I Really Appreciate the UP Steam Program, and I Hope to see it continue as Great of a Success, or Greater than it was under Steve Lee.
Sometimes that seems to be Wishful Thinking, but the program is still being funded, so there is still Hope.
i too would Love to see the 4014 under Steam again, imagine the 4014, 3985 and the 844 all with Fires in their Bellies at the same time.
Hey, I can Hope/Dream can't I?
Heck, I even play the Lottery, so to ME, Anything is Possible
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Spot on Doug.... But let's hope they can pull off the big boy project.
Dakotafred wrote:
Who cares about how many Challengers were built or the vital stats on the Big Boy?
Well, OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU, but there are others here who have intrests that differ from your own. Did you have a rough day on the playground? Probably even took your ball and went home, when the game wasn't going your way too!
It is a Shame that UP is willing to spend the money on the Steam Program, but doesn't seem to be getting much of a return on their investment.
But, what you and Derek seem to forget, is that the Steam Program is a DISCRETIONARY PR Program, not something that is mandatory. Some here give the impression that UP OWES them a Steam Program, NEWSFLASH, They DON'T.
Doug
DEREK HOWELL Well that begs to question if any work of consequence is being done. 844's boiler was good till 2019. But here we are in 2015 with 844 gutted years early because the boiler was packed full of mud and the tubes scaled beyond belief. The current management decided to change proven water treatment and blowdown programs for no reason. There use to be a lot of equipment that Cheyenne was tasked with keeping in service. Is 844 in service? Are the E units in service? Was the Rotary ready to go if this winter caused problems? Is 6936 in service? 3985? No to all of the above. Now we have a big boy in the house for over a year. There hasn't been one single update about any work. Look at the other steam programs around the country. Santa Fe 2926 gives weekly updates of all the work they are getting done with all volunteer labor. N&W 611 had a load of coal delivered this week for the first test fire. My point is that if any work was being done on anything there would be updates. All that I have seen is work on the building and a bunch of new tools. As far as the crew no one with any experience will work with the current manager. Under previous management the only turn over in the crew was mostly limited to retirement. Its very telling that all the previous crew members have left. UP has been advertising for a certified boiler maker for months. Until they find one no work can be done on any of the steam locomotive boilers. I love the UP steam program and was very excited about the big boy but I'm not holding my breath on it getting done anytime soon. Don't believe what I have said? No problem doesnt bother me a bit. Just remember that since rails have been laid in Cheyenne almost 150 years ago there has always been a steam engine in service ready to work...that is till now.
Well that begs to question if any work of consequence is being done.
844's boiler was good till 2019. But here we are in 2015 with 844 gutted years early because the boiler was packed full of mud and the tubes scaled beyond belief. The current management decided to change proven water treatment and blowdown programs for no reason. There use to be a lot of equipment that Cheyenne was tasked with keeping in service. Is 844 in service? Are the E units in service? Was the Rotary ready to go if this winter caused problems? Is 6936 in service? 3985? No to all of the above. Now we have a big boy in the house for over a year. There hasn't been one single update about any work. Look at the other steam programs around the country. Santa Fe 2926 gives weekly updates of all the work they are getting done with all volunteer labor. N&W 611 had a load of coal delivered this week for the first test fire.
My point is that if any work was being done on anything there would be updates. All that I have seen is work on the building and a bunch of new tools.
As far as the crew no one with any experience will work with the current manager. Under previous management the only turn over in the crew was mostly limited to retirement. Its very telling that all the previous crew members have left. UP has been advertising for a certified boiler maker for months. Until they find one no work can be done on any of the steam locomotive boilers. I love the UP steam program and was very excited about the big boy but I'm not holding my breath on it getting done anytime soon.
Don't believe what I have said? No problem doesnt bother me a bit. Just remember that since rails have been laid in Cheyenne almost 150 years ago there has always been a steam engine in service ready to work...that is till now.
Derek tells it like it is. Elsewhere on this thread, there seems to be a lot of willful denial about what is going on in Cheyenne. Look at the pudding, people -- no drivers turning!
And, as I said in an earlier post, just go to the Internet and see what the news is and what people are saying. Who cares about how many Challengers were built or the vital stats on the Big Boy?
Challenger3980,
Thanks for the correction to my post on Big Boy. I changed the figures as you were correct in my mis interpretation of Bruce's data. The 215 total build for Challenger design was undoubtedly for the copies of this is 4-6-6-4 type used on Northern Pacific, Western Pacific, Denver & Rio Grande Western, Western Maryland, Clinchfield RR, and Delaware and Hudson. It appears that only Union Pacific loved the design enough to save two examples. Hard to figure as the locomotive design was truely a great one. I would think Union Pacific would have a better passenger engine in the UP 3985 Challenger, the UP 4014 Big Boy was a freight locomotive for sure. However, the "Biggest is the Best" and "Most Famous" titles are sure to push the Big Boy into passenger service - something I am not sure it was ever built to do. We will have to see just how much speed they can get out of her commonly held 60 mph speed limit. Challenger was suposed to be good for 70 mph "back in the day" wonder if they ever topped it?
Doc
Dr D., Alfred Bruce had his numbers wrong, UP rostered 105 Challengers, not "close to 200"
From UP's own website:
It is one of 105 Challengers built for Union Pacific between 1936 and 1943
UP had 25, not 24 Big Boys, #4000-4024. The Challengers numbering changed both by Class, and fuel type, the "Early" Challengers were originally #'ed in the 3900 class, then later re-numbered in the 3800 class, the "Late" Challengers were then #'ed in the 3900 class, with both types renumbered into the 3700 class if/when converted to oil firing.
The 3985 was retired as a dirt burner, and even burned coal after being returned to service, later when the 3985 was converted to oil firing in excursion/PR service, being the ONLY Challenger in service there was no need to renumber her, and she retained the 3900 class #, even though she then was oil fired.
Dakotafred,
Sorry to hear that you had friends leaving UP Steam Program. Hard to see them go and not feel the pain of the changes. Corporate "shake up" is often unexpected and bitter. Friend of mine just retired from UP as engineer. Spent most of his life moving freight from Omaha to Cheyenne, can't tell from the way he talks, but the "camera on the engineer" program was not a pleasant subject for him. John Leslie was quite a steam fan in his youth but as a professional engineer he lost his taste for hobby railroading.
Thought I would share some of Alfred Bruce commets on the UP 4000 series.
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Big Boy 4-8-8-4 Type
The 4-8-8-4 type has been built only with four simple cylinders. It probably represents the maximum development of the articulated steam locomotive engine with a reasonable axle loading for manifest-freight train operation, since it incorporated both four-wheel leading and trailing trucks to provide maximum boiler capacity and riding stability at high operating speeds. It had a very even distribution of weight between front and rear engine units and was well balanced in every way. As on all eight-coupled-axle articulated engines, the firebox was relatively shallow and located over the rear drivers and trailer truck. But since it had ample grate area and firebox volume, the boiler steamed well with thin fires and provided ample power.
The basic problem on the 4-8-8-4 type was, of course, to obtain the best firebox and ashpan conditions that the clearances permitted with the 68 in. diameter drivers and a height of 133 inches from the rail to center of boiler. Service performance records indicate that this problem was solved satisfactorily. The firebox crown sheet was about 29 feet in length, but gave no trouble with uncovering on the maximum 2.2 per cent grades because of the presence of an ample water space over the crown of 32 inches.
Another problem was the equalization of the four-wheel leading truck with the drivers of the front engine unit. This had not been necessary on the 4-6-6-4 Challenger.
The 4-8-8-4 type of articulated engine was built by the American Locomotive Company only for the Union Pacific, first in 1941 and later in 1944, and was known as the Big Boy on this road. The design was outstanding because its 68 inch drivers and flat boiler-support contacts enabled it to reach speeds of 60 miles per hour or more in daily operation. It was conservatively rated at 7,000 horsepower at 40 miles per hour, although its maximum output was probably at least 7,500 horsepower or more.
These engines were built to include all improvements that tended toward better operation, such as cast-steel integral bed frames, roller bearings on all axles, accessible high-pressure steam pipes to the front engine unit, 300 psi steam pressure. The total weight of the last engines built in 1944 was 772,200 pounds with a driving-axle loading of 68,000 pounds.
These are still the heaviest steam locomotive engines in the world today with reciprocating pistons and direct-rod drive. There were 25 of these locomotives built to reduce helper service on the heavy grades eastbound over the Wasatch Mountains out of Ogden, Utah to Green River, Wyoming, on the Union Pacific Railroad.
-------------------
Seems Union Pacific was very aware of the unique nature of Big Boy. Only two 4-6-6-4 Challenger locomotives were saved by the company out of a roster of close to 105 engines. Fortunately, owing to the unique nature of UP 4000 engines eight locomotives were saved out of the 25 constructed. This unprecidented survival rate is 30% of existing locomotives. Of all articulated steam built in America UP 4000 Big Boy series represented .8% of total production. These are truely impressive figures. Largest locomotive, largest surviving number of the total produced. I guess when it comes to Big Boy - every thing is big!
(numbers corrected per Challenger3980 post)
----------------------
Big Boy Statistics - 1941 build of UP 4002
Boiler Pressure - 300 lbs.
Cylinder size - (all 4) - 23 3/4" x 32"
Driving wheel diameter - 68"
Tractive effort - 135,400 lbs
Factor of adhesion - 4.02
Boiler maximum outside diameter - 107 inch
Boiler tube length - 22 feet 0 inches
Combustion chamber - 112 inches
Firebox size - 235 inch x 96 inch
Grate area - 150.3 square feet
Heating surface evaporative area - 5,755 sq. ft.
Superheat surface - 2,073 sq. ft.
Driver wheelbase - 47 feet 3 inches
Engine wheelbase - 72 feet 5 1/2 inches
Engine and tender wheelbase - 117 feet 7 inches
Engine weight on drivers - 545,000 lbs.
Engine weight - 772,000 lbs.
Tender capacity - 25,000 gallons
Tender weight - 435,000 lbs.
What might be happening at up, and I have no way to be sure, is a lot might just be retiring. Some times things just cycle that way. It can't see up pushing folks out the door when they are ramping things up to get the big boy done.
Dr D When I was a member of Michigan State Trust For Railway Preservation the group the restored C&O 1225/ PM 1225 the group was constantly loosing talented people. Do you think individuals can devote a lifetime to this type of activity? Generations of workers came and went. One student at Michigan State University, David Jones, if I remember, stayed for years after his degree was obtained - I believe in teaching English. David hung around just to keep working on PM 1225 while others went on with their lives and careers. David if I remember sadly came to one of our engineering meetings one day and told us that he just couldn't continue - he loved the fellowship and the club but he had to "get on with his life!" - his parents and girl friend were calling him "to be more than what the club was!" - to be the person "he was supposed to be!" - he had to take a teaching position in New England! - David sadly left us. How long can any one of us take time out to do some of these things no matter how much we want to do them? If we are lucky we get to do them for a while! ... My dad - veteran soldier of General McArthur and the invasion of the Pacific Islands used to say to me - "Son, see that cemetary over there? It's filled with 'big wheels' this world cannot live without!"
When I was a member of Michigan State Trust For Railway Preservation the group the restored C&O 1225/ PM 1225 the group was constantly loosing talented people. Do you think individuals can devote a lifetime to this type of activity? Generations of workers came and went. One student at Michigan State University, David Jones, if I remember, stayed for years after his degree was obtained - I believe in teaching English. David hung around just to keep working on PM 1225 while others went on with their lives and careers. David if I remember sadly came to one of our engineering meetings one day and told us that he just couldn't continue - he loved the fellowship and the club but he had to "get on with his life!" - his parents and girl friend were calling him "to be more than what the club was!" - to be the person "he was supposed to be!" - he had to take a teaching position in New England! - David sadly left us.
How long can any one of us take time out to do some of these things no matter how much we want to do them? If we are lucky we get to do them for a while! ...
My dad - veteran soldier of General McArthur and the invasion of the Pacific Islands used to say to me - "Son, see that cemetary over there? It's filled with 'big wheels' this world cannot live without!"
Spare us, Doc!
These people bailing on the U.P. steam program are not volunteers, but regular U.P. employees, and paid accordingly. Their departure is costing them wages, benefits and seniority.
And your father, if he said what you say he did, was merely borrowing, and mangling his borrowing, to boot. The exact quote, which comes from Charles DeGaulle, is: "The graveyard is full of indispensible men."
Considering what they're often working on, what exactly is your point?
So at what point do we stop calling Cheyenne a steam shop and start calling it historic equipment maintanice facility? Their hasnt been any steam there for going on two years and counting.... Just saying.
Any major railroad such as Union Pacific can and will find the talent it needs to run its operations. The good news is that Ed Dickens is developing a full steam shop facility on the location of the major company backshop. I realize that steam fans are often very jealous of those picked for position but other railroaders just see it as a job in public relations and others its just a paycheck. These programs like UP steam are larger than any one individual or group of individuals.
How long can any one of us take time out to do some of these things no matter how much we want to do them? If we are lucky we get to do them for a while!
-----------------------------
The men who built the great steam fleet of the Union Pacific Railroad are gone. The bankers and railroaders that funded the locomotive builds are gone. The American Locomotive designers and engineers who constructed them are gone. The shop staff that built UP 4014 on the erecting floor are gone - so the steel makers and the machinists. The engineers that knew the day to day operation of every one of the UP 4000 series are gone - every crew that ran a locomotive in revenue service - are gone or just about gone. The boiler makers, the round house wipers - all gone.
Because its a living technology that gets handed on - lost - found again and reclaimed again!
UP 4014, UP 3985, UP 844 will run again - better than before - because it's in the will of the people to do so, and also the heritage of a great American railroad to do this thing.
----------------------------
"So come away and hear the singing of the Lark! Its like a dream out of a blessed sleep!"
If you shop around the Internet a little, you'll find plenty of evidence that the new program head is capital-T Trouble. In the best, or worst, U.P. tradition -- remembering people like Art Shoener and others -- he seems to have the company's full support. Little wonder the hands are bailing.
It looks like UP is running into a variation of what happened with CB&Q when they decided to drop the fires on 4960 and 5632. In this case, a lot of institutional memory and knowledge is heading out the door and the new hires and new management is going to have to learn everything just short of re-inventing the wheel. The steam program may be entering its final years.
stdgauge The reason they are hiring is they have have had OVER 100% employee turnover in the past 4 years. Not one of the original crew (Steve Lee's group) is left. THAT is why they are hiring for the program. Note that all the experience that these employees had is GONE. I hate to say it, but I am VERY concerned about the state of the UP Steam Program.
The reason they are hiring is they have have had OVER 100% employee turnover in the past 4 years. Not one of the original crew (Steve Lee's group) is left. THAT is why they are hiring for the program. Note that all the experience that these employees had is GONE.
I hate to say it, but I am VERY concerned about the state of the UP Steam Program.
I have to wonder what is going on there. It sounds like a thorough going housecleaning, for want of a better term. Might help explain the business with boiler water treatment methods (apparently using pool chemicals) on 844 referenced in an earlier thread last year I believe. If the experienced shop crew (and leadership) is heading out the door, UP really will be in trouble if they are unable to recruit equally experienced replacements. If not, I would regretfully expect more bad news.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
Little history here on one of the greatest steam restoration events in the United States in recent years. Union Pacific retrieving a 4-8-8-4 from a museum and preparing to use it in public relations operation! The reclaiming of it steam heritage and the largest steam locomotive ever built going back into service! This is a world class event on any calendar.
Alfred Bruce comments on the big articulated designs of Union Pacific.
-------------------------
Challenger 4-6-6-4 Type
The first 4-6-6-4 type articulated engine with four simple cylinders (this type has never been developed as a compound) was built by the American Locomotive Company in 1936 for the Union Pacific Railroad to supplement the existing three-cylinder 4-12-2 type Union Pacific engines in higher speed operation. They were immediately successful that they were adopted in quantity by the Union Pacific and by other roads having manifest-freight-train service for which they were very well adapted because their riding stability was superior to that of any other existing articulated engine when they were running at higher speeds.
The total weight of the 4-6-6-4 type Challenger articulated engine was very evenly distributed between the front and back engine units. In general the weight on the front unit was equal to about 90 percent of the weight on the back unit. This feature and the guiding qualities of the four-wheel leading truck was necessary for the proper balance required at high speed. Although they were not applied to the first engines of this type, front boiler supports with flat bearing surfaces, together with only a working vertical clearance on the single vertical articulation pin, were introduced about 1940. Now the front engine had only the vertical movement permitted by its spring deflections, as in the case of the rear rigid-chasis engine. The result was the most stable-riding atriculated engine ever built and one that could be safely operated at speeds of up to 60 and 70 miles per hour. There are no smoother riding articulated steam locomotive engines built than the 4-6-6-4 type on the Union Pacific and the Delaware & Hudson railways at the speeds mentioned. The flat bearing-plate surfaces required careful alignment on the erecting floor, but they were well worth the extra effort.
Because of the speeds required, this type has always been built with 69 inch drivers which lengthened the engine to such an extent that the firebox had to be located over the rear drivers and the trailer truck. Consequently, the grates were generally blocked off at the rear of the throat to provide clearance for the rear drivers as was also developed in the design of the three-cylinder 4-12-2 type Union Pacific engines. The firebox was relatively shallow, but it had an extended internal combusion chamber which provided ample firebox volume for the available grate area so that the boilers were all good steamers with the thin fires used with mechanical stokers.
On these six-coupled-axle articulated chasis engines with 69 inch drivers, the designers of steam locomotives must choose between producing an engine with the best riding stability and producing one with the best combustion conditions. Both may be had in a single rigid frame engine with five coupled axles, but not in a rigid frame engine with six coupled axles and 69 inch drivers such as the 4-12-2 type Union Pacific design.
The 4-6-6-4 type Challenger type of articulated engine undoubtedly had the best riding stability at high speeds and at the same time had combustion conditions that have proved satisfactory on many hundreds of steam locomotive engines. The 2-6-6-4 type such as Norfolk & Western 1200 series undoubtedly had the best combustion conditions obtainable and at the same time had riding stability at MEDIUM speeds that had proved satisfactory to the users. Thus, the choice must really be determined by the operating speed - and this is generally the procedure that is followed. The 4-6-6-4 type Challenger was well balanced and accessible, and had adequate ashpan capacity. In addition, it had all modern improvements, including integral cast steel bed frames and roller bearings on all axles.
The 4-6-6-4 type Challenger has been adopted for manifest service on the Union, Pacific RR, the Northern Pacific RR, the Western Pacific RR, and the Denver & Rio Grande Western RR, the Western Maryland RR, the Clinchfield RR, and the Delaware & Hudson RR. It was last built in 1944 for the Union Pacific Railroad.
There have been 215 of the 4-6-6-4 type Challenger articlated engines built in the United States. This is roughly 7% of all articulated steam locomotives constructed and is an equal tie to the 210 of the 2-6-6-4 type which also share 7% of the total build number.
--------------------------
To understand Big Boy 4014 you really need to understand what preceded it - The Challenger! Although not the largest, I would venture to say it was the Best! Lets hear it for UP 3985 - A Standard Of Excellence!
------------------
Challenger Statistics - 1936 build of UP 3902
Boiler pressure - 255 lbs.
Cylinder size - (all 4) - 22" x 32"
Drive wheel diameter - 69"
Tractive effort - 97,400 lbs
Factor of adhesion - 4.0
Boiler maximum outside diameter - 102 inch
Boiler tube length - 22 foot
Combustion chamber - 86 inches
Firebox size - 213 inch x 108 inch
Grate area - 108.2 square feet
Heating surface evaporative area - 5,391 sq. ft.
Superheat surface - 1,650 sq. ft.
Driver wheelbase - 35 feet 1 inch
Engine wheelbase - 59 feet 11 inches
Engine and tender wheelbase - 97 feet 11 inches
Engine weight on drivers - 386,000 lbs.
Engine weight - 566,000 lbs.
Tender capacity - 18,350 gallons
Tender weight - 310,000 lbs.
I was under the impression that they burned the same fuel that the diesels do.
Isn't all of the oil used in UP steam engines the old oil removed during oil changes?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
The UP channel on YouTube has a recent video which mentions ongoing Cheyenne shop changes. Apparently diesel related activity is being reduced / moved to other facilities to make more square footage available for steam engine refurbishment - a good sign.
OTOH I'm a little skeptical about their new shop manager - he is relatively new to UP and has an IT background rather than RR mechanical. Hmmm.
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It was in the newswire a few days ago. Essentially, 844 is likely to return to steam in 2016 (with them hoping for Fall 2015), the restoration timeline for the 4014 is still aiming towards operation by 2019, and the 3985 isn't retired.
Not to mention that they're hiring people for the program. Been several job listings posted over the past few months, including this one.
http://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/boilermaker-steam-JV_IC1138322_KO0,17_IE691.htm?jl=1368612950&utm_source=jobalert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=ja-jobtitle&utm_campaign=jobAlertAlert&paoIdKey=MA==
Odd move for a company that's getting out of this.
Firelock76 Thanks for the kind words Puffy, but I wasn't the one who was right. The late Mr. Drury was, I just passed on his information, that's all. By the way, if you ever see a copy of Drury's "Guide to North American Steam", grab it! It's out of print now as I understand, but it's a real gold mine of information. Maybe Kalmbach will print it again if there's enough demand. How about it, Kalmbach?
Thanks for the kind words Puffy, but I wasn't the one who was right. The late Mr. Drury was, I just passed on his information, that's all.
By the way, if you ever see a copy of Drury's "Guide to North American Steam", grab it! It's out of print now as I understand, but it's a real gold mine of information. Maybe Kalmbach will print it again if there's enough demand.
How about it, Kalmbach?
So what did up say?
They just gave a presentation a few days ago. Not sure why anyone thinks that there's any trouble there. Almost like a few are hoping that there is.
Odd they made such a media event out of moving her. Now no up dates. Got to make you wonder.
From what I read on other forums, I'm not very hopeful about the UP Steam program.
UP steam shop doesn't say much.
What has it been now, 2 reports on the shop in the past year, and nothing on the actual teardown and inspection of the Big Boy?
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