Could we please stop the back-and-forth about what is happening?
This thread is about the Big Boy 4014, not the polictics of the UP steam program and what has happened in past years. If that is what you so desire to discuss, keep the mud-slinging in private message, or start a new thread.
Shadow the Cats ownerI have gone back thru and watched the updates they have posted on youtube. In them they described how the Separator had quit working allowing scale and sludge buildup and that 3 different drainage tubes that were supposed to end up under the firebox instead had been routed into the firebox and various lines that should have been steel tubes had been replaced by rubber hoses by the last crew to run her. Sorry if your running a locomotive that has never been retired at all by your employer you do not jury rig repairs. I looked at my husbands old issues of Trains magazine when 844 was put back into service after her overhaul in the 90's by Steve Lee. Even on her Break-in run things did not sound right to me back then looking back. He was like she has a pair of Air Compressors she can run with one of them out of service or the Diesel helper can provide the air needed for the train. HELLO that is not how you run a railroad steam program.
stdgauge,
Missing Fantrips! Yes, I will grant you that there is more going on today about meticulious restoration of UP 844 into "museum piece" condition than gett'n her down the road on another excursion! Possibly this restoration effort will become the ground work for real workable steam program in the future. Imagine an engine of this restoration quality actually running though!
Whatever the case, you are not going to change Union Pacific's plans about having Ed Dickens in charge of whatever game they are up to by whining about it. Clarity of vision is needed here.
Water Treatment and Boiler Blow Down Procedures or lack thereof also seem to be one of the main concerns about the damage to the FEF - as they are on all steam locomotives. Just why this procedure was altered on UP 844 is unclear.
I believe the boiler blow down procedures may be changing as part of an Enviornmental Protection Agency concern for random toxic ground pollution covered under new guidelines limiting the locations and manor in which this can be performed.
Similar enviornmental concerns govern the dumping of firebox waste ash and other combustion products onto the ground to say nothing of the oil and exhaust smoke pollution issues. Hasn't California prohibited railroad steam locomotive exhaust? Seems that many things we once took for granted like passenger car waste may now become some kind of future haz-mat issues. The days of smoking it up for a fan trip run by surely must be over! Possibly UP may have concerns over other looming politically correct issues.
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I know Ross Rowland and have ridden in the cab of C&O 614 with him. Rowland and McCormack, however knowledgable do not constitute the responsibile, opinions and decisions of a Class 1 railroad like Union Pacific.
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Yah, I heard the part where Ed Dickens talks about being a M60 machine gunner in the Army. I would think they would have chosen a former Army officer for leadership in a managment position such as the UP steam shop. A US Army sergeant might make a better foreman than a steam program director.
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It is what it is!
Doc
Dr D stdgauge, I have done most of the steam mechanical activities that Ed Dickens and crew are doing on UP 844 only I worked on PM 1225. Replacing and installing the large studs into the boiler plate for accessory mounting, working on the boiler feed ball check valves and piping. Reaming out the multiple throttle assembly, hanging the entire locomotive throttle from quadrant to valve head. Removing the side rods and valve gear, working on the brake rigging. I guess I never did large scale "hot riveting" like they are doing to the firebox interior. I have even turned the large brass main rod bushings on the huge shop lathe and done it to blueprint spec. I find little or nothing to complain about Ed Dickens and his work crew - in fact they have very high standards of work. I feel bad that Union Pacific moved out your friends and "the former steam crew" but that's the company politics of getting fired. So do us all a favor and quit complaining about the "true steam crew," we are all stuck with the Ed Dickens administration and would like to enjoy this one spectacular steam restoration event in peace. As with any crew, all are different with different focus, different strengths and abilities - and the new Ed Dickens bunch is here even if they are more like museum conservators and curators. I am just real dam glad that someone is rebuilding the 4-8-4 - any 4-8-4 to that degree of quality. And they also have the entire class 1 Union Pacific railroad to run the locomotive on! Try to find that anywhere else in the USA besides Cumbries & Toltec Senic RR or Durango Silverton RR. Likely UP 844 will run the remainder of your and my lifetime! I'm glad, arn't you? -------------------- Doc
I have done most of the steam mechanical activities that Ed Dickens and crew are doing on UP 844 only I worked on PM 1225.
Replacing and installing the large studs into the boiler plate for accessory mounting, working on the boiler feed ball check valves and piping. Reaming out the multiple throttle assembly, hanging the entire locomotive throttle from quadrant to valve head. Removing the side rods and valve gear, working on the brake rigging.
I guess I never did large scale "hot riveting" like they are doing to the firebox interior.
I have even turned the large brass main rod bushings on the huge shop lathe and done it to blueprint spec.
I find little or nothing to complain about Ed Dickens and his work crew - in fact they have very high standards of work.
I feel bad that Union Pacific moved out your friends and "the former steam crew" but that's the company politics of getting fired.
So do us all a favor and quit complaining about the "true steam crew," we are all stuck with the Ed Dickens administration and would like to enjoy this one spectacular steam restoration event in peace.
As with any crew, all are different with different focus, different strengths and abilities - and the new Ed Dickens bunch is here even if they are more like museum conservators and curators.
I am just real dam glad that someone is rebuilding the 4-8-4 - any 4-8-4 to that degree of quality. And they also have the entire class 1 Union Pacific railroad to run the locomotive on! Try to find that anywhere else in the USA besides Cumbries & Toltec Senic RR or Durango Silverton RR.
Likely UP 844 will run the remainder of your and my lifetime! I'm glad, arn't you?
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Doc, we don't always agree, but this time you nailed it. Company culture is company culture. Its time to stop listening to rumors and let the up get on with it.
I don't know if everyone one saw up latest financial results. But they took a big hit, we are lucky they haven't scaled back their steam program like ns has.
So less complaining and bit more support. Their are far worse possible out comes out their.
I fired off a question on the amount of asbestos found on the 844 and 4014 via the Facebook group and wheter they knew about the asbestos on 4014 when they took it from CA. The answer I got back was they where fully aware of all the Asbestos on the 4014 and where going to remidiate during its overhaul as scheduled. They found close to 60 Lbs of asbestos total on 844 and they had paperwork signed off by Steve Lee himself stating that all asbestos had been removed in the 70's by certified personal.
Shadow the Cats ownerI went over all the reports I found in the Facebook 844 group. They did find asbestos on the 844 in the air brake stand. It had never been apart in the last 60 years. Some of the packing in it was asbestos according to both a video and other people. 60 years without tearing apart the brake stand. As for your turnover question why has it been higher easy the new guy has instituted Quality control on the work plus is demanding someone be held accountable for their work for the first time in years. I guess no one ever had to be held responsible if it broke down on the road. He wants a reliable engine on the road away from Cheyenne. The sludge in the boiler they found so much other stuff wrong with the boiler that the sludge was the least of their concerns. Stuff like Busted Stay bolts improper mounted stays also 2 of the 4 washout plugs had not been removed for 30+ years how do they know that from the amount of Rust on them. They literally had to cut them out of the boiler. The Stays that where broken not one had the weep hole in them so they only found them broken when they tore down the boiler. The tool car getting damaged was an accident.
What about all of it that he missed on 4014???
Sorry, too many stories coming out of Cheyenne. I trust the true, proven experts.
stdgauge S. Connor Don't forget the asbestos they found on 844 too... WRONG. It was found on 4014 AFTER it was moved back to Wyoming. Yet another error....
S. Connor Don't forget the asbestos they found on 844 too...
Don't forget the asbestos they found on 844 too...
Tell that to Mr. Dickens. From the man himself, they found asbestos on 844: https://youtu.be/YsPl73r6i18?t=11m37s
Sorry, I hear a lot of "stuff" coming from Cheyenne, and it is not adding up. I trust people like Wes Camp, Steve Lee, Bob Krieger, Jack Wheelihan, the whole WRRC group, etc.
They've been working on and with steam locomotives for decades, and have a great track record. They've also proven MANY things that have been said from the current group wrong. And there are other sucessful steam operators who say the same thing - the current UP Steam shop is not good!
Let's look at just a few examples recently:
1. Turnover at the UP Steam shop has been 200% in recent years
2. The fact that the boiler of 844 is full of sludge is due to changing long-successful water treatment programs and not doing proper blow-downs.
3. Flat-spotting the drivers
4. Wrecking the tool car
5. Others, which i won't go into here
I am hoping for the best, but I fear the worst until some things (people!) change in Cheyenne.
Don't forget the asbestos they said they found on 844 too...
I joined the 844 community on Facebook they are got all 58 tubes reinstalled in her plus started on all the Superheaters they said. From what was being said in previous updates of what they found in teardown that problems were being hidden. The airbrake stand had not been rebuilt for 60 years some of the piping under the cab was original according to some with inside knowledge. The kicker was what they found with some of the parts that Steve Lee supposedly rebuilt in 1994. They had just been repainted not stripped and gone thru. They found studs corroded off and other issues that were older than the last Overhaul. In one video the new guy claims that part of the reversor what ever that is had so much wear in it they were amazed that it even worked.
that is what I head too, but I would have liked to see the locomotive operate with caol first
blue streak 1Here is a minor update on both 844 & 4014. Rebuilt brake control & stand. Any one know what the brake type is ( such as 26L ) ?
Clearly labeled in the video as an 8ET. His choice of words explaining what the automatic brake system does is a bit strange, as if it were unfamiliar.
I hope everyone noted the last few sentences about how they have all the 'subassemblies' done and are going to start bolting the locomotive back together ... that shuld not really take them all that long, if all the 'quality assurance' stuff has been done.
844
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Holy crap they really are going authentic, I would have thought for sure they would convert to a 26L for commonality with the rest of their diesel fleet.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Here is a minor update on both 844 & 4014. Rebuilt brake control & stand. Any one know what the brake type is ( such as 26L ) ?
http://www.up.com/aboutup/community/community_ties/steam-update-2-26.htm
I'd love to see even minor updates, anything.
Dr D Yes, I forsee a time when UP steam excursions will not be pulled by sleek passenger engines with all air conditioned coaches - Yes, I forsee a time when a "new age" steam excursion will have paying passengers to just ride in the boxcars and the open gondolas pulled at 20 to 40 mph by UP 5511 or UP 9000 with a hot coffee pot in the Union Pacific wooden caboose - with a hobo guitar player struming "This is Your Land This is my Land!" UP 4023 vs. UP 5511 - as fates would have it! Victory not always to fastest, the biggest or the most deserving - that's IRONY my friend! It's the experience of the human heart where nothing really makes sense but just being a falliable human is the only thing that makes sense! Doc
Yes, I forsee a time when UP steam excursions will not be pulled by sleek passenger engines with all air conditioned coaches - Yes, I forsee a time when a "new age" steam excursion will have paying passengers to just ride in the boxcars and the open gondolas pulled at 20 to 40 mph by UP 5511 or UP 9000 with a hot coffee pot in the Union Pacific wooden caboose - with a hobo guitar player struming "This is Your Land This is my Land!"
UP 4023 vs. UP 5511 - as fates would have it! Victory not always to fastest, the biggest or the most deserving - that's IRONY my friend! It's the experience of the human heart where nothing really makes sense but just being a falliable human is the only thing that makes sense!
Good luck in finding Depression Era freight cars for your steam powered drag freight to haul.
I applaud both the NS and UP programs and applaud BNSF's allowing others to steam on their lines. I hope all this continues, and generates far more applause than criticism.
I hear you Leo!
And do you want to know the greatest IRONY of them all! UP 4023 BIG BOY had the lowest mileage of any of the 4-8-8-4 locomotives. The railroad wanted to save one for possible operation so they chose UP 4023 and overhauled her to good condition - then stored her inside the Cheyenne backshop to await future events to unfold.
UP 5011 2-10-2 starred in the company movie "Last of the Giants" then was ordered scrapped - they cut her piston rods with the oxy-acetylene torch! Some junior executive, shop forman, somebody just never filled out her paperwork and sent her to scrap! So UP 5511 just sits there today in the backshop with no record of her existance on paper - at least there wasn't for years - waiting for the future and untold events.
So which engine makes it into possible operating condition today? The giant Big Boy UP 4023 groomed for destiny? The lowly freight drag hog UP 5511 Texas type with one foot in the melting furnace? Shades of the race horse "Seabiscuit!"
As fates would have it - misguided managment puts UP 4023 outside to waste in the rain and weather and UP 5511 hiding in ignominity in the backshop corner comes through to be a real candidate for future restoration!
Whenever I think about this, I also think I'll turn up a few Woodie Guthrie ballads - in honor of UP 5511 - songs like
"This Land Is Your Land" - "Hobo Lullaby" - "Worried Man Blues" - "Goin Down The Road Feeling Bad" - "Hard Travelin" - and "Pastures of Plenty!"
- and dream of the day I will see UP 5511 on a drag freight with a few hobos - myself included - riding the boxcars - surely UP 5511 would accomplish something here that the mighty UP 844 would not - to be a lowly drag freight engine of the Great Depression era!
Dr DThey put 4023 outside to be destroyed by the elements and they began operating in a very small space with very little equipment.
Frusturating to think about, since 30 years ago or so, she'd of been in the best shape of the bunch. Now, she rivals the example at Steamtown for being in the worst shape and was at the bottom of the list when Union Pacific initiated this project.
I'm glad the 3985 escaped after a few years of outside display in Cheyenne. I think she only was static after being kicked out of the roundhouse for 4 years before work started on resurrecting her.
Otherwise, she'd be in the same shape today.
I can remember visiting the UP steam shop in 1968 just 4 years after the last of the steam era. In 1968 it was a marginal operation! Yes they had UP 8444 running as a public relations locomotive - but it was amazing they were able to keep it going.
The roundhouse was in-tact and so was the huge locomotive backshop which housed 3895 Challenger and 4023 Big Boy and the lost 2-10-2 Texas type UP 5511. But the gigantic overhead crane was the ONLY THING that remained in that entire Cheyenne steam backshop built to overhaul at least 40 locomotives - it was entirely and completely empty!
I can remember thinking at the time - "Why wouldn't they have saved at least a rudementary of tools - yes, UP 8444 was living on a corporate good wish and a prayer.
Since that time during the so called "UP great steam train era" they tore down half the backshop and roundhouse. They put 4023 outside to be destroyed by the elements and they began operating in a very small space with very little equipment.
For crying out loud they couldn't even turn locomotive drive wheels and had to take UP 844's flat drivers put them in a gondola and send the to the Strassburg RR in Pennsylvania!
Ed Dickens may be the target of much fan abuse but at least he is presiding over a complete backshop rebuild including massive tooling including the overhead crane and the planned operation of at least three steam railroad giants on an continuing basis.
I foresee the day when UP could contract out the restoration of any steam locomotive in America if they wanted! With newly acquired knowledge and expertise!
I think we need to give Union Pacific the benefit of the doubt here. I realize when Ed Dickens does his videos, it's kinda for the "new age generation," that never saw steam operate in the historic period - and he kinda makes steam loccomotive overhaul look like he's running NASA instead of "beatin your life out with a hammer pounding on drive rods!"
For crying out loud Union Pacific just double tracked half the American continent - how much does this truly modern railroad need to bleed to convince doubters?
Furthermore take a lesson about life - the "romanticism about steam" - the romanticism about anything - is really all about the big expectations we have anyway - because nothing ever lives up to what our dreams would be like.
Well stated. We already have four of the big seven railroads that for the most part want nothing to do with steam. If NS falls to CP it will be five. Meanwhile, one railroad is still willing to own, maintain and operate three 70+-year-old steam locomotives. And not just popguns, but each the equivalent of a 16 inch 50 caliber battleship gun for their category, all being both mountain climbers and fast runners to boot. As for me, I will wait patiently, purchase occasionally off their Web site to support the program, and then be thankful and applaud heartily when they next roll out of the roundhouse, because no matter when those days come, they will be good days indeed.
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