have not been there is a number of years, but during the summer they used to have a 'battle' display at dusk when they had a secnario where the guns were 'fired' and there was an attendant 'sound and light' show. (?) It was pretty impressive.'

 

 

 


 

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Posted by NorthBrit on Saturday, November 14, 2020 12:17 PM

This  information should clear some misunderstanding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Pegler

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A3_4472_Flying_Scotsman

 

David

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, November 14, 2020 12:12 PM

I found some interesting reading concerning the USS Texas, from the time it began ife as a museum ship. 

I forget where, but I read several years ago the ship had deteriorated so badly the US Navy threatened to repossess the ship if the state of Texas didn't get serious about taking proper care of it.  It's a little known fact that museum and memorial ships like Texas  are still US Navy property, and are only on loan to the various organizations they're trusted to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Texas_(BB-35)#Museum_ship

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Posted by samfp1943 on Saturday, November 14, 2020 11:00 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The above comments would suggest that LNER 4472 was not properly maintained even prior to its United States tour.

 Recall that it was in the area of 1962/63(?) that British Rail had marked all the 'ilk' of the steam power for 'scrapping'. It was either that or 'preservationists' could come forward and bid on the 'hulks' for their use in 'whatever' direction they wanted to take those examples of BR Steam. 

 I do not know the complete history of 'the story' of Alan Pegler and 'his' #4472, the Flying Scotsman.  One can assume that the 1969 dating of the arrival of the 4472 by ship in Boston,Mass. would have been preceeded by a 'questionable' [as to the depth of the 4472's repairs to make her 'roadworthy(?). Would have required a time period of at least, possibly 2 years(?).

Here is a short Y-T Video of that process:

@ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjkt0BLb-8s

Mr. Pegler brought the 4472 to America9and then Canada) as a representative for British Trade; her consist was all British cars, 2 coaches and an obseration car; there were three cars which contained the 'show' for the British Trade mission. When the British Government 'pulled the status of teade mission...those cars were apparently, returned to the U.K.(?). Mr. Pegler was then on 'his own'. I remember that they went from the Houston Tx area to Canada(?). Pegler was running out of his own money, so the 4472 and train journeyed to California some time in 1972(?). It was put into storage at a U.s. Military facility, near San Francisco(?).    

     This was to 'avoid' legal 'entanglements' for Mr. Pegler; he returned to Britain on a ship, IIRC  a P&O liner,(?) as art of the'crew'(?)  Sometime, in 1973/74 he sold the entire train and 4472; to another English millionaire, who recovered and paid of the Pegler, indebtedness. He then brought it back to the UK.That individual then, at some time, had it sent to Australia, for a 'tour' of that country. 

To 1988 here is a y-t video of The Flying Scotsman  in Australia:

linked @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVzgnWTxzZs

 

 


 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, November 14, 2020 9:55 AM

The above comments would suggest that LNER 4472 was not properly maintained even prior to its United States tour.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, November 13, 2020 10:19 PM

One of the reasons the Scotsman trip went bankrupt was that the new Harold Wilson government didn't think it was a good idea to have a steam powered train used to show off the latest in British products and technology as the train was a travelling British trade show to help with its costs. Wilson pulled the plug and the train was sort of impounded in San Francisco. Pegler had to 'work his passage" back to the U.K. on a cruise ship. 

I well recall the cow catcher, knuckle coupler, headlight and whistle. I was in the York museum in 2004 and had a look at it in the shop when it first arrived there. The boiler tubes had been removed and I saw that they were rotted to hell from oxygen pitting that in several areas had perforated the metal. A pivot on the drive of it was totally worn out and I could move it back and forth on its worn out bushing. The guy that let me into the workshop had the attitude of "what the hell did we get into here?" 

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Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, November 13, 2020 8:58 PM

54light15

I've been to the NYMR three years ago- that is a serious railway. Those Yorkshiremen don't screw around! 

I was at Penn Station in New York with some friends in 1969 when the Flying Scotsman was there. A guy involved with it said how it was almost lost at sea during a storm as it was deck cargo on the ship. In 2004 I was at the museum in York and talked to a guy and mentioned that. He said that it might have been him that told me as he was on the North American trip too. 

  In 1969(Winter?) after the Flying Scotsman arrived in Boston; I was in Birmingham, Al and got to see her up close. Met Alan Pegler there at the Southern Rwy Steam Shop ( Where the #611 and #1218 were then based(?)). At that time she still wore the number 4472.

         But they had Americanized her for operation here: A big high-powered headlight(Pyle?), Janey knuckle coupler, 'cow catcher' and steps, really shiney chromed bell, and a deep steam whistle, on the right side of the smoke box; aqpparently, someone thought that the original BR whistle wasnot 'impressive' enough?. she also had a train of IIRc 6 cars: 2 exhibit cars. three BR coaches and a pullman observation car.  There was also a water car behind the regular tender; I thiought it was interesting because it had a walkway through the car.  It was pretty impressive.   I often wondered what the British fans thought of the 'Americanization' of it?  It was quite a traveled trainset (IIRC some 15,000miles in US and Canada before going back to England. I have n idea as to how far it ran in Australia ? But that was with a differen ownership, after Mr. Peglar bankrupted..

P.S. Here is alinked site with a couple of photos of the #4472 in about 1972 in California.  

See Link @ https://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk/news/full-steam-ahead-flying-scotsman-visits-scotland-weekend-778748#gsc.tab=0

 

 

 


 

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Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, November 13, 2020 8:24 PM

Flintlock76

Thanks for those links NorthBrit!  It's neat to see those folks at the museum take that Trevithick replica out and play with it once in a while!

Even more interesting to think about the world the original came into in 1804,  216 years ago, and how incredibly the world would change in the rest of the 19th Century.   

 

These old British Locomotives are really interesting, but I'd like to add a photo of one of the first steam engines built entirely in the United States:

See photo linked @:  http://cs.trains.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-11-15/7455.CharlestonBFofCdisplay.jpg

A replica of the South Carolina Canal & Railroad's "Best Friend of Charleston" built in 1830 by the West Point Foundry of New York.   [ The original was destroyed in a boiler explosion in 1833 when a fireman blocked the safety valve closed. ]  About 1928 the NRHS Chapter of Charleston had a replica built, and exhibited there. In 1957 the repl;ca was transported to Memphis, Tn. in celebration of the 100th Anniversary of the compleation of the Memphis& Charleston RR (1857). The celebration was called IIRC "The Marriage of the Waters'; symbolized by pouring Ocean water into the Mississippi River { at that time the original station still stood on what was then Bellevue just North of  Madison Ave.)  The M&CRR became a part of the Southern Rwy(now: NS) line .       In abt 2005, the NS took the 'Best Friend' to Chattanooga, Tn where it was refurbished, and 'campaigned' by the NS as part of a 2 year lease fron City of Charleston.    

 

 

 


 

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Friday, November 13, 2020 1:16 PM

Overmod

 

 
Paul Milenkovic
That contraption with all of those beams and links:

 

Many more beams and links in the second one than in the first!

 

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4K0xXYGvYK8/hqdefault.jpg

Incidentally there is more to those beams and links on the 'original' than meets the eye, and Prof. Milenkovic is just the person to analyze them for us!

This is not 'aping' of older beam mining engines.  Note the absence of precision turning or milling/planing in that era -- good crossheads for the cylinders would have been a relative impossibility.  The beams give quartered and cross-equalized thrust to the wheels from upright cylinders of amazingly long stroke and thin piston-rod diameter.  See all the tension rods used to keep alignment?  Be interesting to see this described from a linkage expert's perspective...

Grasshopper engines on the early B&O are similarly rigged, likewise to make the things work in practice with 1820s-level techniques.  

 

There is not much more to add to your explanation apart from that the links and beams form a version of a Watt's linkage (sometimes called a watts linkage).  It is essentially a four-bar linkage 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt%27s_linkage

Hey, there are only three "bars" or links?  Yes, the fourth link is "ground" to which two of the other links are fixed, forming a closed loop of joints and links.

Watt's linkage does a good job approximating straight-line motion with a simple (?) mechanism.  A simpler straight-line motion is the bottom arc of a single pendulum link, but it is not nearly as accurate as Watt's (the name is Watt.  James Watt.)  Yes, the same Watt credited with the invention of a greatly improved steam engine over Newcomen's.

In a beam engine, however, the Watt's link is embedded in the forest of links and you have to look for it.

By the way, how do you change a "power assembly" on a Deltic Diesel?

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, November 13, 2020 9:11 AM

Paul Milenkovic
That contraption with all of those beams and links:

Many more beams and links in the second one than in the first!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4K0xXYGvYK8/hqdefault.jpg

Incidentally there is more to those beams and links on the 'original' than meets the eye, and Prof. Milenkovic is just the person to analyze them for us!

This is not 'aping' of older beam mining engines.  Note the absence of precision turning or milling/planing in that era -- good crossheads for the cylinders would have been a relative impossibility.  The beams give quartered and cross-equalized thrust to the wheels from upright cylinders of amazingly long stroke and thin piston-rod diameter.  See all the tension rods used to keep alignment?  Be interesting to see this described from a linkage expert's perspective...

Grasshopper engines on the early B&O are similarly rigged, likewise to make the things work in practice with 1820s-level techniques.  

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Posted by NorthBrit on Friday, November 13, 2020 7:52 AM

Paul Milenkovic

 

That contraption with all of those beams and links:

Is that a Deltic with the cowl removed? Whistling

 

This one perhapsBig Smile

 

David

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Friday, November 13, 2020 6:30 AM

NorthBrit

Yes.  A lovely engine.   There are a number of engines that visit and are run on the railway.

Beamish Museum has another railway section with very early locomotives.

 

 

The museum is well worth a visit (when this Covid stuff ends).

David

 

That contraption with all of those beams and links:

Is that a Deltic with the cowl removed? Whistling

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
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Posted by NorthBrit on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 1:30 PM

 

 

 

At 'Locomotion' Railway Museum,  Shildon, County Durham, UK.

'Sans Pareil'   the real one

 

Next to it a replica of 'Sans Pareil'

 

David

To the world you are someone.    To someone you are the world

I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 1:23 PM

I would think that a wooden ship should stay in the water- look what happened to the Cutty Sark a few years ago. Wood shrinks and warps if it's not kept wet. Steel rusts and rots if it is. I understand that the Vasa is still kept wet with sprays to keep it from falling apart but I could be wrong about that. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:51 AM

kgbw49
I wonder if some existing preserved ships in the US might someday get similar treatment.

Permanent drydocking like the British have done with some of their ships isn't a bad idea, it would certainly save on maintenance costs, salt water is certainly some nasty corrosive stuff.   Certainly the initial costs would be heavy, but would be worth it in the long term. 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, November 11, 2020 10:15 AM

Interesting the way the Japanese have "floated" that ship on dry land. It probably reduces the maintenance cost considerably over the long term. I wonder if some existing preserved ships in the US might someday get similar treatment.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, November 10, 2020 7:47 AM

Ah, but there is  a preserved British-built pre-dreadnought battleship, and you'll never guess where it is!  Well, maybe some of you will...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyzKKCLJIJA&t=9s  

Backshop mentioned Warspite.  There was a great fighting ship that deserved preservation.  She fought to the end, breaking her towline and throwing herself on the rocks at Land's End rather than go to the scrapyard.  

They say ships are inanimate objects without spirits or souls, but sometimes you have to wonder.  

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